Confirmed with Link: Craig Berube named the 32nd Coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs

[usernamezrhardtodo]

We really didn’t start it correctly, spending a 1st++ on a mentally fragile goalie and 2 2nds on 4th liner rentals when we had glaring holes on D already started it off on a rushed foot. Either front run Tampa on the McDonagh + Miller for 1st + 2nd + 2nd deal or keep your picks and sell off Bozak, JVR, etc and keep building out your prospect pool. Forgetting the rebuild because we made it to the playoffs by a hair set an awful precedent.

I often go back to the first playoffs and think it started a way of thinking that ended up costing us a lot of good young players. Had we sold off like we should have instead of thinking we were the next Chicago...we would have had plenty in the cupboards to deal at a later time when we would have needed to. I still think Lou was pushed by Shanny to do it...but he should have said no. Maybe he went along with it because he only had a 3yr deal....we shall never know the truth.

 

[Gabriel426]

This is the first thing I thought of when reading the comments in this thread. What Ray Ferraro said was shocking, and I respect his takes. He’s well spoken and doesn’t just talk for the sake of talking. I also thought of a podcast (Jay Rosehill or Sean Avery) where one of them went off on the fact that Marner was golfing the day after being eliminated from the playoffs. I know it’s not his game, but it would be nice if he showed he cared. Words mean nothing, especially after 8 long seasons.

That’s my thought exactly. Ray is not someone who drum up controversy and hot take to get clicks and views.
When he said something like that, it’s not a good look.

 

[Martin Skoula]

I often go back to the first playoffs and think it started a way of thinking that ended up costing us a lot of good young players. Had we sold off like we should have instead of thinking we were the next Chicago...we would have had plenty in the cupboards to deal at a later time when we would have needed to. I still think Lou was pushed by Shanny to do it...but he should have said no. Maybe he went along with it because he only had a 3yr deal....we shall never know the truth.

It’s ok if they decided to spend assets year 1 but go for prime aged long term adds like McDonagh + Miller, we spent a 1st round pick less on renting 2 4th liners.

 

[DarkKnight]

I mean, hes elite against soft teams in the Reg season and gets most of his points against shitty teams or in blow out wins... Rarely does he do stuff in hard hitting games against top teams and playing well... I mean it happens but not often.

Actually not true, think a couple years ago had more points against top ten defensive teams than the bottom which is completely counter intuitive. Apart from that, what scorer doesn't feast on the shit teams?

 

[ITM]

I thought the arguments re Marner were obvious. Marner's "form" in the playoffs vs. the regular season are vastly different. Marner is a soft $4 million (or less) "defensive forward" in the playoffs. The juice ain't worth the squeeze.

So, this is twice you're taking a shot while taking two things out of context that I meant literally. And I've answered the first part in another thread, so I take it this is some sort of dig?

I don't think you understand what I'm asking and why I'm asking it.

Again, Marner's form as I use it is literal in both instances, not figurative.

It's my opinion his form got worse after his big contract, meaning, I believe from junior and during his time with Babcock there was the makings of a player I wouldn't trade. BEFORE WE DO, I want to be sure everything about Marner is examined.

In the response you quote I say that he's all but played his way off the team and I agree. Again, not sure what you're reading.

I get you want Marner gone yesterday and that you have extreme prejudice in making sure any question about moving him is skewed towards ridicule. But I would caution repeating that prejudice in successive threads with the same members. It's an exercise in recording your bias that's going to undermine your end.

In no universe is a yearly nigh-100 point player a $4M dollar player. Marner's a $9M player all day.

And my point is, IF/WHEN he returns to the form he showed from junior and into those first few years, we are going to wish we at least asked the hard questions before he was dealt, because our fanbase and this organization has a tragic record of dealing the wrong player at the wrong time when it seems like the right time and the right player.

And emotion and bias aside, I want us to be as serious a fanbase as we are a zealous one. Because there's obviously something in our mix and midst that destroys everything.

And I'm sick of it.

 

[notDatsyuk]

In no universe is a yearly nigh-100 point player a $4M dollar player. Marner's a $9M player all day.

His point was that Marner is a $4M player "in the playoffs".

In the last two playoff series he has 6 points in 12 games - a 41 point pace, not a "nigh-100 point pace".

In the same two series, Willy has 5 goals in 9 games - a 45 goal pace.

If 45 goals is worth $6.9M, what is 41 points worth?

 

[ITM]

His point was that Marner is a $4M player "in the playoffs".

In the last two playoff series he has 6 points in 12 games - a 41 point pace, not a "nigh-100 point pace".

In the same two series, Willy has 5 goals in 9 games - a 45 goal pace.

If 45 goals is worth $6.9M, what is 41 points worth?

There isn’t a poster in our ranks who has championed Nylander more than me. I’m aware of both stat lines.

There is no context where Marner is a $4M dollar player. It’s an abstraction based on frustration and I get it.

I’m just not willing to appear collegial in order to feed said abstraction no matter the perception of Marner’s recent form.

 

[Gabriel426]

It’s ok if they decided to spend assets year 1 but go for prime aged long term adds like McDonagh + Miller, we spent a 1st round pick less on renting 2 4th liners.

Imagine we actually paid a bit more for McDonagh and Miller.

 

[notDatsyuk]

There isn’t a poster in our ranks who has championed Nylander more than me. I’m aware of both stat lines.

There is no context where Marner is a $4M dollar player. It’s an abstraction based on frustration and I get it.

I’m just not willing to appear collegial in order to feed said abstraction no matter the perception of Marner’s recent form.

So what do you think a 14G 27A pace is worth?

 

[ITM]

So what do you think a 14G 27A pace is worth?

With all due respect, it’s a small enough gotcha to ignore, OR:

Do you agree that Marner and Lyubushkin should be paid the same and if not, why not, and what should those contracts look like?

Outside of the context of Marner’s previous playoffs and regular season scoring pace, in today’s market, 40 points for a forward, depending on the intangibles is probably in the $5 million dollar range.

In terms of actual contribution vs potential contribution, what is a 27 year old consistent 95 point scoring winger in the regular who has scored near a ppg avg in the playoffs worth?

 

[Gary Nylund]

You're the one ranting and raving and then saying I'm upset. LOL. I asked honest questions and you are losing your shit. Either answer or don't. But getting this pissy over some simple questions make you seem a little unhinged. You seriously come to a hockey board to get angry over someone asking a question not even directed at you? You don't even back up what you are raving about. You just keep telling me you are the authority on this board.

If you notice, I'm not pushing the subject. Those who give me an answer get a "like" whether I 100% agree or not.

You want me to read every thread and every post? Go touch grass kid. You might have time to live on this board but some people have better things to do.

Try replying with something hockey based. Or cry more, both are entertaining.

You're being a drama queen and the only one ranting, raving and losing their shit is you. And what's with this BS that I "want me to read every thread and every post"? I never said any such thing, why are you lying? We're going in circles here and instead of wasting more time on this nonsense, I'll just copy paste what I posted earlier. Maybe read it again, let it sink in and stop making a fool of yourself.


You are wrong, a number people have told you you're wrong and if you refuse to look at some other threads to see for yourself then that's fine but I have better things to do with my time than to find these posts for you. They're easy enough to find, all you have to do is look and if you're too lazy to click your mouse a few times in other threads and you'd prefer to stay ignorant in this matter, that's fine too.

If you're upset, I'm sorry about that. All I did was point out how wrong you are to think that only Marner is being blamed, and I find it hard to understand how a person who's been here since 2012 and has made almost 8000 posts could be so blissfully unaware of what's going on.

There isn’t a poster in our ranks who has championed Nylander more than me. I’m aware of both stat lines.

There is no context where Marner is a $4M dollar player. It’s an abstraction based on frustration and I get it.

I’m just not willing to appear collegial in order to feed said abstraction no matter the perception of Marner’s recent form.

Not even the specific playoff series in question? I mean I wouldn't want to get hung up on specific numbers but I will say that for the series in question, Marner was a helluva lot closer to a $4M dollar player than he was to an $11M player.

 

[Gary Nylund]

This is the first thing I thought of when reading the comments in this thread. What Ray Ferraro said was shocking, and I respect his takes. He’s well spoken and doesn’t just talk for the sake of talking. I also thought of a podcast (Jay Rosehill or Sean Avery) where one of them went off on the fact that Marner was golfing the day after being eliminated from the playoffs. I know it’s not his game, but it would be nice if he showed he cared. Words mean nothing, especially after 8 long seasons.

If that's true, then just wow! Marner grew up in this town so he should know how bad this looks. This kid seems to have no self awareness whatsoever, just incredible stuff.

 

[ITM]

Not even the specific playoff series in question? I mean I wouldn't want to get hung up on specific numbers but I will say that for the series in question, Marner was a helluva lot closer to a $4M dollar player than he was to an $11M player.

Did you read both posts in context?

If you did, you’ve missed the point and are falling into the trap of recency bias in the worst way.

I believe Marner was worth LESS than a $4M dollar player in the playoffs. Ossified as my heart has become to the outcome prior to the start of the playoffs, there is nothing served in conveniently forgetting the corpus of Marner’s work.

 

[ACC1224]

This is the first thing I thought of when reading the comments in this thread. What Ray Ferraro said was shocking, and I respect his takes. He’s well spoken and doesn’t just talk for the sake of talking. I also thought of a podcast (Jay Rosehill or Sean Avery) where one of them went off on the fact that Marner was golfing the day after being eliminated from the playoffs. I know it’s not his game, but it would be nice if he showed he cared. Words mean nothing, especially after 8 long seasons.

Common sense would tell you that’s not true.
The things people come up with.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

This is the first thing I thought of when reading the comments in this thread. What Ray Ferraro said was shocking, and I respect his takes. He’s well spoken and doesn’t just talk for the sake of talking. I also thought of a podcast (Jay Rosehill or Sean Avery) where one of them went off on the fact that Marner was golfing the day after being eliminated from the playoffs. I know it’s not his game, but it would be nice if he showed he cared. Words mean nothing, especially after 8 long seasons.

Golfing eh? I wonder why Mitchy didn't go play in the worlds with his buddy Tavares? He could help his country win something.

No money in it?

 

[IPS]

The narrative that MM is being singled out is overblown.

He's not getting singled out. He's getting rightful criticism he deserves. Him and Tavares were the only 2 healthy core members going into that series and they turned out to be the worst 2 performers of them. When Ilya Lyubushkin tied/exceeded your $11M scoring winger/center in points he obviously had a horrible series.

 

[GrizzLeaf]

I like the hire. At this point the team needed to move on. Change for change sake actually works when it comes to NHL coaches.

Berube is a decent coach with a no nonsense approach. Just what this team needs for that extra push.

Don't really put alot into a coach won a cup or not. Certainly the crap posters are writing about it being 5 yrs ago.

A little history for you. Only 3 coaches ever won a cup with more than one team. Only one coach in the modern hockey era. 2 were in the 1940s. Only one within my lifetime.

Basically a coach grows and adjusts with his team and vice versa, to win a cup.

 

[Nineteen67]

I like the hire. At this point the team needed to move on. Change for change sake actually works when it comes to NHL coaches.

Berube is a decent coach with a no nonsense approach. Just what this team needs for that extra push.

Don't really put alot into a coach won a cup or not. Certainly the crap posters are writing about it being 5 yrs ago.

A little history for you. Only 3 coaches ever won a cup with more than one team. Only one coach in the modern hockey era. 2 were in the 1940s. Only one within my lifetime.

Basically a coach grows and adjusts with his team and vice versa, to win a cup.

Winning the Cup is not likely to happen with Berube and Treliving, but there’s a chance they may make them competitive and maybe even entertaining to watch.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

So, this is twice you're taking a shot while taking two things out of context that I meant literally. And I've answered the first part in another thread, so I take it this is some sort of dig?

I don't think you understand what I'm asking and why I'm asking it.

Again, Marner's form as I use it is literal in both instances, not figurative.

It's my opinion his form got worse after his big contract, meaning, I believe from junior and during his time with Babcock there was the makings of a player I wouldn't trade. BEFORE WE DO, I want to be sure everything about Marner is examined.

In the response you quote I say that he's all but played his way off the team and I agree. Again, not sure what you're reading.

I get you want Marner gone yesterday and that you have extreme prejudice in making sure any question about moving him is skewed towards ridicule. But I would caution repeating that prejudice in successive threads with the same members. It's an exercise in recording your bias that's going to undermine your end.

In no universe is a yearly nigh-100 point player a $4M dollar player. Marner's a $9M player all day.

And my point is, IF/WHEN he returns to the form he showed from junior and into those first few years, we are going to wish we at least asked the hard questions before he was dealt, because our fanbase and this organization has a tragic record of dealing the wrong player at the wrong time when it seems like the right time and the right player.

And emotion and bias aside, I want us to be as serious a fanbase as we are a zealous one. Because there's obviously something in our mix and midst that destroys everything.

And I'm sick of it.

The point ITM is that there's no "form" for Marner to "return to", at least at the NHL level. He is what he is. In addition, to clarify, I didn't mean Marner is worth 4 million I meant defensive forwards are worth 4 million and if that's all Marner is going to be in the playoffs he isn't worth his big salary (which is based upon regular season points performance) hence "the juice ain't worth the squeeze".

One more thing. My "bias" as you've called it is due to the fact I want MY TEAM to win the Stanley Cup, and it's been quite proven that the current cap structure of the team and the playoff performance(s) of the highly paid forwards has not added up to success. All 4 of those forwards have failed at one time or another, but given current circumstances (34 and 88 signed to long term deals, Tavares and Marner on expiring deals) now is the time to move on and restructure the make up of the team. It's my opinion that 34 and 88 do have the physical tools and mental makeup to "get it", Tavares tries but is physically unable, and Marner simply lacks those qualities.

 

[Nineteen67]

He's not getting singled out. He's getting rightful criticism he deserves. Him and Tavares were the only 2 healthy core members going into that series and they turned out to be the worst 2 performers of them. When Ilya Lyubushkin tied/exceeded your $11M scoring winger/center in points he obviously had a horrible series.

You can’t ignore Matthews. He wasn’t good again in the playoffs and his lack of leadership was on full display on locker clean out day. I think Pelley noticed it as well.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

His point was that Marner is a $4M player "in the playoffs".

In the last two playoff series he has 6 points in 12 games - a 41 point pace, not a "nigh-100 point pace".

In the same two series, Willy has 5 goals in 9 games - a 45 goal pace.

If 45 goals is worth $6.9M, what is 41 points worth?

I don't know why that point didn't come thru for some.

 

[Trapper]

You can’t ignore Matthews. He wasn’t good again in the playoffs and his lack of leadership was on full display on locker clean out day. I think Pelley noticed it as well.

It’s not all the fault of one player, it’s the entire core repeatedly failing.
That’s why 2 need to go at least. As a group it doesn’t have it so you need to minimize the group without blowing it up.
Year one: Move Marner
Year two: walk from Tavares
Year three: reevaluate Rielly based on how you altered/improved the D.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Did you read both posts in context?

If you did, you’ve missed the point and are falling into the trap of recency bias in the worst way.

I believe Marner was worth LESS than a $4M dollar player in the playoffs. Ossified as my heart has become to the outcome prior to the start of the playoffs, there is nothing served in conveniently forgetting the corpus of Marner’s work.

ITM it's NOT recency bias. Marner's playoff performance has ALWAYS been like this. He fades in games 4-7. It's a pattern and others have done the research and published the stats in this forum.

 

[GrizzLeaf]

Winning the Cup is not likely to happen with Berube and Treliving, but there’s a chance they may make them competitive and maybe even entertaining to watch.

Could be, you're right. But I believe this group, team and staff have as good a chance now as they've ever had. Just need some off season moves that improve the team some more.

I'm pretty sure cup wins need a good mix of smart moves from the GM, decent coaching and alot of luck.

The team will need a good mix of skill and role players.

 

[Nineteen67]

It’s not all the fault of one player, it’s the entire core repeatedly failing.
That’s why 2 need to go at least. As a group it doesn’t have it so you need to minimize the group without blowing it up.
Year one: Move Marner
Year two: walk from Tavares
Year three: reevaluate Rielly based on how you altered/improved the D.

None of the core have shown they’ll ever be a major contributor on a Cup winning team.