OT: Covid-19 (Part 51) - An Omicron Christmas and Closing New Year!

[Treb]

Last part: OT: - Covid-19 (Part 50) You Better Watch Out

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[Licou]

On the other hand, if various treatment protocols including ivermectin or other banned treatments did in fact have positive health effects as many doctors and studies claimed, those responsible for banning them as treatment options have the blood of thousands or even millions on their hands. It's not as though there were a host of other amazing therapeutic options available for prophylactic prevention or early symptom treatment... there were not even vaccines available at the early stage of the pandemic when these treatments were banned.

The bizarre broad-spectrum media campaign around ivermectin being a dangerous 'horse dewormer' when it won the Nobel Prize for it's treatment of river blindness in humans in 2015 is exceptionally difficult to rationalize.

It was demonstrated multiple times by different well constructed double blinded randomized studies that ivermectin and no demonstrable effect as a prophylactic drug or as a treatment drug. Don't "if" your way out of this.... Blood of thousands on theirs hands.. are you serious here? What about anti vaccination efforts, do they have blood on their hands?

As for your second point, I kind of agree that whoever was pushing this horse dewormer narrative was really doing a disservice to truth. Ivermectin is indeed an amazing drug at what it does.

 

[Milhouse40]

It was demonstrated multiple times by different well constructed double blinded randomized studies that ivermectin and no demonstrable effect as a prophylactic drug or as a treatment drug. Don't "if" your way out of this.... Blood of thousands on theirs hands.. are you serious here? What about anti vaccination efforts, do they have blood on their hands?

As for your second point, I kind of agree that whoever was pushing this horse dewormer narrative was really doing a disservice to truth. Ivermectin is indeed an amazing drug at what it does.

Those pushing Ivermectin are the same that is pushing anti-vaccine.....those people really have blood on their hands and it's proven.

 

[Phil Parent]

In my head canon, the refrain to THAT Mariah Carey christmas song goes "Merry f***ing Christmas to youuuuuuuuu"

Well today's pressers by our PMs at noon and 6PM will send that message to everybody.

And I get it. Still, I'm an hopeful person. I want to believe that with Omicron, COVID has started to mutate out of being a threat, since signs in various countries point at it not making people as sick as previous variants, and I hope that that only goes one way and that the next one won't become the new Ebola. But people are so tired.

 

[OnTheRun]

It was demonstrated multiple times by different well constructed double blinded randomized studies that ivermectin and no demonstrable effect as a prophylactic drug or as a treatment drug. Don't "if" your way out of this.... Blood of thousands on theirs hands.. are you serious here? What about anti vaccination efforts, do they have blood on their hands?

As for your second point, I kind of agree that whoever was pushing this horse dewormer narrative was really doing a disservice to truth. Ivermectin is indeed an amazing drug at what it does.

Because it's a prescription drug and people who decided to self medicate had to turn to the black market or to products intended for animals. And it's also worth noting that there is no guaranty you won't get the "horse dewormer" labeled as human approved if you were to purchase Ivermectin on the unregulated market.

 

[waffledave]

Those pushing Ivermectin are the same that is pushing anti-vaccine.....those people really have blood on their hands and it's proven.

It's the wrong peoples blood unfortunately.

 

[dcyhabs]

Sigh. In response to the conversation in the previous threads about pharmacists and pharma companies overruling doctors there are a few points:

• The idea is to have checks and balances. Pharma produces drugs. Physician prescribes drugs. Pharmacists provides drugs. Lots of people die every year from medical errors, pharmacists try to prevent that. Generally speaking none of these people will block others, though they may provide more information and call to confirm.
  
• Pharma companies spend a lot of money convincing doctors to prescribe. Sometimes good, sometimes bad.
• The problem in this case is not that there is any disagreement among anyone who actually knows anything. Doctors know what ivermectin is for. Pharmacists know what ivermectin is for, so do pharma companies. The problem is that loads of uninformed people want to take ivermectin for COVID instead of something that will help them.
  
• Pretty much everyone honest and knowledgeable agrees with the above point. If you have other sources those sources are pretty much guaranteed to be in bad faith or informed by sources that are dishonest. Not mistaken, dishonest. Take ivermectin if you have parasitic infections. Take COVID medication for COVID.
• Parasitic infections are very, very common in hot countries, like South Africa where the link with COVID was made. Parasitic infections are very rare in Canada. You are not likely to get any benefit from taking ivermectin. Giving ivermectin to a random person on the street in some tropical countries could make them healthier, chances are vanishingly remote in cold countries.
  
• Many people asking for ivermectin went to vets because vets often won't worry as much about dosages or prescriptions. Veterinarians quickly lost patience with the people who were self-prescribing, especially as they started experiencing shortages of medication that they actually do need.

To summarize: there is no plot to prevent people from using ivermectin, but lots of people are trying to prevent incorrect self-medication. Medical personnel are, understandably, completely fed up with this.

 

[dcyhabs]

Because it's a prescription drug and people who decided to self medicate had to turn to the black market or to products intended for animals. And it's also worth noting that there is no guaranty you won't get the "horse dewormer" labeled as human approved if you were to purchase Ivermectin on the unregulated market.

Not sure there is much difference beyond the dosage. Taking random dosages, or equine dosages could be quite unpleasant. Pretty much guaranteed not to help you in Canada unless you just came home from a jungle safari.

Weird how people can be totally gullible for initial information and then shut down, completely impervious to correction.

 

[Treb]

Not sure there is much difference beyond the dosage. Taking random dosages, or equine dosages could be quite unpleasant. Pretty much guaranteed not to help you in Canada unless you just came home from a jungle safari.

Weird how people can be totally gullible for initial information and then shut down, completely impervious to correction.

I believe quality control is less strict for animal drugs.

Edit: also not the same non-medicinal ingredients.

 

[FrankMTL]

I swear, I have the attention span of a squirrel sometimes. I went on twitter to get the latest COVID numbers from Sante Quebec and instead I ended up looking at pictures of Dua Lipa in a swimsuit wearing Hello Kitty fur boots...

 

[Licou]

I swear, I have the attention span of a squirrel sometimes. I went on twitter to get the latest COVID numbers from Sante Quebec and instead I ended up looking at pictures of Dua Lipa in a swimsuit wearing Hello Kitty fur boots...

Squirrels are more focused on nuts though.

 

[solidaritypucks]

It was demonstrated multiple times by different well constructed double blinded randomized studies that ivermectin and no demonstrable effect as a prophylactic drug or as a treatment drug. Don't "if" your way out of this.... Blood of thousands on theirs hands.. are you serious here? What about anti vaccination efforts, do they have blood on their hands?

As for your second point, I kind of agree that whoever was pushing this horse dewormer narrative was really doing a disservice to truth. Ivermectin is indeed an amazing drug at what it does.

There are many professionals and studies that claim the effectiveness of various drugs and protocols and also many that claim ineffectiveness. Where the reality lies in the actual effectiveness of various protocols is certainly more of an open debate than any sort of concrete certainty. There are in fact many places in this world where drugs like ivermectin and others are still used as a treatment or a prophylactic for COVID.

If an effective protocol was banned without cause then there is absolutely a human cost associated with that. If an effective protocol was banned due to some form of corporate lobbying I would certainly stand by my statement of 'blood on the hands' of the responsible.

 

[FrankMTL]

6361 new cases in the last 24 hours in Quebec. Also, hospitalizations went up by 48 for a total of 445 now.

 

[FrankMTL]

Squirrels are more focused on nuts though.

 

[Milhouse40]

6361 new cases in the last 24 hours in Quebec. Also, hospitalizations went up by 48 for a total of 445 now.

 

[Treb]

There are many professionals and studies that claim the effectiveness of various drugs and protocols and also many that claim ineffectiveness. Where the reality lies in the actual effectiveness of various protocols is certainly more of an open debate than any sort of concrete certainty. There are in fact many places in this world where drugs like ivermectin and others are still used as a treatment or a prophylactic for COVID.

If an effective protocol was banned without cause then there is absolutely a human cost associated with that. If an effective protocol was banned due to some form of corporate lobbying I would certainly stand by my statement of 'blood on the hands' of the responsible.

Many countries indeed have a widespread parasite problem that exacerbates Covid-19. Canada is not one of them though.

 

[Milhouse40]

There are many professionals and studies that claim the effectiveness of various drugs and protocols and also many that claim ineffectiveness. Where the reality lies in the actual effectiveness of various protocols is certainly more of an open debate than any sort of concrete certainty. There are in fact many places in this world where drugs like ivermectin and others are still used as a treatment or a prophylactic for COVID.

If an effective protocol was banned without cause then there is absolutely a human cost associated with that. If an effective protocol was banned due to some form of corporate lobbying I would certainly stand by my statement of 'blood on the hands' of the responsible.

Yes sure......but Ivermectin isn't banned, it's not proven to work. Plain and simple.
They tried, there was studies and it didn't work.

Those pushing this meds are the same who are against vaccine....and THEY have blood on their hands. Not maybe, could, and what if....those same people have blood on their hands right now and lots of it, it doesn't seem to bother you and you seems to be still listening to them.

 

[Licou]

There are many professionals and studies that claim the effectiveness of various drugs and protocols and also many that claim ineffectiveness. Where the reality lies in the actual effectiveness of various protocols is certainly more of an open debate than any sort of concrete certainty. There are in fact many places in this world where drugs like ivermectin and others are still used as a treatment or a prophylactic for COVID.

If an effective protocol was banned without cause then there is absolutely a human cost associated with that. If an effective protocol was banned due to some form of corporate lobbying I would certainly stand by my statement of 'blood on the hands' of the responsible.

What corporate lobbying? There is just no proof yet. Papers that concluded that there were significant benefits to Ivermectin were problematic.

This one Efficacy and Safety of Ivermectin for Treatment and prophylaxis of COVID-19 Pandemic , perhaps the most promising for the drug, was pulled as a preprint because there were traces of plagiarism in it and it was found by peer review that the data was unreliable!

I understand that there are still some ongoing large Ivermectin trials going on. Maybe they will change the balance.. who knows!

As others have mentioned, it's probably a useful drug that helps against covid in countries where parasitic infections are more prevalent.

But to assume that "corporate lobbies" would be against a cheap drug that could help curb the biggest crisis of the 21st century is shaky at best...

What about the whole hydroxychloroquine thing? Does the master of puppets have blood on its hands as well for that?

Truth and facts matter...

 

[solidaritypucks]

Many countries indeed have a widespread parasite problem that exacerbates Covid-19. Canada is not one of them though.

Many countries do indeed have widespread parasite problems, and certainly that would indicate an increased benefit of ivermectin in those regions relative to Canada. We are talking about the interaction between a drug, a virus and the human body... a complex system of which I'm sure you're aware of the complexity and depth of the involved interactions we are talking about here. For example why ivermectin is such an effective anti-parasitic drug and how other elements of the human system such as the microbiome of the gut interact with critical COVID areas such as the lungs.

I don't claim to have the divine truth on these matters but what is very clear to me is that instead of nuance and debate between scientists and health professionals we got a bizarre form of top-down censorship in way of 'It's a Dangerous Horse De-Wormer so we had to ban it' at a time when there were virtually no therapeutic treatments available.

 

[Treb]

Many countries do indeed have widespread parasite problems, and certainly that would indicate an increased benefit of ivermectin in those regions relative to Canada. We are talking about the interaction between a drug, a virus and the human body... a complex system of which I'm sure you're aware of the complexity and depth of the involved interactions we are talking about here. For example why ivermectin is such an effective anti-parasitic drug and how other elements of the human system such as the microbiome of the gut interact with critical COVID areas such as the lungs.

I don't claim to have the divine truth on these matters but what is very clear to me is that instead of nuance and debate between scientists and health professionals we got a bizarre form of top-down censorship in way of 'It's a Dangerous Horse De-Wormer so we had to ban it' at a time when there were virtually no therapeutic treatments available.

Newton's third law. If two bodies exert forces on each other, these forces are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction.

The push against ivermectin is proportional to the push for ivermectin.

 

[solidaritypucks]

What corporate lobbying? There is just no proof yet. Papers that concluded that there were significant benefits to Ivermectin were problematic.

This one Efficacy and Safety of Ivermectin for Treatment and prophylaxis of COVID-19 Pandemic , perhaps the most promising for the drug, was pulled as a preprint because there were traces of plagiarism in it and it was found by peer review that the data was unreliable!

I understand that there are still some ongoing large Ivermectin trials going on. Maybe they will change the balance.. who knows!

As others have mentioned, it's probably a useful drug that helps against covid in countries where parasitic infections are more prevalent.

But to assume that "corporate lobbies" would be against a cheap drug that could help curb the biggest crisis of the 21st century is shaky at best...

What about the whole hydroxychloroquine thing? Does the master of puppets have blood on its hands as well for that?

Truth and facts matter...

No doubt, but like most elements of this crisis, the sword of truth and justice cuts both ways. The Lancet itself was forced to publish a major retraction when one of their 'debunking' papers was determined to be based on completely fabricated data rather than Australian hospital system data.

The Lancet has made one of the biggest retractions in modern history. How could this happen?

Stuff like this from both sides is why I maintain that an open scientific debate and freedom of the scientific and medical community to seek out answers and pose questions is essential. If dogma or corporate objectives supersede science we all suffer.

 

[OnTheRun]

Many countries do indeed have widespread parasite problems, and certainly that would indicate an increased benefit of ivermectin in those regions relative to Canada. We are talking about the interaction between a drug, a virus and the human body... a complex system of which I'm sure you're aware of the complexity and depth of the involved interactions we are talking about here. For example why ivermectin is such an effective anti-parasitic drug and how other elements of the human system such as the microbiome of the gut interact with critical COVID areas such as the lungs.

I don't claim to have the divine truth on these matters but what is very clear to me is that instead of nuance and debate between scientists and health professionals we got a bizarre form of top-down censorship in way of 'It's a Dangerous Horse De-Wormer so we had to ban it' at a time when there were virtually no therapeutic treatments available.

It's not banned, it's just not an approved treatment for covid19.

Ivermectin had some interesting results in vitro... It become less interesting when the math tell you a lethal dose would need to be ingested to recreate the same results in vivo.

 

[solidaritypucks]

Newton's third law. If two bodies exert forces on each other, these forces are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction.

The push against ivermectin is proportional to the push for ivermectin.

I get it it's a wonderful line but let's be real here we are talking about a human system here, not mathematics. Human systems are not equivalently balanced.

 

[FrankMTL]

Just for comparisons sake, this would be the equivalent to the US reporting over 500,000 cases during a day.

 

[Licou]

No doubt, but like most elements of this crisis, the sword of truth and justice cuts both ways. The Lancet itself was forced to publish a major retraction when one of their 'debunking' papers was determined to be based on completely fabricated data rather than Australian hospital system data.

The Lancet has made one of the biggest retractions in modern history. How could this happen?

Stuff like this from both sides is why I maintain that an open scientific debate and freedom of the scientific and medical community to seek out answers and pose questions is essential. If dogma or corporate objectives supersede science we all suffer.

We can definitely agree on that!

And at the end of the day, retractions are a good thing! This is how science should work!

I will maintain that if ivermectin had been proven to be effective, no amount of hypothetical corporate lobbying would have stopped public health entities from including it in its covid standard treatment course. Hell, even in the US where this was (is) politicized to the extreme and where lobbyists have the most power in the free world, some doctors are still prescribing it and nobody is stopping them.