Crosby vs Ovechkin - Pick a player moving forward after 2009-2010 - no hindsight available

[Fatass]

Kind of depends what the choosing team needs. If they need a number one centre than Crosby. But if they already have a number one centre than it’s OV.
Crosby is a great player, and one of the best ever at centre.
OV is the greAtest goal scoring winger ever, and he plays like a PWF.

 

[Romang67]

Crosby was coming off back to back SCF where he scored at a rate not seen since Sakic, Jags, Forsberg, etc through 3 playoffs.

He won a Rocket Richard in 09-10.

This is Crosby all day. Ovechkin's team had just been the best in the league and an absolute force and got eliminated by a lowly Montreal squad where as Crosby's team looked to be on its way to a dynasty largely on his back.

This is without even getting into the fact Crosby is a center.

Uhm...

You do remember what happened after the lowly Montreal squad eliminated the Caps, right?

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Crosby was coming off back to back SCF where he scored at a rate not seen since Sakic, Jags, Forsberg, etc through 3 playoffs.

He won a Rocket Richard in 09-10.

This is Crosby all day. Ovechkin's team had just been the best in the league and an absolute force and got eliminated by a lowly Montreal squad where as Crosby's team looked to be on its way to a dynasty largely on his back.

This is without even getting into the fact Crosby is a center.

Yes let's ignore that OV was the better player in 4/5 seasons. It's Crosby all day because OV's TEAM got eliminated lol. Didn't Montreal also eliminate the pens that year? Largely on Crosby's back? Guess we're pretending again that Malkin didn't have that 36pt playoff (then in Malkin threads you pens fans complain how he's under appreciated).

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Crosby and no discussion needed. Let’s not forget in this time span Crosby was 20/22 and ovechkin was 22-24. Crosby at 22/24 would have done the same.

Yea at the end of the 2009-10 season Crosby was still just 22. He was still improving. Still had more room for upside than Ov at that point which is why I'd take Crosby even if Ovechkin outperformed him in the regular season.

 

[bobholly39]

OV vs Crosby 05/06-09/10

Hart: 2--1
Finalist: 3--2
Top 10: 4--3
Lindsay: 3--1
Finalist: 4--2
Smythe: 0--0
Calder: 1--0

Ross: 1--1
Top 10 pts: 4--4
PPG leader: 3--1
Top 10 PPG: 4--5

Rocket: 2--1
Top 10 goals: 5--1
GPG leader: 3--0
Top 10 GPG: 5--1

AST (1st+2nd): 5--2
Awards: 9--4

Hart finishes:
1,1,2,6,22 vs 1,3,6,17,24

Goal finishes:
1,1,2,3,4 vs 1

GPG finishes:
1,1,1,5,5 vs 2

Pt finishes:
1,2,2,3 vs 1,2,3,6

PPG finishes:
1,1,1,5 vs 1,2,3,4,6

This is easily OV. Way better hart record, way better lindsay record, way better goal and GPG finishes, better pt and PPG finishes. OV was also the better play driver. There is no argument for Crosby, absolutely none except using hindsight.

Expectations?

You don't have to believe Crosby was ahead of Ovi through 5 years to believe he'd end up better overall. At least that's largely where my vote is coming from.

It'd be as if Kucherov or Drai won 2-3 straight Art Rosses instead of 1 each - not sure i'd pick them over McDavid still.

 

[filinski77]

Expectations?

You don't have to believe Crosby was ahead of Ovi through 5 years to believe he'd end up better overall. At least that's largely where my vote is coming from.

It'd be as if Kucherov or Drai won 2-3 straight Art Rosses instead of 1 each - not sure i'd pick them over McDavid still.

The only expectations were because Crosby was hockey media's golden-child.

The whole 2 year age gap thing is silly, they were 1 year drafted apart, if Crosby were 6 months older, or Ovechkin 6 months younger, it would have made absolutely no difference on either of their developments, they would have both had just as much hockey development time as they would have otherwise.

The Draisaitl comparison is interesting. Imagine this scenario:
-McDavid being hyped up since 14 years old (ala Crosby in this comparison)
-Draisaitl who is 1 draft year older (just like Ovi is to Crosby)
-Draisaitl has a better Rookie year, but then McDavid has a better sophomore year
-Draisaitl then wins 3 straight Pearsons, leads the league in goals & points/gp in those 3 straight years

The reasonable expectation without hindsight to the actual outcome, would be that Draisaitl would be the better player going forward.

The media, and other North American fans would of course try and spin it that McDavid was the better player, and would be going forward. No one wants to root for the German kid who was better head to head in 4/5 of the seasons used to compare the 2 going forward.

 

[Gurglesons]

Uhm...

You do remember what happened after the lowly Montreal squad eliminated the Caps, right?

Yeah. Crosby got eliminated for the second time in 10 playoff series in three years.

 

[bobholly39]

The only expectations were because Crosby was hockey media's golden-child.

The whole 2 year age gap thing is silly, they were 1 year drafted apart, if Crosby were 6 months older, or Ovechkin 6 months younger, it would have made absolutely no difference on either of their developments, they would have both had just as much hockey development time as they would have otherwise.

The Draisaitl comparison is interesting. Imagine this scenario:
-McDavid being hyped up since 14 years old (ala Crosby in this comparison)
-Draisaitl who is 1 draft year older (just like Ovi is to Crosby)
-Draisaitl has a better Rookie year, but then McDavid has a better sophomore year
-Draisaitl then wins 3 straight Pearsons, leads the league in goals & points/gp in those 3 straight years

The reasonable expectation without hindsight to the actual outcome, would be that Draisaitl would be the better player going forward.

The media, and other North American fans would of course try and spin it that McDavid was the better player, and would be going forward. No one wants to root for the German kid who was better head to head in 4/5 of the seasons used to compare the 2 going forward.

Well - I think being "hockey media's golden-child" counts in my choosing of who I pick. I'll certainly admit I get influenced by the media somewhat.

The 2 years younger is extremely relevant too. Players are usually only good until a certain age. The one whose 2 years younger usually has 2 more seasons/elite seasons left than the older one.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yes let's ignore that OV was the better player in 4/5 seasons. It's Crosby all day because OV's TEAM got eliminated lol. Didn't Montreal also eliminate the pens that year? Largely on Crosby's back? Guess we're pretending again that Malkin didn't have that 36pt playoff (then in Malkin threads you pens fans complain how he's under appreciated).

Crosby had shown up and won everywhere he had gone and at everything he dedicated himself to in 2010. He was on a different plateau then any player in the NHL at that point in terms of "winning" and being the clutch player in those situations.

 

[Romang67]

Yeah. Crosby got eliminated for the second time in 10 playoff series in three years.

More specifically, who ended up eliminating the Penguins?

Eh, let's not play games. The argument you made was shit.

 

[Gurglesons]

The only expectations were because Crosby was hockey media's golden-child.

The whole 2 year age gap thing is silly, they were 1 year drafted apart, if Crosby were 6 months older, or Ovechkin 6 months younger, it would have made absolutely no difference on either of their developments, they would have both had just as much hockey development time as they would have otherwise.

The Draisaitl comparison is interesting. Imagine this scenario:
-McDavid being hyped up since 14 years old (ala Crosby in this comparison)
-Draisaitl who is 1 draft year older (just like Ovi is to Crosby)
-Draisaitl has a better Rookie year, but then McDavid has a better sophomore year
-Draisaitl then wins 3 straight Pearsons, leads the league in goals & points/gp in those 3 straight years

The reasonable expectation without hindsight to the actual outcome, would be that Draisaitl would be the better player going forward.

The media, and other North American fans would of course try and spin it that McDavid was the better player, and would be going forward. No one wants to root for the German kid who was better head to head in 4/5 of the seasons used to compare the 2 going forward.

If Draisaitl was on a different team and had been involved in the disappointment that had occurred in 2009, and 2010 in the Olympics and playoffs the narrative would be McDavid if he had been to two cup finals in two incredible runs and won the Olympics in OT.

 

[Gurglesons]

More specifically, who ended up eliminating the Penguins?

Eh, let's not play games. The argument you made was shit.

Not sure why the Penguins coming off back to back Finals and a Caps team that had just been one of the best in history are the same. Especially with how the Caps flamed out in that series. Totally different situations.

Crosby had just won a Cup and a Olympic gold. in a calendar year. Nobody really cared that the Penguins went out to Montreal like the Caps did.

 

[Trap Jesus]

From 05/06-09/10 Crosby finished top 10 in goals and assists in the same season 1x. OV did it 2x. Not sure how Crosby is more versatile there. If you are going to say Crosby can play with scrubs and still put up pts, again in this time period OV played with garbage players some years but still put up better #s than Crosby 4/5 seasons.

If you look at per game averages with a minimum of 100 games Crosby was 7th in goals per game and 3rd in assists per game compared to Ovechkin's 1st and 16th in that stretch. It's not as simple as just points though, it's how they carried the puck, what they were doing on the ice, how they scored or generated plays. Ovechkin did a ton off the rush in addition to his shot, but Crosby has always been versatile in terms of creating offense. I don't think that's a controversial take at all.

 

[Incognito]

I apologize, probably a mixup in my wording. I meant after the end of the 2009/2010 season, Ovechkin had gone 4/5 on head to head seasons vs. Crosby thus far in their careers.

Oh, sorry, my mistake! That makes sense. I think I just misinterpreted your original post.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

As it always is with Crosby and ovechkin. If it’s not goal scoring the answer is Crosby

 

[Voight]

Crosby. Still just 23 yo and just had stellar performances in high stakes games three years in a row. '08 playoffs, '09 playoffs, and '10 Olympics. Yes Ovechkin had better regular season numbers those years, but I still preferred Crosby's cerebral playmaking game. And at that time it still felt like he had untapped potential, and I felt his game would age better. I will give Ovy a lot of credit in that I never expected he'd still be winning rockets at age 34.

You mean the 2009 finals where he had 3 points in 7 games? Yup, stellar!

Or the 2010 Olympics where he scored more than 50% of his points against those stacked Norway/Germany squads. 0 in the semis vs Slovakia. 0 against Russia the game before that as well. Sure he had the golden goal but that doesn't happen without Iginla.

A huge factor is that Crosby is 2 years younger and I think unquestionably has more desire to play longer.

I can see ovi hanging them up in the NHL and going back to Russia in 3-4 years.

I doubt Ovy hangs them up while he still has somewhat of a shot at Gretzky's record.

Crosby was coming off back to back SCF where he scored at a rate not seen since Sakic, Jags, Forsberg, etc through 3 playoffs.

He won a Rocket Richard in 09-10.

This is Crosby all day. Ovechkin's team had just been the best in the league and an absolute force and got eliminated by a lowly Montreal squad where as Crosby's team looked to be on its way to a dynasty largely on his back.

This is without even getting into the fact Crosby is a center.

How does that have anything to do with him? Caps won the Presidents Trophy by virtue of playing in an awful division. Their defence group was average as hell. Ovechkin himself had 10 points against the Habs, not his fault the rest of his team neglected to show up (other than Knuble & Backstrom). 84 point Semin for example scored all of what, 2 points?

FWIW Crosby had 5 points against that same team (including 0 in game 7).

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Expectations?

You don't have to believe Crosby was ahead of Ovi through 5 years to believe he'd end up better overall. At least that's largely where my vote is coming from.

It'd be as if Kucherov or Drai won 2-3 straight Art Rosses instead of 1 each - not sure i'd pick them over McDavid still.

5 seasons is 400+ games. Who cares about expectations at that point.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

As it always is with Crosby and ovechkin. If it’s not goal scoring the answer is Crosby

Are better hart finishes, better lindsay finishes, better pt finishes and better PPG finishes "goal scoring"?

 

[Gurglesons]

You mean the 2009 finals where he had 3 points in 7 games? Yup, stellar!

Or the 2010 Olympics where he scored more than 50% of his points against those stacked Norway/Germany squads. 0 in the semis vs Slovakia. 0 against Russia the game before that as well. Sure he had the golden goal but that doesn't happen without Iginla.



I doubt Ovy hangs them up while he still has somewhat of a shot at Gretzky's record.



How does that have anything to do with him? Caps won the Presidents Trophy by virtue of playing in an awful division. Their defence group was average as hell. Ovechkin himself had 10 points against the Habs, not his fault the rest of his team neglected to show up (other than Knuble & Backstrom). 84 point Semin for example scored all of what, 2 points?

FWIW Crosby had 5 points against that same team (including 0 in game 7).

Nobody thought this way in 2010 and a lot of it is used in hindsight to discredit Crosby for some odd reason.

 

[Romang67]

Not sure why the Penguins coming off back to back Finals and a Caps team that had just been one of the best in history are the same. Especially with how the Caps flamed out in that series. Totally different situations.

Crosby had just won a Cup and a Olympic gold. in a calendar year. Nobody really cared that the Penguins went out to Montreal like the Caps did.

You mean by Halak saving 131 out of 134 shots in the last three games?

You could have made so many arguments that weren't just pretending that the Caps getting ousted by the Canadiens was an embarrassment and not largely running into a brick wall in Halak. The fact that you had to carefully word it so that it didn't show that the Canadiens ousted the Penguins right after the Capitals speaks volumes.

Again, I'm not gonna sit here and play games. Your argument was shit. I just wanted to point that out.

 

[Gurglesons]

You mean by Halak saving 131 out of 134 shots in the last three games?

You could have made so many arguments that weren't just pretending that the Caps getting ousted by the Canadiens was an embarrassment and not largely running into a brick wall in Halak. The fact that you had to carefully word it so that it didn't show that the Canadiens ousted the Penguins right after the Capitals speaks volumes.

Again, I'm not gonna sit here and play games. Your argument was shit. I just wanted to point that out.

It was not just Halak. The Canadiens completely decimated the Capitals power play which was their bread and butter.

We are looking at things from the view point of 2010. After the Caps performance and rightfully or wrongfully Ovechkin's in the two Game 7s. Crosby was viewed as the player you "win with" and Ovie was viewed as a lone wolf who "didn't play the right way". Hence the changes that occurred in the next two years.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Crosby had shown up and won everywhere he had gone and at everything he dedicated himself to in 2010. He was on a different plateau then any player in the NHL at that point in terms of "winning" and being the clutch player in those situations.

Why do you keep saying "Crosby won"? Teams win, not an individual. Malkin was the best player in the 09 playoffs. Crosby was the opposite of clutch in the 09 SCF. Crosby got carried in the 2010 Olympics, he wasn't "clutch" for shit. Yeah he scored a fluke goal in the final congratulations, but it doesn't happen if the team didn't do the heavy lifting to get to the final (in which he was a complete non factor in the big games QF & SF). OV was clearly the better player, that's why you keep using these lame ass "clutch" and "winning" arguments. You must have been the head of the "Toews > Crosby" fan club in 2015 because he was such a big winner compared to Crosby right? Stop being so biased.

 

[bobbyking]

2007 to 2010 ovi was 1a and sid 1b. no matter what these moose licking maple addicts tell you. 2 hart's 3 rockets as well
as a 65 goal record setting season. 1 season he swept all major awards and won the lindsay twice and was a allstar at different positions in one season. better career sid.

 

[Gurglesons]

Why do you keep saying "Crosby won"? Teams win, not an individual. Malkin was the best player in the 09 playoffs. Crosby was the opposite of clutch in the 09 SCF. Crosby got carried in the 2010 Olympics, he wasn't "clutch" for shit. Yeah he scored a fluke goal in the final congratulations, but it doesn't happen if the team didn't do the heavy lifting to get to the final (in which he was a complete non factor in the big games QF & SF). OV was clearly the better player, that's why you keep using these lame ass "clutch" and "winning" arguments. You must have been the head of the "Toews > Crosby" fan club in 2015 because he was such a big winner compared to Crosby right? Stop being so biased.

Nah.

Also the "Crosby wasn't around in the ECF and SCF" is wrong.

 

[filinski77]

If Draisaitl was on a different team and had been involved in the disappointment that had occurred in 2009, and 2010 in the Olympics and playoffs the narrative would be McDavid if he had been to two cup finals in two incredible runs and won the Olympics in OT.

Draisaitl being on the same team is extremely trivial and irrelevant to the point I was conveying. The same thing could be used if Kucherov was only 1 draft year older, and had won 3 straight Pearsons.

What in the 2009 playoffs were Ovechkin's fault? Ovechkin lead that Pens/Caps series in points and goals, no way it was his fault. As mentioned above, the only disappointment in those playoffs were the Caps team not playing well (not Ovechkin), and Malkin having almost 3x as many points as Crosby in the Cup final series.

What disappointment in the 2010 playoffs? Ovechkin had 5g 10p in 7 games against Montreal, who then went on to beat Pittsburgh in 7 games as well, only difference is Crosby had half the points against the Habs that Ovi did against them. Caps lost because Halak had a .939 Sv% and carried that team. If anything Crosby had inflated stats in the 2010 playoffs due to stomping on Ottawa's trash goaltending.

The Olympic thing is a terrible argument too, Crosby was not one of the best players on that team at all, and as mentioned earlier, only had 1 point in the 3 elimination games for Canada that year, and it was an extremely lucky (but memorable and important) goal. Canada was an absolute powerhouse of a team compared to the other teams in the olympics.

The Penguins and Team Canada being better teams does not make up for the fact that Ovechkin had 4/5 better head to head seasons, as well as 3 straight Pearsons. Not even close.