AtlantaWhaler
Thrash/Preds/Sabres
- Jul 3, 2009
- 19,800
- 3,022
Hey...same number of times as Quebec, which apparently, isn't so badAnd we watch them fail over and over again.
CXLVIII - Coyotes owner Alex Meruelo had 'productive' meeting with Phoenix mayor
- Thread starter Fenway
- Start date
Idk if you realize this but 100 years ago doesn't really count for anything.Hey...same number of times as Quebec, which apparently, isn't so bad
dj4aces
An Intricate Piece of Infinity
No amount of screaming in all caps, and being completely disrespectful of other markets and the issues from those markets you've made a conscious decision to remain willfully ignorant of, will change how the league and its board of governors view the markets.
Potential growth and potential future earnings is what the league is banking on. It's not necessarily about today. In Atlanta, you have some folks who were Flames and Thrashers fans... but you also have scores of folks who moved here from New York, Boston, Chicago, and Detroit. In a generation, when some of those young parents have kids of their own, do you know what team those kids will be watching? It won't be the Isles, Sabres, Bruins or Blackhawks... it'll be the new Atlanta franchise.
The same is true of Phoenix, and what's more is, you can look at the story of Matthews and see that. You can look at the Hughes brothers from Florida and see that. This is what the league believed in when they first came to these places.
This is what places like Phoenix, Atlanta, and Houston have to offer, and why the league is keen on coming to these places.
I don't really bring up the Flames but it's certainly more valid
Yukon Joe
Registered User
There are plenty of "failed" markets that have succeeded the second time around. Colorado, Minnesota, Winnipeg - going further back San Francisco/Bay Area. Hell if you want to go WAY back you could mention Ottawa. And I'm probably missing someone.
The fact a franchise relocated/failed in the past is not irrelevant, but it's not the end of an argument like some people tend to argue.
The fact a franchise relocated/failed in the past is not irrelevant, but it's not the end of an argument like some people tend to argue.
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
I will not stand for this erasure of the Saint Louis Eagles, Pittsburgh Pirates, and Philadelphia Quakers.
dj4aces
An Intricate Piece of Infinity
Were they not born in Orlando, Florida? I mean, I admit that I didn't follow their development path, but the fact that we have Floridians playing the sport means something. The fact that Matthews decided he wanted to play the sport after seeing the Coyotes means something.
The Thrashers drafted a kid from the area during their brief time here, and while he never made it past the NCAA, it was certainly a part of what the league desired when they came here in the first place: Kids seeing a pro NHL team in their town and deciding they wanted to play the sport.
The point is, the NHL coming to markets like this is all a part of the long game that far too many people don't seem to grasp.
Being born somewhere and being raised somewhere else are two different things.
Heck, the Jets 1.0 had a couple of players. One was from France and the other was from ElSalvador or Guatemala ( somewhere in Central America for sure).
Doesn’t mean that hockey is growing in those places at all.
Steve Smith was born in Glasgow Scotland. Only now is hockey showing any kind of signs of hockey and it’s waaaaayyyyy down their list.
The NHL having teams in FL had zero to do with any of the Hughes making it to the NHL.
It's a common mistake. When someone wants to make the argument you're making, they look at who was born in [insert southern state] and claim the NHL being there = why that/those player(s) are in NHL. Which is flawed to begin with but more often that not completely inaccurate as there is many cases of players -possibly a majority of when considering southern markets- being born there and it having nothing to do with them making it to the NHL. Let alone being their "home." Most making that argument fail to grasp this in their haste to defend southern markets.
That's why it's important to look at why they were born there in the first place -Hughes family isn't exactly from FL or a family of "Floridians"- and where they actually grew up. For you, short version. Their dad was an IHL asst. coach. They moved from Orlando before Quinn was 2 years old -and before he started playing hockey- and before Jack was even a year old. Obviously Luke wasn't born in FL.
TheGreenTBer
Angry HFBoards Drama Queen since 2005
- Apr 30, 2021
- 9,726
- 11,738
Indeed. Born in Brazil.
Paul MacLean was born in France (Winnipeg Jet)
Don Spring ( Winnipeg Jet ) was born in Venezuela ( not ElSavador or Guatemala like I said earlier lol)
LT
XXXX - XXXX - XX__ - ____
- Jul 23, 2010
- 42,046
- 13,808
Dallas is a legitimate success story when it comes to developing and growing hockey amongst the community at large. They've begun to produce legitimate NHL players who are born and raised in Dallas. And most importantly, they played their youth and junior hockey in Dallas as well.
I also use Blake Coleman (Stefan Noesen works, too) as an example for one side, while the players who were born in Texas (Houston) because their fathers played for the Aeros at the time are an example of no, the NHL being in Dallas is not why those kids grew up to become NHL players, or why they became fans of hockey, or played hockey, etc..
Yukon Joe
Registered User
I've sometimes wondered that if my son makes the NHL will he get listed as coming from Whitehorse, Yukon where he was born (I come by my username honestly!), or from Edmonton where he's lived since he was 10 months old.
(fun fact - my son is not making the NHL)
(fun fact - my son is not making the NHL)
That's also sort of the funny part of the Matthews example.
When it's tied in to the other, erroneous examples. While saying AM34 is from AZ, while ignoring the born in CA part. Then using players born in [southern state] even though they immediately moved after birth and grew up somewhere else.
I've said it other threads before but I don't subscribe to the idea that it should be the NHL's primary mission to do USA Development's lunch pail work on player development in "non traditional areas." It's a nice bonus but pro sports is a business and businesses should satisfy their customers.
And to be clear: I'm happy to use this argument both in favour and against "non traditional" markets. No, I don't think Auston Matthews and the potential of another Auston Matthews justifies the existence of the Arizona Coyotes if they are going to lose money into infinity & beyond. Conversely, if a franchise in Arizona comes along and makes money by growing a sizable/suitable rabid fanbase despite not creating one new player, I *still* do not care. It will have succeeded it doing what it was supposed to do to justify itself.
We have junior hockey, we have Hockey Canada & USA Developmental, we have NCAA hockey, we even have minor league hockey, there are 70 member nations in the IIHF.......let the NHL worry about being the major league of its sport that develops markets that treat it like a major league sport first and foremost. Anything else is a nice ancillary bonus.*****
***** The one exception I'll make? Cities like Atlanta and Phoenix have the potential to bring minority populations to the sport other markets just can't. I don't think the NHL needs to worry about how many players are coming from the south but they should worry about the impressions that "hockey is just for white people."
So this is a longwinded way of saying : "what players came from Dallas, Arizona, etc. neither impresses nor dissuades me from advocating for those markets." There are currently 26 players from Saskatchewan in the NHL right now........does anyone who argues Saskatoon would work (which is admittedly a small number of folks but not negligible) start with the premise "I bet we could double that!"
And to be clear: I'm happy to use this argument both in favour and against "non traditional" markets. No, I don't think Auston Matthews and the potential of another Auston Matthews justifies the existence of the Arizona Coyotes if they are going to lose money into infinity & beyond. Conversely, if a franchise in Arizona comes along and makes money by growing a sizable/suitable rabid fanbase despite not creating one new player, I *still* do not care. It will have succeeded it doing what it was supposed to do to justify itself.
We have junior hockey, we have Hockey Canada & USA Developmental, we have NCAA hockey, we even have minor league hockey, there are 70 member nations in the IIHF.......let the NHL worry about being the major league of its sport that develops markets that treat it like a major league sport first and foremost. Anything else is a nice ancillary bonus.*****
***** The one exception I'll make? Cities like Atlanta and Phoenix have the potential to bring minority populations to the sport other markets just can't. I don't think the NHL needs to worry about how many players are coming from the south but they should worry about the impressions that "hockey is just for white people."
So this is a longwinded way of saying : "what players came from Dallas, Arizona, etc. neither impresses nor dissuades me from advocating for those markets." There are currently 26 players from Saskatchewan in the NHL right now........does anyone who argues Saskatoon would work (which is admittedly a small number of folks but not negligible) start with the premise "I bet we could double that!"
dj4aces
An Intricate Piece of Infinity
At no point did I ever say Matthews was from Arizona. I merely said the Hughes brothers are from Florida. Nice try, though.
I didn't say you did. The "Matthews example" is common and an extremely common mistake people make.
I properly and directly responded to you when I was talking about what you said. Wanting to help you out on basic and common hockey knowledge.
You can note I was responding to someone else and merely saying it's funny, to me, "when" (note the when) it's tied to other, erroneous examples. I wasn't responding to you and at no point did I say you said Matthews was from Arizona nor did I mention you in the post you quoted.
I understand your upset, I was merely just trying to help you which is why I told you to look into it more. You evidently are taking that personal and are looking for a "gotcha" to get me back. Don't worry about it, bud. Wasn't personal. Just was information sharing. Nice try, though.
dj4aces
An Intricate Piece of Infinity
I'm not upset in the slightest. Sorry if I gave you that impression. But considering I did mention Matthews, it felt more directed toward me. Apologies for misunderstanding.
TheLegend
Hardly Deactivated
No worry.
Bottom line was Matthews was leaning towards playing basketball until his father took him to a Coyotes hockey game. So the Coyotes played a big part of it.
And now there’s Matthew Knies, Josh Doan, and a couple of others close to making the league.
A kid from Scottsdale and Jr. Coyotes 14U program was the 1OA pick in this years WHL draft.
AtlantaWhaler
Thrash/Preds/Sabres
- Jul 3, 2009
- 19,800
- 3,022
The Coyotes need to agree on some kind deal with the Suns to share a new arena because there is no way a new Coyotes team can survive without a co tenant to help pay the bills so if they can not reach a deal with the suns the arena won't get built & no 2nd chance for Arizona .
BKIslandersFan
F*** off
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