OT: Covid-19 (Part 19) How Fragile We Are...

[Lshap]

On and on...

Click to read more...

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I certainly share and understand the feeling, but like ozymandias intended to say it starts with us. We are at the root of the problem. Our daily consumption is too intense and too taxing for this planet. We are too many, and the problems are complex. What gives me hope is that I believe we can still be part of the solution. But we better wake up and fast.

I don't believe we are too many in terms of what this planet can support, in terms of resources and our own inventiveness.

Other systems are possible.

The present system is completely at odds with what humans need to live well (the entirety of humanity not just a select few) and completely at odds with ecological balance. Our present system also influences us to have values that are at odds with our very own survival.
But in terms of complexity to get there (a better system) and how many we are today, that's where it gets scary. There's a point where complexity will inevitably cause a system crash. When a system crashes is mainly predicated on how well the system does with further complexity. We're reaching this point where our very highly improvised and poorly conceived system is becoming too complex and problems will get out of hand.

 

[Lshap]

Agreed. We are no different. They had protests in BC and Ontario opposing isolation. They had some in Spain, France, Italy, USA, etc.
Humans aren't meant to isolate, it's unnatural, we are interactive creatures, hence the protests in so many countries across the globe.
What screwed Mtl is the CHSLD...that's all there is to it really. Staff got infected, they moved around, they spread it into communities. Before that we were on a good roll.

There is this ''oh we can't do that here'' attitude to Montrealers though. I was speaking to my buddy yesterday about it and I just couldn't comprehend his stance when we were discussing full serious lockdown and curfews. Just f***ing do it. Lock it all the f*** down, full curfew, and reinforce it. If that's what the experts say is the best way to control it, then just do it. Who gives two shits about what the population thinks, it's a freaking pandemic.
If we get invaded by a war mongering nation trying to conquer us, you shut up and follow the directives of the leaders. Don't do it, you face jail, if you don't die before.
This virus is no different really other than being invisible. It's unfortunate our leaders are just trying to be too pleasing and delicate. Now is not the time to play nice. They messed up, it's now almost 2 months and we can't start over because the economy won't survive.
They should have been way more authoritative from the beginning but what's done is done. Now what they seem to be screwing up with again is the lack of directives for businesses when they'll open up and extra public measures. They should have checkpoints with random testing, mandatory masks going to any enclosed business, temperature checks in every building, etc.

Good point -- I forgot about the protests in other cities across Canada, not to mention the angry Americans in all those southern states who wanted to open up over a month ago. Their locations are doing much better than us. Just imagine how much different the scenario would be if Quebec had figured out that maybe caregivers shouldn't be travelling between multiple residences and infecting everyone in so many CHSLDs. Imagine if they would've enforced a quarantine on everyone coming back from spring break. Putting them all up in a hotel for two weeks would've been a fraction of what they'll be paying for years. So many opportunities lost.

 

[Kriss E]

Good point -- I forgot about the protests in other cities across Canada, not to mention the angry Americans in all those southern states who wanted to open up over a month ago. Their locations are doing much better than us. Just imagine how much different the scenario would be if Quebec had figured out that maybe caregivers shouldn't be travelling between multiple residences and infecting everyone in so many CHSLDs. Imagine if they would've enforced a quarantine on everyone coming back from spring break. Putting them all up in a hotel for two weeks would've been a fraction of what they'll be paying for years. So many opportunities lost.

Ya, they really dropped the ball. They seem to have butter fingers and still are dropping it. They are flat out giving an even bigger incentive for region workers to come help in the CHSLDs here with more cash.
Come help here where the odds of catching it are significantly higher, some believe it's pretty much a certainty and just a matter of time, and then go back to your region and spread it around. Smart move.
Listening to my teacher friend, they've received no directives from the government or school boards for new measures. Her principal didn't even have any and asked teachers to send in their ideas as to what would help.
You want to leave businesses to fend for themselves, fine, but at least do things in public spaces they oversee. I still see cops hide behind pillars trying to catch that guy doing 130 on the highway..pointing their laser gun...f***ing cockroaches.
Make them do something useful, give them temperature guns, do checkpoints.

 

[MXD]

Good point -- I forgot about the protests in other cities across Canada, not to mention the angry Americans in all those southern states who wanted to open up over a month ago. Their locations are doing much better than us. Just imagine how much different the scenario would be if Quebec had figured out that maybe caregivers shouldn't be travelling between multiple residences and infecting everyone in so many CHSLDs. Imagine if they would've enforced a quarantine on everyone coming back from spring break. Putting them all up in a hotel for two weeks would've been a fraction of what they'll be paying for years. So many opportunities lost.

... They were about 22 in Ottawa.

 

[salbutera]

I’m very concerned for my parents well being - they’ve received 3-calls today already from West Island municipality advising not go anywhere, grocery pickup etc. can all be arranged for.

 

[MXD]

@scrubadam

Why do recoveries lag so much in Quebec?

Look at every other province and they are at what 60%, 70%, recoveries.

In Quebec we are at 25% or so.

The easy answer here is that 70% of the cases from other provinces were "declared" more than 3 weeks ago.

In other words, they reoriented (not sure flattened applies here) the curve faster.

Take, because it's a very easy example, Outaouais. 334 cases total. 209 recovered.

But we're also adding something like 7 cases a day.

 

[THE HOFF]

I don't believe we are too many in terms of what this planet can support, in terms of resources and our own inventiveness.

Other systems are possible.

The present system is completely at odds with what humans need to live well (the entirety of humanity not just a select few) and completely at odds with ecological balance. Our present system also influences us to have values that are at odds with our very own survival.
But in terms of complexity to get there and how many we are today, that's where it gets scary. There's a point where complexity will inevitably cause a system crash. When a system crashes is mainly predicated on how well the system does with further complexity. We're reaching this point where our very highly improvised and poorly conceived system is becoming too complex and problems will get out of hand.

Bang on. What I meant is that the world population as it stands right now -not even looking forward- is pushing us towards an even more unsustainable world if we don't change drastically our way of life. I completely agree that the complexity of it is scary. I was first in contact with some of those issues when I went to Nepal for a few months in 2011. It was not a spiritual quest in any way shape or form, but I had a lot of time to reflect on my life and on life in general. I bought a few books and one called Freefall from Joseph Stiglitz on the 2008 bubble and the reasons behind the crisis. It was fascinating, and combined with the environment I was living in at the time, a life changing experience.

In the current economic system, there are no pauses. Wealthy individuals and companies are still at the forefront of every political decision, and that's problem number one. Banks, for example, will preach for an open economy and for the freedom, for total capitalism in its raw, unregulated form. They will take risks that will make them more wealthy, unregulated by government oversight. Their goal ? Become too big to fail. Becoming so important to the economy that the system can't let them crash. So if we roll back the years a little, Bill Clinton deregulated the banks in the united states by abolishing certain obligations and rules that the banks had to follow. It was a shock to me to understand that there were some regulations in place to begin with. The United States had economic growth, always. It went on under Bill Clinton. The difference was, it was an artificial growth. It was not because money was coming in the country, it was debt-based. You could borrow more, banks could take more risks, loans exploded, personal and business loans. That stimulated the economy. When the time came for parts of this dysfunctional system to crash in 2008, the banks had achieved their goal ; They had become too big to fail.

Now is that capitalism ? Is it the raw capitalism preached by those very same banks ? No. They were reliant on the state to bail them out of bankruptcy. They crafted a system where they preach total raw capitalism, unregulated and merciless to their economical advantage, and when things go south, they are not paying any consequences of the system they contributed to invent. Its brilliant, because they could always turn to daddy. The failure of the 2008 bailout was the following : it should have came at a cost. To be bailed out, regulations should have been put back in place to regulate the system better, and that's Obama's greatest failure as a president. The missed opportunity to impact the system.

So you were right all along : ''There's a point where complexity will inevitably cause a system crash.''

And It has happened, just like it is happening now with the Covid, with climate change, with the next issue, and then the next. Those are all ''system crashes'' to various degrees. But its our inability to use those moments as real opportunities to craft ourselves a faster path to a better world that's so profoundly sad.

 

[ArtPeur]

Yes, we are Fragile

 

[Kriss E]

Bang on. What I meant is that the world population as it stands right now -not even looking forward- is pushing us towards an even more unsustainable world if we don't change drastically our way of life. I completely agree that the complexity of it is scary. I was first in contact with some of those issues when I went to Nepal for a few months in 2011. It was not a spiritual quest in any way shape or form, but I had a lot of time to reflect on my life and on life in general. I bought a few books and one called Freefall from Joseph Stiglitz on the 2008 bubble and the reasons behind the crisis. It was fascinating, and combined with the environment I was living in at the time, a life changing experience.

In the current economic system, there are no pauses. Wealthy individuals and companies are still at the forefront of every political decision, and that's problem number one. Banks, for example, will preach for an open economy and for the freedom, for total capitalism in its raw, unregulated form. They will take risks that will make them more wealthy, unregulated by government oversight. Their goal ? Become too big to fail. Becoming so important to the economy that the system can't let them crash. So if we roll back the years a little, Bill Clinton deregulated the banks in the united states by abolishing certain obligations and rules that the banks had to follow. It was a shock to me to understand that there were some regulations in place to begin with. The United States had economic growth, always. It went on under Bill Clinton. The difference was, it was an artificial growth. It was not because money was coming in the country, it was debt-based. You could borrow more, banks could take more risks, loans exploded, personal and business loans. That stimulated the economy. When the time came for parts of this dysfunctional system to crash in 2008, the banks had achieved their goal ; They had become too big to fail.

Now is that capitalism ? Is it the raw capitalism preached by those very same banks ? No. They were reliant on the state to bail them out of bankruptcy. They crafted a system where they preach total raw capitalism, unregulated and merciless to their economical advantage, and when things go south, they are not paying any consequences of the system they contributed to invent. Its brilliant, because they could always turn to daddy. The failure of the 2008 bailout was the following : it should have came at a cost. To be bailed out, regulations should have been put back in place to regulate the system better, and that's Obama's greatest failure as a president. The missed opportunity to impact the system.

So you were right all along : ''There's a point where complexity will inevitably cause a system crash.''

And It has happened, just like it is happening now with the Covid, with climate change, with the next issue, and then the next. Those are all ''system crashes'' to various degrees. But its our inability to use those moments as real opportunities to craft ourselves a faster path to a better world that's so profoundly sad.

Curiously, what would be the alternative?
Not denying there are flaws in this system, mostly, 10% of richest adults own 85% of the world's wealth, but there is no utopia.

 

[CrAzYNiNe]

GMA has 610 cases today. Both Germany and France have under 600 today... wth

 

[Crusher117]

GMA has 610 cases today. Both Germany and France have under 600 today... wth

Things are gonna get way worse before they get better. Montrealers aren't quarantining for shit. Even in a cold day like today everyone is out and about. People having people over all over the place. I'm seeing more and more Instagram stories of people hanging out with each other.

 

[A Loyal Dog]

Things are gonna get way worse before they get better. Montrealers aren't quarantining for shit. Even in a cold day like today everyone is out and about. People having people over all over the place. I'm seeing more and more Instagram stories of people hanging out with each other.

This. All of this. I'm very discouraged So many innocent people are/will be endangered for the pleasure of few.

 

[OnTheRun]

GMA has 610 cases today. Both Germany and France have under 600 today... wth

The best way to avoid a 2nd wave is to never get through the first one.

 

[Native]

I’m very concerned for my parents well being - they’ve received 3-calls today already from West Island municipality advising not go anywhere, grocery pickup etc. can all be arranged for.

hi salbutera, i'm curious which west island municipality your are referring to. you can pm if you want it keep it private. thanks, bro.

 

[Milhouse40]

GMA has 610 cases today. Both Germany and France have under 600 today... wth

Add Belgium, Netherland and Switzerland to the list.
Ça vas bien aller…..peut-être plus tard.

It's one thing to be a joke in Canada, but now we're starting to be one around the world.

 

[Andy]

Went to change my tires today. My mechanic had no mask or gloves.

Clients were coming by without gloves, leaving him their keys - he had no gloves.

WTF? I was really surprised.

Also, a buddy of mine lives in little italy. He sent me a photo today of the park at the corner of St.Laurent & Saint Zotique. There were a ton of people. 6 people sharing a picnic bench. Couldn't believe it.

 

[MilhouseIsScared]

Well my gf got the call she’s got the covid , so ditto for me , we are fine and now we barely got any symptoms( been 5 days since I had first fever etc , but I cannot taste/smell anything )

 

[Andy]

Well my gf got the call she’s got the covid , so ditto for me , we are fine and now we barely got any symptoms

sorry to hear. Hope you don't have a rough ride.

Wishing you the best.

 

[CrAzYNiNe]

Add Belgium, Netherland and Switzerland to the list.
Ça vas bien aller…..peut-être plus tard.

It's one thing to be a joke in Canada, but now we're starting to be one around the world.

Its more and more evident we f***ed up. Our stupid government is so afraid to show any kind of authority, even going as far to mention authoritarian fears... they absolutely dropped the ball. The virus has spread far and wide and they have no idea how to contain it. We just have to take this in our hands and protect ourself.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Well my gf got the call she’s got the covid , so ditto for me , we are fine and now we barely got any symptoms( been 5 days since I had first fever etc , but I cannot taste/smell anything )

Time to break out a new batch of chiiiiiiiliiii!

 

[HuGo Sham]

I don't believe we are too many in terms of what this planet can support, in terms of resources and our own inventiveness.

Other systems are possible.

The present system is completely at odds with what humans need to live well (the entirety of humanity not just a select few) and completely at odds with ecological balance. Our present system also influences us to have values that are at odds with our very own survival.
But in terms of complexity to get there (a better system) and how many we are today, that's where it gets scary. There's a point where complexity will inevitably cause a system crash. When a system crashes is mainly predicated on how well the system does with further complexity. We're reaching this point where our very highly improvised and poorly conceived system is becoming too complex and problems will get out of hand.

most people with informed opinions, believe it's already begun. The intensity of hurricanes, australia's wildfires, COVID-19, etc: Too much stress on natural resources, the least compassionate / visionary in charge + information and automation revolutions happening simultaneously (people unable to differentiate news from propaganda and unskilled labourers losing their jobs). The response for many during a time of fear is tribalism and ethnic nationalism. We've been here before as a species, but never in this many numbers, with a globe this small, using too many resources with no cohesive global (or economic) health plan. There is a chance something enlightened comes out of this.

scary article:
Experts Knew a Pandemic Was Coming. Here’s What They’re Worried About Next.

 

[HuGo Sham]

Bang on. What I meant is that the world population as it stands right now -not even looking forward- is pushing us towards an even more unsustainable world if we don't change drastically our way of life. I completely agree that the complexity of it is scary. I was first in contact with some of those issues when I went to Nepal for a few months in 2011. It was not a spiritual quest in any way shape or form, but I had a lot of time to reflect on my life and on life in general. I bought a few books and one called Freefall from Joseph Stiglitz on the 2008 bubble and the reasons behind the crisis. It was fascinating, and combined with the environment I was living in at the time, a life changing experience.

In the current economic system, there are no pauses. Wealthy individuals and companies are still at the forefront of every political decision, and that's problem number one. Banks, for example, will preach for an open economy and for the freedom, for total capitalism in its raw, unregulated form. They will take risks that will make them more wealthy, unregulated by government oversight. Their goal ? Become too big to fail. Becoming so important to the economy that the system can't let them crash. So if we roll back the years a little, Bill Clinton deregulated the banks in the united states by abolishing certain obligations and rules that the banks had to follow. It was a shock to me to understand that there were some regulations in place to begin with. The United States had economic growth, always. It went on under Bill Clinton. The difference was, it was an artificial growth. It was not because money was coming in the country, it was debt-based. You could borrow more, banks could take more risks, loans exploded, personal and business loans. That stimulated the economy. When the time came for parts of this dysfunctional system to crash in 2008, the banks had achieved their goal ; They had become too big to fail.

Now is that capitalism ? Is it the raw capitalism preached by those very same banks ? No. They were reliant on the state to bail them out of bankruptcy. They crafted a system where they preach total raw capitalism, unregulated and merciless to their economical advantage, and when things go south, they are not paying any consequences of the system they contributed to invent. Its brilliant, because they could always turn to daddy. The failure of the 2008 bailout was the following : it should have came at a cost. To be bailed out, regulations should have been put back in place to regulate the system better, and that's Obama's greatest failure as a president. The missed opportunity to impact the system.

So you were right all along : ''There's a point where complexity will inevitably cause a system crash.''

And It has happened, just like it is happening now with the Covid, with climate change, with the next issue, and then the next. Those are all ''system crashes'' to various degrees. But its our inability to use those moments as real opportunities to craft ourselves a faster path to a better world that's so profoundly sad.

this is an enlightening quick watch from venture capitalist, Nick Hanauer's Ted Talk
Transcript of "The dirty secret of capitalism -- and a new way forward"

 

[THE HOFF]

Curiously, what would be the alternative?
Not denying there are flaws in this system, mostly, 10% of richest adults own 85% of the world's wealth, but there is no utopia.

I started to reply but I am in the middle of something, I did not want to be in a hurry to respond, but I will later. have a good night. Enjoy the fights!

 

[THE HOFF]

this is an enlightening quick watch from venture capitalist, Nick Hanauer's Ted Talk
Transcript of "The dirty secret of capitalism -- and a new way forward"

Thanks!!