CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[BKIslandersFan]

Why do you care? Doesn't involve you, or your life, in any way. Why are you getting so upset over how other people feel on a topic that doesn't include you?

Why are you so mad that I am just pointing out the fact that an NHL team playing in Mullet Arena does not impact anyone's life?

 

[TheLegend]

Why do you care? Doesn't involve you, or your life, in any way. Why are you getting so upset over how other people feel on a topic that doesn't include you?

Why are you so mad that I am just pointing out the fact that an NHL team playing in Mullet Arena does not impact anyone's life?

Frankly it doesn’t affect anyone who’s posted in the previous two pages.

The whole read was a mostly like someone got themselves lost in the Wendy’s drive-thru.

 

[Legion34]

Frankly it doesn’t affect anyone who’s posted in the previous two pages.

The whole read was a mostly like someone got themselves lost in the Wendy’s drive-thru.

How do you know how things affect people?

In a revenue sharing league with team determined pricing the fans of big market teams probably have paid more actual dollars to the coyotes franchise than a whole lot of people in Arizona. Someone has to support the team and it’s not your state. Some people spend a weeks paycheque to bring a family of 4 to the game in hockey markets so their money can be given to a college rink with 4 fans.

There are people here who have lost teams or are hoping for new franchises or are looking forward to the next lockout and would rather there not be issues.

Would a hockey fan in salt lake or Houston not care? They may actually get a team and support it.

It is a revenue sharing cooperative league. All fans have interest in the financial health of all teams

 

[Legion34]

Why are you so mad that I am just pointing out the fact that an NHL team playing in Mullet Arena does not impact anyone's life?

Define impact?

In a revenue sharing league having teams like this means others have to support them. NHL packages, big market ticket prices etc all affect it.

Having a disaster team in a ridiculous arena is keeping other fanbases in other cities from actually having a team that deserve it.

Having the NHL players fighting for normal conditions in the next CBA in a year and a bit takes away leverage in other areas.

The impact on many people here is probably way more than people in Arizona in terms of money out of pocket. Someone has to support this disaster and it ain’t them

 

[Salsero1]

Define impact?

In a revenue sharing league having teams like this means others have to support them. NHL packages, big market ticket prices etc all affect it.

Having a disaster team in a ridiculous arena is keeping other fanbases in other cities from actually having a team that deserve it.

Having the NHL players fighting for normal conditions in the next CBA in a year and a bit takes away leverage in other areas.

The impact on many people here is probably way more than people in Arizona in terms of money out of pocket. Someone has to support this disaster and it ain’t them

Again, the owners are fine with revenue sharing, once anyone buys a ticket, is no longer their money and you have no claim to what that money is used for.

If you move the Yotes to a market that "deserves" them, then someone else is going to get that revenue sharing check. That's how the system works. Ticket prices in Toronto won't go down one cent if the Yotes moved to some cold hellhole.

And you're ignoring 25 years of context as to why the Yotes are playing where they are.

 

[Legion34]

Again, the owners are fine with revenue sharing, once anyone buys a ticket, is no longer their money and you have no claim to what that money is used for.

If you move the Yotes to a market that "deserves" them, then someone else is going to get that revenue sharing check. That's how the system works. Ticket prices in Toronto won't go down one cent if the Yotes moved to some cold hellhole.

And you're ignoring 25 years of context as to why the Yotes are playing where they are.

1.) ???? What are you talking about. Fans absolutely have the right to be mad/upset etc based on how people spend their money. If they didn’t Q/voynov/mitchell would be in the NHL. “He’s not playing for your team, why do you care?”

2.) The cap was frozen for years based on paying back the pandemic. This year they were like 50 million short. If there wasn’t a poverty franchise losing money we might not have had a frozen cap. Other teams have lost players because of this.

25 years of context has nothing to do with the owner getting kicked out of an arena.
They didn’t pay the bills. Didn’t community support and now we are doing this over and over.

I’m waiting for “if you don’t like it don’t spend money”. Wellll if we don’t who will? The legend person seems to be the only person in the whole state who actually cares.

 

[Salsero1]

Also to reiterate, fanbases don't get teams. Owners do. @Legion34 doesn't have a team, MSLE does. @TheLegend doesn't, AM does. I don't have one, Tom Dundon does. It's theirs to do what they see fit with as long as they aren't breaking any league rules which AM isn't.

Buying a ticket or merch doesn't make us minority owners. We are consumers.

 

[Legion34]

Also to reiterate, fanbases don't get teams. Owners do. @Legion34 doesn't have a team, MSLE does. @TheLegend doesn't, AM does. I don't have one, Tom Dundon does. It's theirs to do what they see fit with as long as they aren't breaking any league rules which AM isn't.

Buying a ticket or merch doesn't make us minority owners. We are consumers.

1.) First. That’s not really true. NBA owners have been forced to sell teams against their will. Teams are forced into revenue sharing and salary caps against their will

So it’s not exactly that they can do whatever they want.

2.) many people are actually minority owners of publically traded companies. My pension plan owned a substantial portion of the leafs for years.

The teachers pension plan (not mine) were majority owners of the leafs were they not?

3.) even if we minority owners. So what? That means that you can’t have an opinion on anything? Why are there fans then? Why buy a ticket or jerseys or invest in seasons tickets.

“It’s not my team, why do I care who wins?” This is really silly

 

[TheLegend]

How do you know how things affect people?

In a revenue sharing league with team determined pricing the fans of big market teams probably have paid more actual dollars to the coyotes franchise than a whole lot of people in Arizona. Someone has to support the team and it’s not your state. Some people spend a weeks paycheque to bring a family of 4 to the game in hockey markets so their money can be given to a college rink with 4 fans.

There are people here who have lost teams or are hoping for new franchises or are looking forward to the next lockout and would rather there not be issues.

Would a hockey fan in salt lake or Houston not care? They may actually get a team and support it.

It is a revenue sharing cooperative league. All fans have interest in the financial health of all teams

You're only interest is having a team to root for and a product to consume..... period.

1.) ???? What are you talking about. Fans absolutely have the right to be mad/upset etc based on how people spend their money. If they didn’t Q/voynov/mitchell would be in the NHL. “He’s not playing for your team, why do you care?”

2.) The cap was frozen for years based on paying back the pandemic. This year they were like 50 million short. If there wasn’t a poverty franchise losing money we might not have had a frozen cap. Other teams have lost players because of this.

25 years of context has nothing to do with the owner getting kicked out of an arena.
They didn’t pay the bills. Didn’t community support and now we are doing this over and over.

I’m waiting for “if you don’t like it don’t spend money”. Wellll if we don’t who will? The legend person seems to be the only person in the whole state who actually cares.

For the umpteenth time...... They weren't "kicked out" for not paying bills. There are receipts that exist to that yet you keep clinging to this incorrect generalization and continue to show just how little you actually know outside what the pundits tell you.

Glendale had wanted to lock them down to a long term lease ever since the city terminated the original 15-year lease back in 2015. The city gambled on the fact that the owners at that time weren't capable of getting another arena without extensive help and they were correct.

Once Alex Meruelo took over the franchise that changed. Meruelo looked to leave Glendale from day one, because he knew the business plan as it stood wasn't viable. There was not enough additional revenue streams available there to make it work there.

Neither side was going to budge. Glendale wasn't going to offer additional revenue assistance, and Meruelo wasn't going to stay there. Not even after Glendale offered to sell him the arena at steep discount. The historical majority of the Coyotes fanbase and wealthy corporate base were on the eastern side of the Phoenix Metro and they needed to be there, instead of where they were.

The entire situation just finally got to the point where the city had to cut it's ties with the Coyotes. The Coyotes did offer to stay there for three additional years with option for two more while they pursued the Tempe project. But then Glendale would eventually have to compete against two other arenas for events instead of just the one they currently compete with in downtown Phoenix (and that is hard enough as it is). So Glendale is taking the gamble again. That the Coyotes will have to leave the market.

 

[Tawnos]

The PA won’t be happy. There js a lockout coming. It will be interesting

It makes the league look like a joke

The PA might not be happy about it, but there's not going to be a lockout over the situation in Arizona. For one thing, by that point there'd only be a year left in Mullett anyway.

For another, lockouts are really caused by disputes over the structure of how players get paid across the whole league. Where the Coyotes are playing is not that kind of issue. In fact, I'm struggling to see where such an issue exists, unless the league decides to try to reduce the player's share like they did in 2012. There are tweaks that I'm sure each side wants, but the overall structure of the CBA isn't going to change. Escrow is capped and at a level that there shouldn't be too many issues when combined with the restrictions on cap increases we have now.

I already felt like a lockout was unlikely last time around, even before Covid was a thing. This time, I think it's even less likely than I did then.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

The coyotes are done in Arizona & have been done for a long time now & nobody in Arizona wants them to build an arena in there town because they cannot pay there bills & there is no way they will get any public funding because there bad credit so in my opinion they should start hearing offers from Houston & Salt Lake City on relocating there next season .

....so their! Er, there!

 

[tucker3434]

1.) First. That’s not really true. NBA owners have been forced to sell teams against their will. Teams are forced into revenue sharing and salary caps against their will

So it’s not exactly that they can do whatever they want.

2.) many people are actually minority owners of publically traded companies. My pension plan owned a substantial portion of the leafs for years.

The teachers pension plan (not mine) were majority owners of the leafs were they not?

3.) even if we minority owners. So what? That means that you can’t have an opinion on anything? Why are there fans then? Why buy a ticket or jerseys or invest in seasons tickets.

“It’s not my team, why do I care who wins?” This is really silly

Not against their will. Even the big boys see the value in helping the bottom out in order to create a healthier league, which ultimately inflates the value of the top teams.

If the high dollar teams wanted Arizona gone, it would happen. The situation there isn’t ideal, but the alternatives are generally worse.

 

[Voight]

If the Coyotes win the land auction the club stays, but if they lose the land auction they go?
If that’s the case, then shouldn’t the owner bid extra high to ensure he gets that land?

I mean, this same owner was outspent by local citizens in Tempe when it came to lobbying for support.

 

[Voight]

Also to reiterate, fanbases don't get teams. Owners do. @Legion34 doesn't have a team, MSLE does. @TheLegend doesn't, AM does. I don't have one, Tom Dundon does. It's theirs to do what they see fit with as long as they aren't breaking any league rules which AM isn't.

Buying a ticket or merch doesn't make us minority owners. We are consumers.

Packers fans would disagree

 

[Salsero1]

Packers fans would disagree

Cute. Anything of substance to offer?

 

[LPHabsFan]

Why are you so mad that I am just pointing out the fact that an NHL team playing in Mullet Arena does not impact anyone's life?

Again, I have to ask, why are you involving yourself in a conversation that has nothing to do with you? You clearly have the mindset whereby nobody should be involved in a conversation or situation unless they are impacted by it. So, be gone.

The PA might not be happy about it, but there's not going to be a lockout over the situation in Arizona. For one thing, by that point there'd only be a year left in Mullett anyway.

For another, lockouts are really caused by disputes over the structure of how players get paid across the whole league. Where the Coyotes are playing is not that kind of issue. In fact, I'm struggling to see where such an issue exists, unless the league decides to try to reduce the player's share like they did in 2012. There are tweaks that I'm sure each side wants, but the overall structure of the CBA isn't going to change. Escrow is capped and at a level that there shouldn't be too many issues when combined with the restrictions on cap increases we have now.

I already felt like a lockout was unlikely last time around, even before Covid was a thing. This time, I think it's even less likely than I did then.

It's impossible to know whether or not there's going to be a lockout and certainly there won't be one over this. Having said that, this is certainly going to be a topic that will be brought up because it does have an impact on the players on all three levels (mentally, physically, and financially). How it will be worded is unclear but there are already standards that must be met in terms of arena's locker room and all that, it's very likely to see there being more criteria added with maybe certain penalties attached.

 

[Legion34]

Not against their will. Even the big boys see the value in helping the bottom out in order to create a healthier league, which ultimately inflates the value of the top teams.

If the high dollar teams wanted Arizona gone, it would happen. The situation there isn’t ideal, but the alternatives are generally worse.

Lots of owners have. The clippers owner. I’m pretty sure the commanders owner. Forced to sell because the league didn’t want them.

 

[Legion34]

You're only interest is having a team to root for and a product to consume..... period.



For the umpteenth time...... They weren't "kicked out" for not paying bills. There are receipts that exist to that yet you keep clinging to this incorrect generalization and continue to show just how little you actually know outside what the pundits tell you.

Glendale had wanted to lock them down to a long term lease ever since the city terminated the original 15-year lease back in 2015. The city gambled on the fact that the owners at that time weren't capable of getting another arena without extensive help and they were correct.

Once Alex Meruelo took over the franchise that changed. Meruelo looked to leave Glendale from day one, because he knew the business plan as it stood wasn't viable. There was not enough additional revenue streams available there to make it work there.

Neither side was going to budge. Glendale wasn't going to offer additional revenue assistance, and Meruelo wasn't going to stay there. Not even after Glendale offered to sell him the arena at steep discount. The historical majority of the Coyotes fanbase and wealthy corporate base were on the eastern side of the Phoenix Metro and they needed to be there, instead of where they were.

The entire situation just finally got to the point where the city had to cut it's ties with the Coyotes. The Coyotes did offer to stay there for three additional years with option for two more while they pursued the Tempe project. But then Glendale would eventually have to compete against two other arenas for events instead of just the one they currently compete with in downtown Phoenix (and that is hard enough as it is). So Glendale is taking the gamble again. That the Coyotes will have to leave the market.

You don’t determine any individual persons interest. And actually my pension plan is directly invested and owns a 5% stake in MLSE.

I have a direct financial interest in the league. You may not. But the world doesn’t revolve around you.

You are in this thread non stop gate keeping what people are and aren’t allowed to talk about. Which insider is credible (based on your desired outcome rather than the ONE who actually said they would lose the vote).

And who should and shouldn’t care. Maybe spend more time trying to convince people in the state to care, instead of telling people that they don’t have a right to care

 

[Voight]

Lots of owners have. The clippers owner. I’m pretty sure the commanders owner. Forced to sell because the league didn’t want them.

Snyder wasn't forced to sell. His fellow owners hated him, but they never forced him.

He sold because of multiple PR disasters that killed any chance of him getting public $$ for a new stadium. Not to mention when pretty much every one of your colleagues hates you, its best to quit.

 

[Tawnos]

It's impossible to know whether or not there's going to be a lockout and certainly there won't be one over this. Having said that, this is certainly going to be a topic that will be brought up because it does have an impact on the players on all three levels (mentally, physically, and financially). How it will be worded is unclear but there are already standards that must be met in terms of arena's locker room and all that, it's very likely to see there being more criteria added with maybe certain penalties attached.

I would never say 100% that it's not going to happen. I'm just saying that I'm not seeing a point of contention that would cause one at this point. We'll see what the rhetoric starts to look like in summer '25 and into '26, but at the moment it's hard to envision a lockout happening. The issues that caused previous lockouts weren't tweaks and that's mostly what we're looking at for the next negotiation.

I agree that the NHLPA will try to get some more criteria in place, but it's just not an unsolvable issue (and it sounds like you agree with that). The NHLPA isn't going to pressure the NHL to resolve an issue that's already been resolved and just pending completion of an arena already under construction.

 

[awfulwaffle]

You don’t determine any individual persons interest. And actually my pension plan is directly invested and owns a 5% stake in MLSE.

I have a direct financial interest in the league. You may not. But the world doesn’t revolve around you.

You are in this thread non stop gate keeping what people are and aren’t allowed to talk about. Which insider is credible (based on your desired outcome rather than the ONE who actually said they would lose the vote).

And who should and shouldn’t care. Maybe spend more time trying to convince people in the state to care, instead of telling people that they don’t have a right to care

You're going to have to help explain something to me. Is your pension not a monthly amount set by your employer? I'm not sure what you are implying with the 5% of your pension is tied to MLSE. The Maple Leafs and the NHL aren't going anywhere, so why the big concern about your pension(especially considering it's only 5% of your pension portfolio)?

 

[Legion34]

You're going to have to help explain something to me. Is your pension not a monthly amount set by your employer? I'm not sure what you are implying with the 5% of your pension is tied to MLSE. The Maple Leafs and the NHL aren't going anywhere, so why the big concern about your pension?

No. Your pension is invested stock. If a bunch of people retire this year and the stock takes a tumble. It affects the person and the rates for next year.

I transferred jobs and they valued my pension and I had to buy back years of service at their rate. Because my last pension out performed my current pension at the time I got a surplus. It can go the other way.

If my pension buys stock and goes bankrupt, you think they just pay me? With what?

Even taking that out if I have indpendent stocks in MLSE (I don’t know that I do…. There is an advisor who chooses for me) then do I get to be interested?

Edit. That’s not what I said. I said OMERS owns 5% of MLSE. Not that it is only 5% of the stock portfolio. What if it’s 100% (unlikely but still possible)

This is all beyond the silly point that the legend gets to determine who is interested and what are valid reasons.

 

[DustyDangler]

Lots of owners have. The clippers owner. I’m pretty sure the commanders owner. Forced to sell because the league didn’t want them.

Might not be able to call it "forced" but Sarver of the Suns was given a strong nudge, at the least, to sell his team. The Coyotes fate might have been different if someone other than him had owned the Suns.

 

[Major4Boarding]

So... about this auction timeline and the "too late to pivot" thing.

One thing that has struck me, and it's not going to be well-received by the Yotes' faithful. This is not an intentional dunk, or a drive-by.

If the concern out there is a Lame Duck season, is it really though? In its normal context, a Lame Duck season would mean drastic, or even perhaps catastrophic, drops in attendance. To a market that averaged, say 12K-14K before the announcement, and attendance dropped 40% (as an example), people everywhere would be losing their minds.

For this situation though, we're already in an attendance bubble of 4,100 - 5,000 fans at The Mullet. Even if that 40% percentile happens, we're talking roughly half of the already-average attendance there? So roughly 2K people say "Screw this, I ain't going!" Compared to a larger venue's drop off's?

I'd be hard pressed to believe attendance would drop, to be honest. If it's truly the end, the Swan Song, they're leaving after 2024-2025 season concludes, I can actually see it being Standing Room Only.

 

[tucker3434]

Lots of owners have. The clippers owner. I’m pretty sure the commanders owner. Forced to sell because the league didn’t want them.

The owners don’t want the Yotes sold, not now at least. Franchise sales have been great recently with both the Preds and Sens selling for nearly a billion. The owners don’t want to water that down by including the Yotes bargain bin sales price as a comparable. Nor do they want to try to ask for billion dollar expansion fees after it either. They view their revenue sharing as an investment. If the Yotes can weather this storm, their current, rock-bottom valuation never becomes part of the record.

If AM ever gets sick of all of this and bails, then they’ll have to deal with it. But I don’t see any reason to force him out.