Value of: (D) BRADEN SCHNEIDER (NYR)

[eco's bones]

To be clear, I'm in the minority amongst Ranger fans on this, but I see a lot of sense in spinning Schneider this summer. I like the kid a lot, but it comes down to two ways of viewing this team's roster. Most of the fans (myself included) want to move Trouba the second the NMC turns into a m-NTC and move Scheider up to the 2nd pair. Between naming him captain, the bump in the cap coming up, and just based on previous comments/decisions by NYR brass, I just don't think they see Trouba as an albatross. If you look at if from the (likely) point of view of NYR management, in a world where Fox and Trouba are going to be around for several years on the first and second pair, then suddenly we have a problem.

When you have a young guy on the 3rd pair and he's completely blocked for a bit, he's either going to stagnate from lack of opportunity or earn a salary that doesn't make sense for a guy deployed in a 3rd pair role. The longer he's stuck there, the less value he's going to have.

Considering the stated needs of both teams, I really do think the most logical move is to do something around Schneids and Mittelstadt. Buffalo has a wealth of young centers coming up and could use a good young RD. The Rangers are swimming in wingers but have no centers of note in the system. Trading Schneider and replacing him with someone like Robertson or a FA 3rd pair guy WILL hurt the 3rd pair, but suddenly the Rangers would be three lines deep. Mittelstadt's defensive play would improve team D in a big way. If Chytil can come back, he could be pushed to the RW, solving that issue as well.

It just makes a lot of sense to me.

I don't want to move Trouba either.

 

[blueswede22]

What about a trade involving Justin Faulk?

 

[TBF1972]

Victor Soderstrom, Washington’s ‘24 2nd, Rangers ‘25 2nd and Rangers ‘26 2nd.

the heavy burden of too much change in the pockets.

 

[TGWL]

What about a trade involving Justin Faulk?

You can Faulk right o.. ok, I will not go there.

 

[GAGLine]

To be clear, I'm in the minority amongst Ranger fans on this, but I see a lot of sense in spinning Schneider this summer. I like the kid a lot, but it comes down to two ways of viewing this team's roster. Most of the fans (myself included) want to move Trouba the second the NMC turns into a m-NTC and move Scheider up to the 2nd pair. Between naming him captain, the bump in the cap coming up, and just based on previous comments/decisions by NYR brass, I just don't think they see Trouba as an albatross. If you look at if from the (likely) point of view of NYR management, in a world where Fox and Trouba are going to be around for several years on the first and second pair, then suddenly we have a problem.

When you have a young guy on the 3rd pair and he's completely blocked for a bit, he's either going to stagnate from lack of opportunity or earn a salary that doesn't make sense for a guy deployed in a 3rd pair role. The longer he's stuck there, the less value he's going to have.

Considering the stated needs of both teams, I really do think the most logical move is to do something around Schneids and Mittelstadt. Buffalo has a wealth of young centers coming up and could use a good young RD. The Rangers are swimming in wingers but have no centers of note in the system. Trading Schneider and replacing him with someone like Robertson or a FA 3rd pair guy WILL hurt the 3rd pair, but suddenly the Rangers would be three lines deep. Mittelstadt's defensive play would improve team D in a big way. If Chytil can come back, he could be pushed to the RW, solving that issue as well.

It just makes a lot of sense to me.

Your reasons for trading Schneider are:

1) He's blocked behind Fox and Trouba
2) He's going to get paid too much as a 3rd pair dman

Your solution is to trade him for Mittelstadt, who:

1) Will be blocked behind Zib and Trocheck
2) Will get paid too much as a 3rd line center

Which part of that makes sense to you? We have no defensive depth, no one to replace Schneider. Robertson is a LD. He was drafted a year before Schneider and has yet to play a game in the NHL. He's not an NHL dman. We'd have to sign a UFA or trade for a replacement. How much will that cost?

Schneider will get a 2-year bridge deal. Trouba has 2 years left on his contract. Even if we don't move him early, Schneider can continue to play 3rd pair, or move ahead of Trouba if his play warrants it. He can be given more PK time as well. He's 22 years old. There's no need to rush him into a top 4 spot.

You don't trade from a position of weakness. Even if Trouba plays out his contract, he's probably gone after that. Then what? Pay through the nose for a UFA or trade replacement? We need to be adding dmen, not trading them.

 

[Raspewtin]

Not even in a package for Chychrun?

I mean most of us probably would depending on the adds but we literally have no RHD depth past him and if Trouba plays more minutes to offset this, well we will just be in more pain than before.

 

[bernmeister]

What about a trade involving Justin Faulk?

it is starting to sink in that bern was right, nyr mgmt was wrong
rule
no more youth for vets

so no
want to do vets for vets? youth for youth? your youth for our vets? we can talk.
But exceptions notwithstanding, that is the rule

 

[bernmeister]

Your reasons for trading Schneider are:

1) He's blocked behind Fox and Trouba
2) He's going to get paid too much as a 3rd pair dman

Your solution is to trade him for Mittelstadt, who:

1) Will be blocked behind Zib and Trocheck
2) Will get paid too much as a 3rd line center

Which part of that makes sense to you? We have no defensive depth, no one to replace Schneider. Robertson is a LD. He was drafted a year before Schneider and has yet to play a game in the NHL. He's not an NHL dman. We'd have to sign a UFA or trade for a replacement. How much will that cost?

Schneider will get a 2-year bridge deal. Trouba has 2 years left on his contract. Even if we don't move him early, Schneider can continue to play 3rd pair, or move ahead of Trouba if his play warrants it. He can be given more PK time as well. He's 22 years old. There's no need to rush him into a top 4 spot.

You don't trade from a position of weakness. Even if Trouba plays out his contract, he's probably gone after that. Then what? Pay through the nose for a UFA or trade replacement? We need to be adding dmen, not trading them.

generally excellent post, mostly agree

I disagree on Robertson not an NHL D man
I acknowledge why you go there, and yr pt as to not getting into games is factually true, but that is b'c R mgmt is sometimes beyond stupid, often irrationally favors vets = youth not developed = probs
I choose to call out R mgmt there.

Other pt is, not dealing from weakness = accurate as to rule
Howev, an overriding factor = another rule,
if too much profit on the table, you don't say no

That said, Schneider is indispensable at present
he goes nowhere
give it up

 

[is the answer jesus]

Schneider would absolutely be a nice target for the Sabres. That said I think a trade around him and Mittelstadt seems to favor the Rangers considerably and thats even while factoring in age, years of team control, and the overall rarity of quality RHD. Buffalo needs a guy that they can plug into the #4 spot and count on to play some legitimately difficult competition along with significant minutes and I don't think Schneider is there yet. Rangers fans would certainly have a better feel for when/if he can get to that point. I will say Casey has been fantastic for Buffalo since the all-star break last season. He's legitimately been one of our best players. I'd probably trade Cozens before I'd move him if I had any say in the matter.

 

[bernmeister]

1. Schneid goes nowhere

2. Even if Rs had sufficient RD to entertain doing that, or didn't and said this is an exception to the rule where you deal from position of weakness, in such case Schneid would be part of a package for a huge return/premium piece not fair value.

 

[eco's bones]

Schneider will get a decent raise but the Rangers aren't going to break the bank on a bridge deal. I don't understand why some Rangers fans are worried about his next contract. He's a good young defenseman that can get up on the play but his offense is so far only okay. There's no reason yet to be giving him big $'s. He's a very positive and promising young RD controlled asset. There's no great reason for us moving him.

Whether a lot of Rangers fans like, don't like or want to move Trouba......he's also the captain and easily the Rangers most physical D (on a not very physical defense) and a key to the PK and closing a game out situations. Yeah....he's a bit overpaid. Every team has players that are a bit overpaid. As far as his blocking Schneider.....Braden needs to prove he's a better option than Jacob which he hasn't done yet. I'd rather he earn his way up than to make a hole for him.

Robertson hasn't made the Rangers yet because he hasn't earned a job. In the Ahl he's been a pretty inconsistent player. He's had issues figuring out what kind of player he is....a more offensive two way or a stay at home and he's caught out thinking about these things sometimes during games.

 

[bernmeister]

Schneider will get a decent raise but the Rangers aren't going to break the bank on a bridge deal. I don't understand why some Rangers fans are worried about his next contract. He's a good young defenseman that can get up on the play but his offense is so far only okay. There's no reason yet to be giving him big $'s. He's a very positive and promising young RD controlled asset. There's no great reason for us moving him.

Whether a lot of Rangers fans like, don't like or want to move Trouba......he's also the captain and easily the Rangers most physical D (on a not very physical defense) and a key to the PK and closing a game out situations. Yeah....he's a bit overpaid. Every team has players that are a bit overpaid. As far as his blocking Schneider.....Braden needs to prove he's a better option than Jacob which he hasn't done yet. I'd rather he earn his way up than to make a hole for him.

cap will force Troub to be moved before end of his deal
likely to DET
whether or not that happens this post season remains to be seen given a # of variables, but I give it 3:1 that it will happen if Rs retain 1.5 or more and are flexible about return being chiefly picks

 

[smoneil]

Your reasons for trading Schneider are:

1) He's blocked behind Fox and Trouba
2) He's going to get paid too much as a 3rd pair dman

Your solution is to trade him for Mittelstadt, who:

1) Will be blocked behind Zib and Trocheck
2) Will get paid too much as a 3rd line center

Which part of that makes sense to you? We have no defensive depth, no one to replace Schneider. Robertson is a LD. He was drafted a year before Schneider and has yet to play a game in the NHL. He's not an NHL dman. We'd have to sign a UFA or trade for a replacement. How much will that cost?

Schneider will get a 2-year bridge deal. Trouba has 2 years left on his contract. Even if we don't move him early, Schneider can continue to play 3rd pair, or move ahead of Trouba if his play warrants it. He can be given more PK time as well. He's 22 years old. There's no need to rush him into a top 4 spot.

You don't trade from a position of weakness. Even if Trouba plays out his contract, he's probably gone after that. Then what? Pay through the nose for a UFA or trade replacement? We need to be adding dmen, not trading them.

Let me explain. You are right. We would be going from having a young, soon-to-be-overpaid 3rd pair D blocked by two vets to having a young, soon-to-be-overpaid 3rd line C blocked by two vets. It isn't ideal, but to get a good, long-term player, you have to give quality as well. For me, the impact that Mittelstadt would have on our 3rd line would far exceed the impact that Schneider has on that 3rd pair. We've been plugging and playing cheap UFA guys on that 3rd pair for years anyway, so it's not like it's a huge change, and our top two pairs play the majority of the game anyway (Schneider's TOI/G is actually down a little bit this season).

Meanwhile, in Mittelstadt, you have a C who is actually known for his defensive play and his even strength scoring--desperate needs among our forward corps. It also gives the team three top-six level centers, which would be a good place to be as we start adding Othmann and Perrault to Bread, Kreider, Laf, Cuylle, and Kakko. The team right now runs into trouble when the PP isn't working or when the Bread line isn't scoring. You shut down one or two elements of the team, and they get shut down completely. Adding Mittelstadt solves so many of those problems.

To me, that's worth the hit of losing a good young stay at home D who isn't playing a ton of minutes anyway. If the team was looking to move Trouba and bump Schneider up, that'd be one thing, but I don't see that as the path Drury has in mind.

Ideally, you DON'T trade from a position of weakness. But you pay the currency needed to improve the team. And I am so DONE with seeing the team moving 1st and 2nd rounders to get vet rentals who are here and gone in the blink of an eye. No major trades unless they are for players who will be here long-term (I'm fine with moves like the initial Vatrano trade, ie: a middling draft pick for a role player).

And, as I said in my initial post, you clearly view Trouba as a player with a rapidly-ticking clock. I see more value in moving Trouba or letting his contract run out as well. My logic here is based on the likelihood that Drury sees Trouba far differently than the fans do. I think it's far more likely that Trouba gets extended before hitting UFA.

 

[eco's bones]

cap will force Troub to be moved before end of his deal
likely to DET
whether or not that happens this post season remains to be seen given a # of variables, but I give it 3:1 that it will happen if Rs retain 1.5 or more and are flexible about return being chiefly picks

Cap should go up several million between the next couple years. It might come to moving Jacob but I wouldn't use the word 'force' here. That's a bit premature.

I'd say that the Rangers have a number of forward prospects they might be able to work into their bottom 6 at ELC rates the next couple years which would move more cap $'s towards their more top end personnel. For instance there is no reason at all for the Rangers to be shopping with lots of $'s for bottom 6 or bottom pairing D (Goodrow would be case in point) for the next yada amount of years. Edstrom looks like a real keeper of a low cost bottom 6 player for one who might finish out the season with us. There's Othmann, Sykora, Berard, Rempe, Chmelar, BMB, Laba and maybe even a couple others who are all looking really good and all those guys will make for cheap contracts for quite a while.

 

[smoneil]

cap will force Troub to be moved before end of his deal
likely to DET
whether or not that happens this post season remains to be seen given a # of variables, but I give it 3:1 that it will happen if Rs retain 1.5 or more and are flexible about return being chiefly picks

That's what you (and I) want to happen, Bern. But as you are so fond of saying, how often does the team ever listen to Bern? I haven't seen anything at all from Drury or the Rangers brass that indicates that they are unhappy with Trouba in any way whatsoever. On the contrary, I think Drury sees Trouba as part of the long-term plan/solution.

 

[bernmeister]

Cap should go up several million between the next couple years. It might come to moving Jacob but I wouldn't use the word 'force' here. That's a bit premature.

I'd say that the Rangers have a number of forward prospects they might be able to work into their bottom 6 at ELC rates the next couple years which would move more cap $'s towards their more top end personnel. For instance there is no reason at all for the Rangers to be shopping with lots of $'s for bottom 6 or bottom pairing D (Goodrow would be case in point) for the next yada amount of years. Edstrom looks like a real keeper of a low cost bottom 6 player for one who might finish out the season with us. There's Othmann, Sykora, Berard, Rempe, Chmelar, BMB, Laba and maybe even a couple others who are all looking really good and all those guys will make for cheap contracts for quite a while.

A generally solid post, kudos, and perhaps "force" was not exact correct, but
unquestionably we need more $$$$ to upgrade this roster, not less to tweak it, and unless Zib/bread waive, Trouba is the only large chunk that even after you eat 1.5m-ish of it, you are still getting a big # to work with.

That's what you (and I) want to happen, Bern. But as you are so fond of saying, how often does the team ever listen to Bern? I haven't seen anything at all from Drury or the Rangers brass that indicates that they are unhappy with Trouba in any way whatsoever. On the contrary, I think Drury sees Trouba as part of the long-term plan/solution.

Fact that often bern is not listened to does not overcome right or obligation of bern to speak the truth and accept the results

As is often enough the case, I am right and Drury etc are wrong

 

[GAGLine]

Let me explain. You are right. We would be going from having a young, soon-to-be-overpaid 3rd pair D blocked by two vets to having a young, soon-to-be-overpaid 3rd line C blocked by two vets. It isn't ideal, but to get a good, long-term player, you have to give quality as well. For me, the impact that Mittelstadt would have on our 3rd line would far exceed the impact that Schneider has on that 3rd pair. We've been plugging and playing cheap UFA guys on that 3rd pair for years anyway, so it's not like it's a huge change, and our top two pairs play the majority of the game anyway (Schneider's TOI/G is actually down a little bit this season).

Meanwhile, in Mittelstadt, you have a C who is actually known for his defensive play and his even strength scoring--desperate needs among our forward corps. It also gives the team three top-six level centers, which would be a good place to be as we start adding Othmann and Perrault to Bread, Kreider, Laf, Cuylle, and Kakko. The team right now runs into trouble when the PP isn't working or when the Bread line isn't scoring. You shut down one or two elements of the team, and they get shut down completely. Adding Mittelstadt solves so many of those problems.

To me, that's worth the hit of losing a good young stay at home D who isn't playing a ton of minutes anyway. If the team was looking to move Trouba and bump Schneider up, that'd be one thing, but I don't see that as the path Drury has in mind.

Ideally, you DON'T trade from a position of weakness. But you pay the currency needed to improve the team. And I am so DONE with seeing the team moving 1st and 2nd rounders to get vet rentals who are here and gone in the blink of an eye. No major trades unless they are for players who will be here long-term (I'm fine with moves like the initial Vatrano trade, ie: a middling draft pick for a role player).

And, as I said in my initial post, you clearly view Trouba as a player with a rapidly-ticking clock. I see more value in moving Trouba or letting his contract run out as well. My logic here is based on the likelihood that Drury sees Trouba far differently than the fans do. I think it's far more likely that Trouba gets extended before hitting UFA.

I'm not sure what your definition of overpaid is, but Mittelstadt (arbitration eligible) will be getting significantly more on his next contract than Schneider (not arbitration eligible) will.

Also consider the possibility that Chytil comes back next season. He's got 7 1/2 months to get better. It may not happen, but we can't rule it out at this point. If we trade for Mittelstadt and re-sign him to a long-term deal, we'll have a problem if Chytil does make it back.

 

[Hobnobs]

cap will force Troub to be moved before end of his deal
likely to DET
whether or not that happens this post season remains to be seen given a # of variables, but I give it 3:1 that it will happen if Rs retain 1.5 or more and are flexible about return being chiefly picks

Why Detroit?

 

[smoneil]

I'm not sure what your definition of overpaid is, but Mittelstadt (arbitration eligible) will be getting significantly more on his next contract than Schneider (not arbitration eligible) will.

Also consider the possibility that Chytil comes back next season. He's got 7 1/2 months to get better. It may not happen, but we can't rule it out at this point. If we trade for Mittelstadt and re-sign him to a long-term deal, we'll have a problem if Chytil does make it back.

Overpaid relative to the role on the team. I agree that Mittelstadt will cost more than Schneider, though.

If Chytil doesn't come back next season, then his money (plus some of the cap bump) would basically cover Mittelstadt. If Chytil does come back, then we would likely need to buy out Goodrow and replace him with one of the Hartford kids. I could also see them moving Kakko (who I would prefer to keep, but the team seems to dislike) to create some of that cap space, pushing Chytil to the RW. Playing the wing could be a bit safer for his head, and his speed could be an asset opposite Kreider on the Zib line.

Again, nobody needs to agree with me, and I know it isn't a popular opinion among Ranger fans. To me, it's a gamble worth making and the down sides are all things that could be easy enough to manage.

 

[SML2]

cap will force Troub to be moved before end of his deal
likely to DET
whether or not that happens this post season remains to be seen given a # of variables, but I give it 3:1 that it will happen if Rs retain 1.5 or more and are flexible about return being chiefly picks

Im just curious Bern, have any of the things you predicted or proposed ever actually happened? And don't count that you didn't want them to trade somebody. That's not a prediction or a proposal. Detroit is an up and coming team. I don't see why they would be interested in an overpaid Dman on the wrong side of 30. I feel like Yzerman is far too shrewd to blow 10% of his cap on what would at that point soon be a bottom 4 dman.

 

[bernmeister]

Why Detroit?

believe he's on record as saying before he forced deal to nyr that DET, he grew up a Wings fan, was close #2.

If it is at all within the bounds of reasonable, happy to send him to his preference.
Granted, it is only out of division, not out of conference, but that will do

 

[bernmeister]

Im just curious Bern, have any of the things you predicted or proposed ever actually happened? And don't count that you didn't want them to trade somebody. That's not a prediction or a proposal. Detroit is an up and coming team. I don't see why they would be interested in an overpaid Dman on the wrong side of 30. I feel like Yzerman is far too shrewd to blow 10% of his cap on what would at that point soon be a bottom 4 dman.

will detail some instances of when I was correct when I have time and in proper thread so post is not hijacking

Super short comment is I called cost of Nils L to Dallas, but better illustration is saying do this, etc, was or was not a mistake. [e.g. wait til Buch has a fraction of rfa left totally diminishing his return value].
Also said all these rentals other than Vatrano was a huge mistake.

As to yr fair comment re: DET
the bottom line will be cost

Rs will accept decent futures and maybe retain up to 1.5

per cf he is ufa in 26-27. only 2 seasons after this and he is currently 29, so he ends in his early 30s

that is not onerous for a club to take on esp
DET needs/wants RD which are in short supply
it is not like taking on long term guy now in mid 30s