Crosby vs Mcdavid at the draft….

[Mrb1p]

I mean in terms of point totals and trophy count you could easily argue that McDavid was extremely lucky that when he had a significant knee injury it was the last game of the season. That's why it's important to actually judge a player's ability and impact vs. arbitrary milestones


@sparr0w doesn't think Crosby's hockey IQ is anything noteworthy, just to put into context what you're arguing against.

Oh lol, thats like saying Mcdavids speed isnt anything noteworthy.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Flip a coin, hoping for Crosby.

 

[Canovin]

Wait McDavid has a elite 2way game?

Crosby an elite 2 way player? lol

 

[Video Nasty]

Wait McDavid has a elite 2way game?

Crosby being an “elite” two way player is a myth told to children and believed by Peter Pan syndrome afflicted adult hockey fans.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Oh lol, thats like saying Mcdavids speed isnt anything noteworthy.

Yeah exactly

 

[GermanSpitfire]

It‘a Crosby by a landslide.
His draft year coincided with the lockout. If you wanted to watch hockey that season you were watching the CHL - and the hottest game on any given night was Rimouski.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Looking for clarification here. Are you suggesting that Crosby should have won an additional 4-5 Art Rosses on top of his current 2 or he would have 4-5 total as of now?

Without injuries 4-5 additional.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

No one cares about 2nd place votes. Why even bring that up? lol

These are finishes not votes and actually people who have an understanding of sports do care

 

[Beau Knows]

At this point I'd take the sure thing in Crosby, by the end of their careers it very well might change.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Looking for clarification here. Are you suggesting that Crosby should have won an additional 4-5 Art Rosses on top of his current 2 or he would have 4-5 total as of now?

I'd put him at pretty much a lock for 2 more definitely, with an outside shot at a couple more.

Almost locks:
2011 concussion and 2013 lockout year he was leading by a pretty decent gap at the time of both injuries.

Maybes:
2008 - high ankle sprain slowed him down on his return otherwise his pace had him neck and neck with what Ovechkin finished with. But because he wasn't running away with anything, that's a maybe.

2015 - Benn won with 87 points in 82 games, Crosby missed 5 games and lost the Art Ross by 4 points (he actually lost by 3 points but Benn had the tiebreaker in goals, so essentially 4).

Longshot:
2017 - He finished 11 behind McDavid, but he also missed 7 games. Ironically enough, he scored 11 points in his first 7 playoff games that playoffs. But it's a longshot because 11 points in 7 games is still a tough act.

 

[norrisnick]

Wait McDavid has a elite 2way game?

As much as Sid does, ya.

 

[Video Nasty]

I'd put him at pretty much a lock for 2 more definitely, with an outside shot at a couple more.

Almost locks:
2011 concussion and 2013 lockout year he was leading by a pretty decent gap at the time of both injuries.

Maybes:
2008 - high ankle sprain slowed him down on his return otherwise his pace had him neck and neck with what Ovechkin finished with. But because he wasn't running away with anything, that's a maybe.

2015 - Benn won with 87 points in 82 games, Crosby missed 5 games and lost the Art Ross by 4 points (he actually lost by 3 points but Benn had the tiebreaker in goals, so essentially 4).

Longshot:
2017 - He finished 11 behind McDavid, but he also missed 7 games. Ironically enough, he scored 11 points in his first 7 playoff games that playoffs. But it's a longshot because 11 points in 7 games is still a tough act.

Can’t argue with 2 locks. I don’t agree with at least 2 of the other 3, but I appreciate your write ups and categorizing them as maybes.

 

[Montag DP]

I voted Crosby based on playoff performance, but I realize there's a good chance this pick looks pretty bad ten years from now.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I'd put him at pretty much a lock for 2 more definitely, with an outside shot at a couple more.

Almost locks:
2011 concussion and 2013 lockout year he was leading by a pretty decent gap at the time of both injuries.

Maybes:
2008 - high ankle sprain slowed him down on his return otherwise his pace had him neck and neck with what Ovechkin finished with. But because he wasn't running away with anything, that's a maybe.

2015 - Benn won with 87 points in 82 games, Crosby missed 5 games and lost the Art Ross by 4 points (he actually lost by 3 points but Benn had the tiebreaker in goals, so essentially 4).

Longshot:
2017 - He finished 11 behind McDavid, but he also missed 7 games. Ironically enough, he scored 11 points in his first 7 playoff games that playoffs. But it's a longshot because 11 points in 7 games is still a tough act.

What about 2012? He had by far the highest ppg.

 

[nowhereman]

Crosby being an “elite” two way player is a myth told to children and believed by Peter Pan syndrome afflicted adult hockey fans.

And every coach he's ever played under, along with Scotty Bowman and Selke voters. Not sure if I should trust them (along with the eye test) or a salty bunch of random, nobody Oilers/Capitals fans on a message board with nothing better to do with their lives than shit-talk a legend.

Looking for clarification here. Are you suggesting that Crosby should have won an additional 4-5 Art Rosses on top of his current 2 or he would have 4-5 total as of now?

A healthy Crosby likely wins the Art Ross in 2008, 2015 and 2017 and laps the field in 2011 and 2013. Not to mention, if his skating wasn't permanently affected by his high-ankle sprain in 2008, there's no telling how dominant he could have been. As far as injuries go, he is probably the most unlucky superstar of the modern era.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

As much as Sid does, ya.

since when?

 

[norrisnick]

since when?

From the same point in time Sid became an elite two-way guy.

The point being, that if the rules of what it means to be an elite two-way player has shifted to the point to include Crosby it would also include McDavid.

 

[Rengorlex]

A healthy Crosby likely wins the Art Ross in 2008, 2015 and 2017 and laps the field in 2011 and 2013. Not to mention, if his skating wasn't permanently affected by his high-ankle sprain in 2008, there's no telling how dominant he could have been. As far as injuries go, he is probably the most unlucky superstar of the modern era.

2008, 2015 and 2017 aren't likely. He was on pace to score 112 points in 82 games when he got injured in 2008, which wouldn't have been enough for the Art Ross. In 2015 Tyler Seguin had the same p/gp as Crosby. In 2017 he would've needed 11 points in seven games, which was significantly above his pace that year.

Sure he likely wins at least one of those with a perfect health, but projecting any player to 82 games playing at the top of their capabilities is unreasonable.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

2008, 2015 and 2017 aren't likely. He was on pace to score 112 points in 82 games when he got injured in 2008, which wouldn't have been enough for the Art Ross. In 2015 Tyler Seguin had the same p/gp as Crosby. In 2017 he would've needed 11 points in seven games, which was significantly above his pace that year.

Sure he likely wins at least one of those with a perfect health, but projecting any player to 82 games playing at the top of their capabilities is unreasonable.

Crosby was on pace for 118 before he got injured in 08

Crosby was 1st in ppg in 2015, not Seguin

 

[Rengorlex]

Crosby was on pace for 118 before he got injured in 08

Crosby was 1st in ppg in 2015, not Seguin

Crosby was at 1.37 p/gp when he got injured, which works out as a 112 point pace. Even detracting the game he was injured in, it's a 115 point pace. Here's the scoring race from Jan 19th 2008:

NHL Stats

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www.nhl.com

Given that Crosby isn't ahead of the pack whatoever, doesn't lead the league in points, doesn't lead the league in points per game and didn't end up leading the league in points per game, it's a stretch to say that he would've won. Of course he could've and trophy counting is a pretty dumb way to rate players anyways.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I will die on a hill that he would have won both the 2011 and 2013 art ross n harts n everyone knows it. Especially 2013. Took a full month for anybody to pass him

 

[Suntouchable13]

I'd still take Crosby, but you still need a good supporting cast around you to win. People forget that since Crosby and the Pens won the cup in 2017, they have failed to make it past the first round since. It's not like they are some juggernaut every year and Crosby is a god. IF Connor never wins a cup it shouldn't be held against him, unless he becomes a ghost in the playoffs or something.

 

[Video Nasty]

Crosby was at 1.37 p/gp when he got injured, which works out as a 112 point pace. Even detracting the game he was injured in, it's a 115 point pace. Here's the scoring race from Jan 19th 2008:


View attachment 601890

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Given that Crosby isn't ahead of the pack whatoever, doesn't lead the league in points, doesn't lead the league in points per game and didn't end up leading the league in points per game, it's a stretch to say that he would've won. Of course he could've and trophy counting is a pretty dumb way to rate players anyways.

You sure heard crickets on this one. Probably required an emergency meeting for the cabal.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Crosby was at 1.37 p/gp when he got injured, which works out as a 112 point pace. Even detracting the game he was injured in, it's a 115 point pace. Here's the scoring race from Jan 19th 2008:


View attachment 601890

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Given that Crosby isn't ahead of the pack whatoever, doesn't lead the league in points, doesn't lead the league in points per game and didn't end up leading the league in points per game, it's a stretch to say that he would've won. Of course he could've and trophy counting is a pretty dumb way to rate players anyways.

You're correct, I missed his last game on April 2.

 

[nowhereman]

Crosby was at 1.37 p/gp when he got injured, which works out as a 112 point pace. Even detracting the game he was injured in, it's a 115 point pace. Here's the scoring race from Jan 19th 2008:


View attachment 601890

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Given that Crosby isn't ahead of the pack whatoever, doesn't lead the league in points, doesn't lead the league in points per game and didn't end up leading the league in points per game, it's a stretch to say that he would've won. Of course he could've and trophy counting is a pretty dumb way to rate players anyways.

Not a single one of the players on that list managed to maintain their pace by the end of the season, while Crosby continued to maintain that exact PPG over the next 8 seasons (and even improved on that in several individual health-ravaged seasons). I don't think it's a reach to expect a player who regularly played at that level (and has a habit of finishing strong in April) to beat those listed players and edge out OV for the Ross, especially after running away with it the year prior. I venture that OV would have still won the Hart, as his 65 goals was one of the best goalscoring seasons ever, but I'm quite sure it would have been a fight for the scoring title until the very end with Crosby the more likely winner.

2008, 2015 and 2017 aren't likely. He was on pace to score 112 points in 82 games when he got injured in 2008, which wouldn't have been enough for the Art Ross. In 2015 Tyler Seguin had the same p/gp as Crosby. In 2017 he would've needed 11 points in seven games, which was significantly above his pace that year.

Sure he likely wins at least one of those with a perfect health, but projecting any player to 82 games playing at the top of their capabilities is unreasonable.

Crosby led the league in PPG in 2015 and that's with the mumps in December (the guy almost hilariously couldn't catch a break). 2017 would have been a toss-up, you're right. But Crosby was gearing up for the playoffs and took his foot off the gas, while McDavid admitted (in the Dreger interview) that he specifically went Art Ross-hunting. If Sid doesn't lose the first bit of his season with a concussion and it's closer, the race probably goes right down to the wire and then some.

Crosby isn't guaranteed to have won all of those Art Ross trophies, had he been healthy, but I'm incredibly confident he would have had at least 3+ more (2011 and 13 are locks).

You sure heard crickets on this one. Probably required an emergency meeting for the cabal.

And, yet, here you are again leading the charge for the McDavid fanclub and completely missing the irony in your own comments.