OT: COVID-19 Megathread IV (NO POLITICS)

FossilFndr

RIP Steve
Jan 18, 2014
3,204
1,407
Fall Branch, Tn.
A good friend of mine has heart issues and has become a regular at a Johnson City hospital ER. Without giving any personal information he sent me this last night describing yesterdays experience in the ER:

My highlighting

"The stories I could tell.........."

I don't want to bore you all with too many details, but suffice it to say that it was craziness there. A guy *wailing* (and I mean WAILING) in pain in a wheelchair. And I mean nearly constantly, with a few breaks (to catch his breath?). They didn't even get him into triage for 45 minutes. Every other person in there (like 40-50 most of the time) were concerned, but obviously could do nothing. Either the most, or second most pain I think I've ever seen anybody display. I suppose hell is worse than that, but if that's the case it's beyond imagining. And he was coughing every once in a while. Like about 10-12 others there. Most therein wore their masks properly, but about 7-8-10 did not - and they had that semi-stare like they were saying "yes, I'm a rebel; so what". Except one woman, in a wheelchair, with a DOG ON HER LAP, called out one of them close to her: "Get him away from me! I don't want him near me!" Etc. The wailing guy was about 20 feet away from me for about half of that first 45 minutes., but then his wife(?) moved him to WITHIN ABOUT 8 FEET OF ME. I was lucky to find the seat(s) I did - two unoccupied together - but had to sit almost directly under one of the TWO constantly-playing TVs. This one was non-stop HGTV, and over 4 hours I bet I heard the word "demo" 43 times. But I couldn't move without putting myself in even greater COVID danger. And it *mite* even have been worse had I been seated where I had to listen to *both* tvs at the same time. The other one seems to have a mixture of old cowboy movies and cartoons. So I stayed put and took it. For 4 hours. I normally have VERY strong capabilities to handle that kind of thing in a zen-like state, but this pushed me to the limit. And of course...........for local color, there were the arriving ambulances, the arriving prisoner in cuffs, the yay-hoo across from me, talking loudly on his fone a lot, without his mask, of course. (One of about 4-5.) There were not beds out in the waiting room (don't think they'd do that), but they had chairs lined up down the long hallway past the waiting room - about 1/3 of the way down that hall. They were repeatedly running out of wheelchairs and were having to go elsewhere to retrieve some. You can imagine how the patients' patience was frayed. I'm leaving such details as the woman who came in panicky-screaming that her husband was outside "bleeding profusely!", and when someone went out to help him in, he refused treatment, and they left. No kidding.

Those are the hi-lites, leaving out the 'minor' stuff (LOL). I'm quite sure I was exposed, and likely heavily exposed, as there were 118 NEW cases of COVID in Washington County just today. I can imagine a goodly percentage of them were sharing that room with me. It was like a journey to the underbelly of JC 'civilization'.

I've always admired the folks who do that kind of work, but I couldn't have taken a full shift of that. And those people do it day after day after day. Truly amazing.

I left after those 4 hrs, after going up to the reception desk and asking if a) they could give me an approx. time for being fully treated (they said it would still likely be a long time); and b) if there was any chance I could be quickly re-evaluated and possibly be let go, since my crisis has long passed. And after about 20 more minutes, the second thing did mercifully happen. I was truly close to leaving anyway, which may have resulted in me owing a few thousand $$ for leaving "against medical advice" - thus insurance not paying. Too big a gamble there, so fortunately my strategy worked, but I didn't get as much 'advice' as I would otherwise have, likely. I went outside and sat on a bench for about 45 minutes, just decompressing. I felt traumatized. And still do, actually. I know that's nothing compared to what some/many people have suffered/endured, but it *really* took an emotional toll on me.

That place, in the current situation, is NO PLACE for anybody to be who isn't in truly dire need.

... Wow, this guy is not one to exaggerate so ....
 

Armourboy

Hey! You suck!
Jan 20, 2014
19,377
10,741
Shelbyville, TN
It's rough and pretty much being played out all across the country. My cousin is nurse in NW Arkansas and it's a mess because so many refuse to take the vaccine. They are being forced to send people out of state for access to beds.

My wife's boss thankfully has mostly recovered and is back home after having 3 or 4 days where we really didn't know if he was going to make it. He got down to 74% breathing at one point.

The one bright spot in all of this is it seems some people are finally starting to take heed as the number of people getting the vaccine is at its highest point since it first started. Think the number I heard was 7 million people, although I can't remember the time frame.
 

PredsV82

Trade Saros
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Aug 13, 2007
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Several Canadian hockey arenas have already announced need for Vaccine proof or negative test documentation to attend. Several US football venues have done so as well. Wonder if any US hockey venues will follow suit?
 

AtlantaWhaler

Thrash/Preds/Sabres
Jul 3, 2009
19,728
2,945
It would be a shame to shut down the thread instead of just the offending party. That being said this has gotten a bit personal attack like.

How about just punishing the offender instead? Someone may use this rule as a tactic to shut the conversation down because that serves their purposes.

Aside from being a main rule (and has been for over a decade now) on this board, yes, political talk almost always leads to personal attacks. There are endless outlets to turn to if anyone feels the need to debate politics. This is not one of them.

As noted in one of the other warnings, this is one of the last standing COVID threads on the board because politics is very difficult to avoid on the topic (which is stupid, but that's the world we live in, I guess). They have been deleted all over the place. I will use discretion if it's obvious that an "outsider" just wants to shut down the thread, but...

IF SOMEONE DOES, IGNORE THEM AND REPORT THEM. THEN MOVE ON. OTHERWISE, IF THERE IS A BACK-AND-FORTH WITH THAT POSTER, THIS THREAD IS DOA.
 

AtlantaWhaler

Thrash/Preds/Sabres
Jul 3, 2009
19,728
2,945
Wellstar is a big Atlanta-based hospital system. The figures speak for themselves. Sorry for the HUGE pic...

daily-covid-updates.png
 

LCPreds

Registered User
Dec 8, 2013
7,559
4,357
TN
Wellstar is a big Atlanta-based hospital system. The figures speak for themselves. Sorry for the HUGE pic...

HUGE pic. HUGE message. I'm not sure how one could read this and come away with anything other than vaccinations are doing their job.

One thing I do wonder is what is it about the 12% vaxxed patients that allows the breakthrough to actually impact them strongly enough to end up in the ICU. It's really interesting because the chances of ending up in the hospital are obviously not as high if vaxxed. It also doesn't appear to be as likely to end up in the ICU if vaxxed. But once they end up in the ICU the advantage doesn't seem to carry much further in terms of whether a ventilator is needed or not. It's a very small sample size of course but all it takes is for one of the vaxxed to move to the ventilator category for the % to be basically even.

My math just in case I'm hosing this up:
12% of hospitalized vaxxed end up in ICU (7 out of 58)
23% of hospitalized unvaxxed end up in ICU (133 out of 580)

57% of vaxxed in ICU end up on a ventilator (4/7)
73% of unvaxxed in ICU end up on a ventilator (97/133)

If 1 additional vaxxed person requires a ventilator:
71% of vaxxed in ICU end up on ventilator (5/7)

Have we gotten any closer to understanding why some vaxxed folks still end up needing ICU care?
 

Armourboy

Hey! You suck!
Jan 20, 2014
19,377
10,741
Shelbyville, TN
HUGE pic. HUGE message. I'm not sure how one could read this and come away with anything other than vaccinations are doing their job.

One thing I do wonder is what is it about the 12% vaxxed patients that allows the breakthrough to actually impact them strongly enough to end up in the ICU. It's really interesting because the chances of ending up in the hospital are obviously not as high if vaxxed. It also doesn't appear to be as likely to end up in the ICU if vaxxed. But once they end up in the ICU the advantage doesn't seem to carry much further in terms of whether a ventilator is needed or not. It's a very small sample size of course but all it takes is for one of the vaxxed to move to the ventilator category for the % to be basically even.

My math just in case I'm hosing this up:
12% of hospitalized vaxxed end up in ICU (7 out of 58)
23% of hospitalized unvaxxed end up in ICU (133 out of 580)

57% of vaxxed in ICU end up on a ventilator (4/7)
73% of unvaxxed in ICU end up on a ventilator (97/133)

If 1 additional vaxxed person requires a ventilator:
71% of vaxxed in ICU end up on ventilator (5/7)

Have we gotten any closer to understanding why some vaxxed folks still end up needing ICU care?
Probably need more background. Age, medical history, smoker, etc. to really get a better idea. I'd be willing to bet most would be classified as high risk in some way.

Although it would be interesting to see if there may be a flaw in some way where with certain people the vaccine didn't actually do anything. They got it but the body didn't actually do anything with it.
 
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TheOriginalJez

Registered User
Oct 24, 2014
668
131
A box under a bridge
Probably need more background. Age, medical history, smoker, etc. to really get a better idea. I'd be willing to bet most would be classified as high risk in some way.
Although it would be interesting to see if there may be a flaw in some way where with certain people the vaccine didn't actually do anything. They got it but the body didn't actually do anything with it.

I HIGHLY recommend this article for you - COVID-19 Vaccines and Immunocompromised People: Fully Vaccinated and Not Protected | Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. The way these vaccines work the 'flaw' you suggest does happen, sort of. But it is in the immune response, rather than the vaccine itself. Understanding the flaws in those responses is really important, since it can help us better protect and treat immunocompromised patients from not just covid but potentially all kinds of diseases that most people don't have to worry about.

That 90%+ is huge though, it's consistent across the world where the vaccines are available, and it's really important to get that message across. Here (in the UK) we're now getting to the point where people who were jabbed late last year or early this year are starting to see a drop in their immunity. That's not a flaw in the vaccine, it's just how immunity works: if your body doesn't have to defend against it for a while it slowly forgets it. I can see that fall off in efficacy being a rallying call for the anti-vaxxers, but what it needs to be is a call for people to get booster shots!
 
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hockey diva

RIP Pred303
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May 17, 2010
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I was able to get several of my patients Monday and Tuesday to get their first shots. Hallelujah! I am so ridiculously happy when they get them at this point, it’s almost comical. I even gave out a couple lollipops. Several of our hesitant staff finally got theirs.

I have one patient who got it for the second time and said it was worse.

We are now hoping to get more info on the antibody treatment and how to get patients scheduled for it.
 

hockey diva

RIP Pred303
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May 17, 2010
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Beleriand
Chiming in what Jez posted. There are folks who are non responders to vaccines. I have seen it with the Hep B vaccine. Anyone going into a healthcare setting has to show proof of Hep B immunity. I have had patients who got 2 rounds of the Hep B series and still had no immunity.

Bdub24, my second shingles shot gave me horrible body aches.
 

LCPreds

Registered User
Dec 8, 2013
7,559
4,357
TN
Well I was just reminded of the value of continual learning as opposed to going by what you hear. I was thinking that since I had chickenpox I would not need the Shingles vaccine. Of course after educating myself a few minutes ago I learned that having chickenpox is precisely why I need the Shingles vax. Still have a few years to 50 but at least I have this to look forward to when reaching that milestone.
 
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PredsV82

Trade Saros
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Aug 13, 2007
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Well I was just reminded of the value of continual learning as opposed to going by what you hear. I was thinking that since I had chickenpox I would not need the Shingles vaccine. Of course after educating myself a few minutes ago I learned that having chickenpox is precisely why I need the Shingles vax. Still have a few years to 50 but at least I have this to look forward to when reaching that milestone.

And your screening colonoscopy. Although diva can probably correct me but they may have lowered the age for that to 45...
 

Flgatorguy87

Registered User
Jul 7, 2011
5,787
3,726
East Nasty
Chiming in what Jez posted. There are folks who are non responders to vaccines. I have seen it with the Hep B vaccine. Anyone going into a healthcare setting has to show proof of Hep B immunity. I have had patients who got 2 rounds of the Hep B series and still had no immunity.

Bdub24, my second shingles shot gave me horrible body aches.

Bingo. As much as people want to think these science things are black and white (developing immunity, natural immunity, genetic predisposition to the virus, etc.) we don't know enough yet. It's ok to not have every answer and still feel confident in what we do know. The vaccine is keeping people from dying as often. Simple, yet important to remember. The thought that medical doesn't know anything because they don't know everything is getting dangerous.


I had to get multiple Hep B series. I think 5 before my titers came back at a useful level.
 

Adz

Eudora Wannabe
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Jun 18, 2005
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Well I was just reminded of the value of continual learning as opposed to going by what you hear. I was thinking that since I had chickenpox I would not need the Shingles vaccine. Of course after educating myself a few minutes ago I learned that having chickenpox is precisely why I need the Shingles vax. Still have a few years to 50 but at least I have this to look forward to when reaching that milestone.
I had chicken pox as a child then had two cases of shingles as an adult, both mild. One was prior to the vax' release and age 50 because I remember the doc telling me that when it was released I could get it regardless of age. I'd been to a Preds game. It was warmish so I'd worn my jersey without a shirt underneath and thought the rash I had was from that. Nope. Pretty sure that was the second time and was why doc said I'd qualify for it. But really, up til the pandemic hit I was reluctant to get vaxxed for stuff. I wasn't against them, just didn't wanna. I never had a flu shot til last year. I plan to get a booster, a flu shot, and now, thinking about it, a shingles shot. My left arm is going to be useless.

When there was a measles outbreak a few years ago, I had bloodwork done for general immunity and it did show I still had immunity to the childhood diseases. I think I had to have boosters for them when I started teaching again in the mid 90's.
 
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