Proposal: Creative 4-Way Cap Dump Chi/TB/Det/VGK

[ColbyChaos]

Is it? He's still good and he's cheap and his contract ends in 2 years. If Chicago wants to contend, it's probably the best deal they're gonna get.

Personally Id love to give a first for a starter who put up worse stats than 30+ goalies. Chicago doesnt need fleury they are rebuilding. Wings should give Seider and first for Strome then since Strome fills a need. See how completely dumb that logic is? Fleury isnt worth a high 1st or 2nd.

 

[thadd]

Personally Id love to give a first for a starter who put up worse stats than 30+ goalies. Chicago doesnt need fleury they are rebuilding. Wings should give Seider and first for Strome then since Strome fills a need. See how completely dumb that logic is? Fleury isnt worth a high 1st or 2nd.

Regardless of whether or not they should rebuild, I don't think it looks like they're doing that.

 

[ColbyChaos]

Regardless of whether or not they should rebuild, I don't think it looks like they're doing that.

I dont think they would give up a 1st for a backup level goalie either yet here you are...

 

[Stubu]

I can't shake the feeling that Tampa Bay sounds like Tampere. The hockey home town of teams like Tappara and Ilves where special ponies like Laine are grown in vats. "Tampereen Salama" would be like Tampa Lightning. I assume a big merger isn't doable.

 

[gach]

Here is a rather Elaborate trade proposal:

Part 1:

TB trades Johnson + 1st + 2nd to Det for "future considerations"

Part 2:

Det trades Johnson + 3rd round pick (Vegas's old pick) to Vegas
For MAF (no retention)

Part 3:
Det trades MAF (50% Retention - 3.5M) to Chicago for a 1st and 2nd round pick


What each team gets:
Detroit Obviously lots of picks.
Vegas Gets a 2C back so Glass is 3rd line C, and dumps fleury's full deal.
Chicago gets a cheap/quality Goalie or 2 years.
TB buys cap space to sign RFA's

If Johnson doesn't sound like a worthwhile player for Vegas, Does Gourde make it work??

Vegas would take a first for MAF straight up from Chicago in a blink of an eye so why would they do your trade just to make wings better

 

[francaisvolantsparis]

First of all, I love this thread.
I've seen the 4+ team trade proposals constantly and instantly shutdown by mods.

I whould like to make a 4 team trade proposal like this one Proposal: - VGK/WSH/EDM/NJD in the future. Can I? Or is this thread just special?

 

[8999]

First of all, I love this thread.
I've seen the 4+ team trade proposals constantly and instantly shutdown by mods.

I whould like to make a 4 team trade proposal like this one Proposal: - VGK/WSH/EDM/NJD in the future. Can I? Or is this thread just special?

Just make sure one of the teams is a magical team that gets paid to receive players that are cap dumps but when they go and trade away those same players, they suddenly become valuable assets.

 

[BinCookin]

Just make sure one of the teams is a magical team that gets paid to receive players that are cap dumps but when they go and trade away those same players, they suddenly become valuable assets.

Too be fair... My error was judging Chicago to want a Goalie... they don't so my value for them is off by a lot.


I think this helps TB...

I think this helps VGK...

Obviously as a wings fan I'm doing it for picks.

All I need is a team that will pay some picks for a 3.5M Fleury.


Also here is why it works only as a 4 way deal.

VGK do NOT want to retain any money on Fluery. So they cant trade him with retention themselves, they need to dump the whole contract.
TB wants to dump Johnson or Gourde, but their contracts are too long for Detroit to take or retain in a flip deal. (Because they are win now players., So only Vegas wants those types of players.

TB wouldn't trade with Vegas on their own, because they need Detroit to dump Fleury to.
The team that wants Fleury needs Detroit to take on the whole contract and then Retain.


Personally my values may be off... But If I were to rewrite this trade as this:

TB trades Johnson + 2nd round pick to Detroit.

Detroit trades Johnson to Vegas for Fleury + 2nd round pick.

Detroit retains on Fleury 50% to the 4th team that wants cheap Fleury for a 2nd round pick.


Thus Detroit would get 3 2nd rounders. How to do you like that for Value?

Also NONE of these players can move WITHOUT Detroit... Thats why they get all the picks.

 

[BinCookin]

I updated the OP... can a MOD add the word updated to this thread title????

 

[BinCookin]

First of all, I love this thread.
I've seen the 4+ team trade proposals constantly and instantly shutdown by mods.

I whould like to make a 4 team trade proposal like this one Proposal: - VGK/WSH/EDM/NJD in the future. Can I? Or is this thread just special?

I mean its a weird situation, I kinda feel like the trade works. It just needed some value adjustments. I updated the OP.

 

[Long Live Lyle]

Here is an UPDATED VERSION of my Elaborate trade proposal:

Part 1: TB trades Y. Gourde + 2nd Round Pick to DET
Part 2: DET trades Y. Gourde to VGK for Fleury + 2nd Round Pick
Part 3: DET trades Fluery at 50% Retention to [Mystery Team 4] for a 2nd Round Pick.

Also here is why it works only as a 4 way deal.

VGK cant retain any money on Fluery, so they cant trade him with retention themselves. They Also need a 2nd line C. Gourde isn't elite, but hes way better than using 12M in Goalies.
TB wants to dump $$, also Gourde may waive to go to VGK.
[Mystery Team 4] will get Fleury on the cheap for 2 years.
DET gets 3 2nd round picks.

I lowered the Return for Detroit just to see where everyone stands, Obviously I would like to get as much as possible... which one of these teams should pay more or less??
Who would be the 4th Team? (Detroit could take a Goalie back for more Value etc etc)


*********************************************************************************

PAGES 1-5 Reply's to the Old Trade:

Here is a rather Elaborate trade proposal:
Part 1:
TB trades Johnson + 1st + 2nd to Det for "future considerations"
Part 2:
Det trades Johnson + 3rd round pick (Vegas's old pick) to Vegas
For MAF (no retention)
Part 3:
Det trades MAF (50% Retention - 3.5M) to Chicago for a 1st and 2nd round pick. (***This is where the post went off the rails due to value issues and me not knowing Chicago is rebuilding***)

It’s certainly creative. I don’t think Detroit would pay $6.25M over two years (Fleury’s $12.5M remaining salary at 50%) in the pandemic environment just for three second-round picks that will likely all be in the 50s (assuming “mystery team” is a team relatively well-positioned if they’re going after Fleury).

 

[BinCookin]

It’s certainly creative. I don’t think Detroit would pay $6.25M over two years (Fleury’s $12.5M remaining salary at 50%) in the pandemic environment just for three second-round picks that will likely all be in the 50s (assuming “mystery team” is a team relatively well-positioned if they’re going after Fleury).

I am trying to avoid the thread derailing due to "value" and just look at who would do it.
I personally would want a 1st rounder at least out of 1 of the 3 teams involved.
(The most likely team that's in the most trouble would be TB, so maybe they would trade their first to pull it off)

 

[8999]

Too be fair... My error was judging Chicago to want a Goalie... they don't so my value for them is off by a lot.


I think this helps TB...

I think this helps VGK...

Obviously as a wings fan I'm doing it for picks.

All I need is a team that will pay some picks for a 3.5M Fleury.


Also here is why it works only as a 4 way deal.

VGK do NOT want to retain any money on Fluery. So they cant trade him with retention themselves, they need to dump the whole contract.
TB wants to dump Johnson or Gourde, but their contracts are too long for Detroit to take or retain in a flip deal. (Because they are win now players., So only Vegas wants those types of players.

TB wouldn't trade with Vegas on their own, because they need Detroit to dump Fleury to.
The team that wants Fleury needs Detroit to take on the whole contract and then Retain.


Personally my values may be off... But If I were to rewrite this trade as this:

TB trades Johnson + 2nd round pick to Detroit.

Detroit trades Johnson to Vegas for Fleury + 2nd round pick.

Detroit retains on Fleury 50% to the 4th team that wants cheap Fleury for a 2nd round pick.


Thus Detroit would get 3 2nd rounders. How to do you like that for Value?

Also NONE of these players can move WITHOUT Detroit... Thats why they get all the picks.

Appreciate you going into this detail. Here's my thoughts in blue on your new proposal below:

TB trades Johnson + 2nd round pick to Detroit. => Think it costs TBL a 1st+ to dump Johnson

Detroit trades Johnson to Vegas for Fleury + 2nd round pick. => Think I disagree with VGK wanting TJ at all; even though they want a C, I think TJ is not that C and would be a cap dump to them. But also, in trade 1, it costs a 2nd to dump Johnson. Why is the cost to dump Johnson from DET to VGK different?
Either way, I think TJ is more expensive to dump than Fleury (Like you said, even DET probably couldn't stomach taking him as a dump; and I don't think VGK is any different). So if Johnson and Fleury are being swapped, I think the sweeteners should net out to being positive for the team receiving TJ.

Detroit retains on Fleury 50% to the 4th team that wants cheap Fleury for a 2nd round pick. => If Team 4 is willing to give anything positive for Fleury @50%, VGK can do that part themselves and give DET a 1st(+) to retain 50%.

Thus Detroit would get 3 2nd rounders. How to do you like that for Value? => DET will probably end up with at least a 1st for retaining 50% of Fleury's cap. At the end of the day, I don't think what DET would receive in your four-team trade should be different from what they would get in a three-team Fleury trade.

Maybe the issue is the following:
The team that wants Fleury needs Detroit to take on the whole contract and then Retain. => disagree that things have to happen sequentially like this; VGK can do a 3-way trade within your 4-way trade to dump 50% salary to DET and trade Fleury @50% to Team 4 at the same time. These trades don't require a middleman with space for the whole cap hit.

 

[BinCookin]

Appreciate you going into this detail. Here's my thoughts in blue on your new proposal below:

1)=> Think it costs TBL a 1st+ to dump Johnson

2) => Think I disagree with VGK wanting TJ at all

3) => If Team 4 is willing to give anything positive for Fleury @50%, VGK can do that part themselves and give DET a 1st(+) to retain 50%.

4) => DET will probably end up with at least a 1st for retaining 50% of Fleury's cap. At the end of the day, I don't think what DET would receive in your four-team trade should be different from what they would get in a three-team Fleury trade.

Maybe the issue is the following:
5) => disagree that things have to happen sequentially like this; VGK can do a 3-way trade within your 4-way trade to dump 50% salary to DET and trade Fleury @50% to Team 4 at the same time. These trades don't require a middleman with space for the whole cap hit.

1). I agree. I did also change the name in the OP to Yanni Gourde. Assuming no one likes Johnson, so I removed him.
Not sure if TB has to pay a first to dump Gourde, but I do think TB would need to pay a 1st to get out of their crazy jam. I put in a 2nd to just create discussion without the hate.
2). Switched to Gourde in OP, you think the same about him?
3) You really. think Fleury is that bad huh? I think he is still a capable starter. Possibly a good one.
4) The thing is, VGK could do 2 separate trades to get a 2nd line C. But I kinda feel like the team most likely to do that with them is TB.
5) TB and VGK really cant retain anything in these trades. So they kinda do need a middle man. Seems there is absolutely no appetite for the players at full salary... Even good players in the current environment.

 

[8999]

1). I agree. I did also change the name in the OP to Yanni Gourde. Assuming no one likes Johnson, so I removed him.
Not sure if TB has to pay a first to dump Gourde, but I do think TB would need to pay a 1st to get out of their crazy jam. I put in a 2nd to just create discussion without the hate.
2). Switched to Gourde in OP, you think the same about him?
3) You really. think Fleury is that bad huh? I think he is still a capable starter. Possibly a good one.
4) The thing is, VGK could do 2 separate trades to get a 2nd line C. But I kinda feel like the team most likely to do that with them is TB.
5) TB and VGK really cant retain anything in these trades. So they kinda do need a middle man. Seems there is absolutely no appetite for the players at full salary... Even good players in the current environment.

Right VGK cannot retain but my point is they don't need to send Fleury @100% to DET and then have DET send Fleury @50% to Team 4. VGK can simply send 50% to DET (with a sweetener) and send Fleury @50% to Team 4 directly. VGK doesn't retain anything and the MAF pieces end up in the same places in both scenarios (except any returns from Team 4 would go to VGK). It's the 3-way trade they were reportedly trying to pursue.

I don't think Fleury is bad but teams were negotiating based on VGK's terrible cap situation. VGK eventually ended up deciding to practically give away Schmidt (instead of doing the costly Fleury dump) to make room for Pietrangelo. And I don't think they are going to do something this painful for a player like Gourde. If Stamkos were available, maybe.

 

[BinCookin]

Right VGK cannot retain but my point is they don't need to send Fleury @100% to DET and then have DET send Fleury @50% to Team 4. VGK can simply send 50% to DET (with a sweetener) and send Fleury @50% to Team 4 directly. VGK doesn't retain anything and the MAF pieces end up in the same places in both scenarios (except any returns from Team 4 would go to VGK). It's the 3-way trade they were reportedly trying to pursue.

I think I get what you are saying... Maybe Team 4 agrees to give VGS something for Fleury in the deal.

But I think in any of these retention deals. The "Official" move is Fleury is traded to Detroit, Retained salary by Detroit, and then immediately moved to Team 4. In regards to Fleury himself.

Team 4 could then give assets to VGK directly. a la ( Blackhawks deal Lehner to Golden Knights in 3-way trade ) (Lehner Deal). So I get what you are saying.

In either case. I would be suggesting that Detroit (especially with my low asks in the trade would take all the assets for moving these guys around.

 

[8999]

I think I get what you are saying... Maybe Team 4 agrees to give VGS something for Fleury in the deal.

But I think in any of these retention deals. The "Official" move is Fleury is traded to Detroit, Retained salary by Detroit, and then immediately moved to Team 4. In regards to Fleury himself.

Team 4 could then give assets to VGK directly. a la ( Blackhawks deal Lehner to Golden Knights in 3-way trade ) (Lehner Deal). So I get what you are saying.

In either case. I would be suggesting that Detroit (especially with my low asks in the trade would take all the assets for moving these guys around.

It's possible that DET ends up with everything you said (returns from both VGK and Team 4). But it would be because they negotiated with VGK for that higher price, not because VGK needs a team with 7m cap space in the middle (teams are allowed to be briefly over the cap, anyway).

I'm pretty sure this trade can be done involving a team with less than 7m in cap space right now in DET's place (as long as they have 3.5m)... just like how DET doesn't need to be on MAF's approved trade list for this transaction to go through, as long as MAF is fine with Team 4. So the hot minute that the player 'spends in DET' is meaningless and doesn't really provide any leverage or value.

 

[BinCookin]

It's possible that DET ends up with everything you said (returns from both VGK and Team 4). But it would be because they negotiated with VGK for that higher price, not because VGK needs a team with 7m cap space in the middle (teams are allowed to be briefly over the cap, anyway).

I'm pretty sure this trade can be done involving a team with less than 7m in cap space right now in DET's place (as long as they have 3.5m)... just like how DET doesn't need to be on MAF's approved trade list for this transaction to go through, as long as MAF is fine with Team 4. So the hot minute that the player 'spends in DET' is meaningless and doesn't really provide any leverage or value.

Well id say without the team in the middle. Fleury doesn't move.. So there is leverage.

If the team in the middle wants to just throw away 3.5M for 2 years.... Sure any team could do that...

But who other than Det, LAK, Ott would throw away cap room? (I think there are very few teams that are looking to retain on salary, especially right now)... In fact its very possible Detroit doesn't want to waste money right now... so its possible this whole suggestion is completely moot.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

First of all, I love this thread.
I've seen the 4+ team trade proposals constantly and instantly shutdown by mods.

I whould like to make a 4 team trade proposal like this one Proposal: - VGK/WSH/EDM/NJD in the future. Can I? Or is this thread just special?

To be fair most of the four team deals are WAY more lopsided even than this. And if you can't see the difference between Fleury at 7M x 2 as an asset and Fleury at 3.5M x 2 as an asset, I can't help you. Also, a lot of times, the 4+ team trades are more likely to be repeat posters of the deals, which is why mods will jump on and close them up. Because guys have a history of posting nonsense. Bin goes too far with this deal, but he's not got a long history of bernmeister trades, for example.

 

[8999]

To be fair most of the four team deals are WAY more lopsided even than this. And if you can't see the difference between Fleury at 7M x 2 as an asset and Fleury at 3.5M x 2 as an asset, I can't help you. Also, a lot of times, the 4+ team trades are more likely to be repeat posters of the deals, which is why mods will jump on and close them up. Because guys have a history of posting nonsense. Bin goes too far with this deal, but he's not got a long history of bernmeister trades, for example.

In the original proposal it wasn't even about lopsided values, it was the subsequent trade logic based on those values that didn't make sense.

Look at it from VGK's point of view. If Fleury @50% returns a 1st and 2nd, VGK is just retaining half and trading Fleury @50%, grabbing the picks and simply moving someone else to free up space (the OP trade ignores that other players and teams do exist). At worst, if they must dump the 50% salary, the cost of dumping the 50% of salary is a 1st & 2nd so moving Fleury should leave VGK net flat.

Furthermore, VGK is also taking TJ, which DET got a 1st and 2nd from TBL to take. But when DET deals TJ to VGK, DET only needs to add a 3rd? Apparently, TJ suddenly has extra value of (1st + 2nd - 3rd) to VGK b/c he is a C? Or maybe GM Yzerman is such a better negotiator than GM Brisebois that he generates positive value out of thin air? Again, if TJ somehow has such value to any team, TBL deals with them directly.

VGK and TBL are in tough situations but it's not so extreme that there is only one team in the league they can each deal with.