Could the M Cup move

[SSMHoundsFan]

A back door team is more likely than a actual team going through all the rounds.
Money a huge part in it or more teams might bid. They just simply can afford the ridiculous bids that the other teams have set the bar at. I get its a business but money drives the whole tournament now.

Didn't Windsor backdoor win their most recent MC?

 

[windsor7]

Didn't Windsor backdoor win their most recent MC?

Yes they did.
Happens a lot

 

[OMG67]

Money should drive the Memorial Cup Tournament. The league needs exposure. The sponsors are a big part of that exposure. They require the biggest possible showcase.

The Leagues have all grown. Franchise values have grown, even the tiny markets have grown in franchise value.

Growing the sport and making it more about increased revenue isn’t a bad thing. That increase helps provide the scholarship programs, pays for more safety initiatives, and better overall fan experiences. The players have benefitted greatly over the last four or so decades I’ve been following the league.

It comes down to what is more fair. Is it more fair to the fans in small markets to be able to host a rinky-dink tournament or is it more fair that the players and league benefit from their hard work by placing the tournament in locations that help contribute to the success and viability of the league?

 

[SSMHoundsFan]

It comes down to what is more fair. Is it more fair to the fans in small markets to be able to host a rinky-dink tournament or is it more fair that the players and league benefit from their hard work by placing the tournament in locations that help contribute to the success and viability of the league?

I'd say the former of the options only because then you'd have teams like London and Kitchener hosting the cup all the time which isn't fair

 

[RangerNation]

I'd say the former of the options only because then you'd have teams like London and Kitchener hosting the cup all the time which isn't fair

Kitchener has gone on record in the past that they wouldn't bid on the tourney to give other teams a chance. It does however look like they will be bidding for 2027.

 

[OMG67]

I'd say the former of the options only because then you'd have teams like London and Kitchener hosting the cup all the time which isn't fair

You’d then be prioritizing fans over the League, Teams, Sponsors and players. That is fine but not rational IMO.

Another example of what is fair would be the loyalty discussion. Is the individual team responsibility to be loyal to the players on the team individually? What I mean is, should a team choose to not trade a certain player out of loyalty to the player? OR, should the team be loyal to the rest of the team by making moves that improves the team regardless of the individual? IMO, the management owes it to the collective team to do what they can to be as competitive as possible when it is time to chase a Championship. If that means trading a local 5 year OA to upgrade that position then so be it. That is showing loyalty to the team collectively.

I view it the same way with respect to the MEmorial Cup host cities. If it were “fair” they would rotate the Cup hosting duties evenly throughout all member teams. It would be fair but it would be balanced off with the downside being the League and players would have to make sacrifices because of the lack of revenue that supports the League operations.

What is fair isn’t always what is REALLY fair. Sometimes you need to go a little deeper.

The current process makes it possible for many of the teams to host the Championship. It is incumbent on the individual bidding teams to show they have a competitive team or the means to be competitive. They have to have the infrastructure and support of the community. They need the support from the fanbase with pre-sales of tickets. I believe this is FAIR. Just because a handful of teams in the league don’t have these in place, it doesn’t mean the process isn’t fair.

Don’t be bitter. Get better….

 

[dirty12]

Saginaw will be fine. So far it is shaping up to be a buyers market. A lot of teams at or near the top of the league are teams looking to recoup assets spent last season. Some of those teams will throw in the towel on the rebuild and just roll with it but they will remain status quo because many of them don’t have enough to really make an honest push.

I don’t see it. I see a surplus of OA forwards, but a shortage of rental D. Who are the WJC forwards that will be available; O.Beck, Rehkopf (if Kitchener fears he will graduate), and…?

Saginaw, Flint, OS, NB, (Mississauga and/or Kingston) will be wanting D. Guelph and Sudbury may want a pure rental first pairing D.
London could make George available …they’re not a seller but NB should be?
Again, I don’t see it. Sudbury is not getting a free pass.

There will be two or three players out there where the market won’t dictate their value and they will garner the typical elite player return. The rest won’t. When we saw guys like Harrison, Zhilkin, and Arcuri go for two 2nds and three 3rds+ last season, we won’t see similar deals this year. The market isn’t responsive enough.

We saw that with Lockhart. Not only was the return for Lockhart weak, look at the team he went to. A non-contender. Not even teams considered contenders made a move on him serious enough. He should have gone for picks but at least one 2nd should have been included in that deal under normal circumstances.

How does this affect Saginaw? They likely will be able to round out that roster for a relatively cheap total cost. Maybe they don’t get Beck or Nelson or Brzustewicz. But, they should get a bunch of really solid OHL veterans that will compliment what is already a decent roster on paper. With so little competition for players right now, I cannot see the league flipping on its head and doing a complete U-Turn and ending up in a sellers market. This will benefit a team like Saginaw.

Also remember that Saginaw doesn’t need to make it to the Finals. They need home ice in round one and a favourable matchup in round two. If they bow out in the Conference Finals, they get a suitable amount of rest before the Memorial Cup. They will represent the OHL just fine.



The Host team would need to pretty much be a basement dweller to get booted out of the tourney. The location would remain the same so Saginaw would still host.

So many times the Host team lost in Round 2 and sat for a month. Ottawa won it in 1999 after losing round 2 to Belleville (the eventual League Champs). There is no reason to believe that in a short tournament the host team being Saginaw would embarrass the league. I can’t see it.

 

[OMG67]

I don’t see it. I see a surplus of OA forwards, but a shortage of rental D. Who are the WJC forwards that will be available; O.Beck, Rehkopf (if Kitchener fears he will graduate), and…?

Saginaw, Flint, OS, NB, (Mississauga and/or Kingston) will be wanting D. Guelph and Sudbury may want a pure rental first pairing D.
London could make George available …they’re not a seller but NB should be?
Again, I don’t see it. Sudbury is not getting a free pass.

A team like Saginaw doesn’t necessarily need elite players. They already have a few. The issue is they aren’t playing up to their status. I am making the assumption they will play up to their status. A player like Misa should not continue to be stuck in a point per game rut. Sapovaliv is another that should be producing at a higher level.

At the end of the day, I believe they are fine down the middle. They are likely ok in net but yet to be fully determined with Oake. I think they have the makings of a strong defence but could likely add one more elite piece or two good pieces. The hard one they have and that is their scoring D-Man so that at least isn’t the tough one Which is why if they feel they need more depth than elite performance, they can add some middle roster D-Men.

They probably could use some scoring on the wings but those pieces can be had with draft picks. Even in a sellers market last year, there were no issues with teams acquiring scoring depth with draft picks.

Again, I don’t see Saginaw needing to add elite type players. They already have a lot of good pieces. To me, they need decent quality supplementary scoring and probably one or two larger D-Men that can help move the puck out of the zone and clear the net front. I really don’t see those pieces costing a lot unless they decide to buy at the top of the market.

Usually, teams that buy at the top of the market are looking for that one last piece, maybe two. I see Saginaw needing probably 3-5 pieces and none of them “need” to be top of market guys. This changes the dynamic for them.

Again, they also don’t need to load up for a championship. They only need to load up to make a run in the Memorial Cup. I;m not saying they shouldn’t make a run at a Championship but loading up for that is far different than loading up for a 4-5 game tournament.

With respect to the other teams, I’m not too sure many of them will have the appetite to make a splash. I think they will read the market and if they can find the right deal, they will make it but none of them are likely to make a push at all costs in any way similar to what some teams did last year. If a team can add a middling D-Man for depth and help fill a gap and they can do it cheaply, they will do it. IF it costs them two 2nds and two 3rds for a kid like Smith, I don’t think they will make that trade. Only teams committed to making a push will consider those deals. How many teams are committed? Right now, I am not sure any team other than Saginaw is truly committed. If the market is priced right, I think a couple more teams will jump in like Guelph did on deadline day in 2019 and maybe make out like bandits.

 

[SSMHoundsFan]

You’d then be prioritizing fans over the League, Teams, Sponsors and players. That is fine but not rational IMO.

Another example of what is fair would be the loyalty discussion. Is the individual team responsibility to be loyal to the players on the team individually? What I mean is, should a team choose to not trade a certain player out of loyalty to the player? OR, should the team be loyal to the rest of the team by making moves that improves the team regardless of the individual? IMO, the management owes it to the collective team to do what they can to be as competitive as possible when it is time to chase a Championship. If that means trading a local 5 year OA to upgrade that position then so be it. That is showing loyalty to the team collectively.

I view it the same way with respect to the MEmorial Cup host cities. If it were “fair” they would rotate the Cup hosting duties evenly throughout all member teams. It would be fair but it would be balanced off with the downside being the League and players would have to make sacrifices because of the lack of revenue that supports the League operations.

What is fair isn’t always what is REALLY fair. Sometimes you need to go a little deeper.

The current process makes it possible for many of the teams to host the Championship. It is incumbent on the individual bidding teams to show they have a competitive team or the means to be competitive. They have to have the infrastructure and support of the community. They need the support from the fanbase with pre-sales of tickets. I believe this is FAIR. Just because a handful of teams in the league don’t have these in place, it doesn’t mean the process isn’t fair.

Don’t be bitter. Get better….

You can coat it however you want but if London hosted the MC every time it was the OHLs turn you'd see an uproar in fans everywhere regardless of how financially beneficial it'd be for the league

 

[OMG67]

You can coat it however you want but if London hosted the MC every time it was the OHLs turn you'd see an uproar in fans everywhere regardless of how financially beneficial it'd be for the league

But they don’t so I don’t see why that is even a talking point. I believe London has hosted twice since 1993. I don’t think any other OHL teams have hosted twice in that same timeframe. And to be fair, London was and still is to a lessor degree, a very strong and competitive franchise. That gives them opportunity. London has not been given hosting duties because they have the biggest building. They first have to be competitive And they need to be competitive on the right cycle in line with OHL hosting duties.

I believe the way they select the Host City in the OHL is fair when you also factor in the responsibility the league has to maintaining a viable financial landscape that keeps them competitive when it comes to recruitment and caring services.

I also believe the LEague has done a great job at assisting franchises in building an infrastructure that would allow many of the teams an opportunity to host. I can only think of about 5 teams that would arguably be excluded under most any circumstance.

 

[SSMHoundsFan]

But they don’t so I don’t see why that is even a talking point. I believe London has hosted twice since 1993. I don’t think any other OHL teams have hosted twice in that same timeframe. And to be fair, London was and still is to a lessor degree, a very strong and competitive franchise. That gives them opportunity. London has not been given hosting duties because they have the biggest building. They first have to be competitive And they need to be competitive on the right cycle in line with OHL hosting duties.

I believe the way they select the Host City in the OHL is fair when you also factor in the responsibility the league has to maintaining a viable financial landscape that keeps them competitive when it comes to recruitment and caring services.

I also believe the LEague has done a great job at assisting franchises in building an infrastructure that would allow many of the teams an opportunity to host. I can only think of about 5 teams that would arguably be excluded under most any circumstance.

I am only responding to YOU making it a talking point by alluding to how putting the MC in a smaller market is detrimental to the league:

"It comes down to what is more fair. Is it more fair to the fans in small markets to be able to host a rinky-dink tournament or is it more fair that the players and league benefit from their hard work by placing the tournament in locations that help contribute to the success and viability of the league?"

I agree with your other points, simply responding to where my comments arose from

 

[DWI Dale]

saggy is the host but they're more than likely going in the back door and might not make it far in the playoffs if they don't get it together fast.

but they have a boatload of picks to make improvements and an exceptional young player they can move in the future if they need to rebuild. they'll be fine.

 

[dirty12]

A team like Saginaw doesn’t necessarily need elite players. They already have a few. The issue is they aren’t playing up to their status. I am making the assumption they will play up to their status. A player like Misa should not continue to be stuck in a point per game rut. Sapovaliv is another that should be producing at a higher level.

At the end of the day, I believe they are fine down the middle. They are likely ok in net but yet to be fully determined with Oake. I think they have the makings of a strong defence but could likely add one more elite piece or two good pieces. The hard one they have and that is their scoring D-Man so that at least isn’t the tough one Which is why if they feel they need more depth than elite performance, they can add some middle roster D-Men.

They probably could use some scoring on the wings but those pieces can be had with draft picks. Even in a sellers market last year, there were no issues with teams acquiring scoring depth with draft picks.

Again, I don’t see Saginaw needing to add elite type players. They already have a lot of good pieces. To me, they need decent quality supplementary scoring and probably one or two larger D-Men that can help move the puck out of the zone and clear the net front. I really don’t see those pieces costing a lot unless they decide to buy at the top of the market.

Usually, teams that buy at the top of the market are looking for that one last piece, maybe two. I see Saginaw needing probably 3-5 pieces and none of them “need” to be top of market guys. This changes the dynamic for them.

Again, they also don’t need to load up for a championship. They only need to load up to make a run in the Memorial Cup. I;m not saying they shouldn’t make a run at a Championship but loading up for that is far different than loading up for a 4-5 game tournament.

I agree with this. Saginaw can get the best OA for their team, and a couple others to help close out games. No need to panic.
Friendly $ on Punnett to Saginaw.

With respect to the other teams, I’m not too sure many of them will have the appetite to make a splash. I think they will read the market and if they can find the right deal, they will make it but none of them are likely to make a push at all costs in any way similar to what some teams did last year. If a team can add a middling D-Man for depth and help fill a gap and they can do it cheaply, they will do it. IF it costs them two 2nds and two 3rds for a kid like Smith, I don’t think they will make that trade. Only teams committed to making a push will consider those deals. How many teams are committed? Right now, I am not sure any team other than Saginaw is truly committed. If the market is priced right, I think a couple more teams will jump in like Guelph did on deadline day in 2019 and maybe make out like bandits.

There are plenty of teams with the means to buy that will fill any void left by pre-season favourites opting not to buy-in imo.
Miss can buy. The can get any two OAs, or use picks and Ivankovic to get Mayer and any other player they covet.
Flint can buy. I expect Flint to try to add significantly if any of the conference favourites don’t.
There may never be an easier path to a #2 seed in the east division.
North Bay is pretty much locked into buying responsibly

 

[DWI Dale]

I am only responding to YOU making it a talking point by alluding to how putting the MC in a smaller market is detrimental to the league:

"It comes down to what is more fair. Is it more fair to the fans in small markets to be able to host a rinky-dink tournament or is it more fair that the players and league benefit from their hard work by placing the tournament in locations that help contribute to the success and viability of the league?"

I agree with your other points, simply responding to where my comments arose from

i'd be curious what defines a "rinky dink" market. this is the OHL, not the NHL lol. and a market can be huge and still have poor game attendance. just look at Mississauga!

 

[OMG67]

I am only responding to YOU making it a talking point by alluding to how putting the MC in a smaller market is detrimental to the league:

"It comes down to what is more fair. Is it more fair to the fans in small markets to be able to host a rinky-dink tournament or is it more fair that the players and league benefit from their hard work by placing the tournament in locations that help contribute to the success and viability of the league?"

I agree with your other points, simply responding to where my comments arose from

Understood. And to be more clear and precise on my end, there are likely 12-15 locations in Ontario that would be suitable on any given year depending on the level of projected team quality in the competition. For example, if London is projected as the top team the year of the Memorial Cup in Ontario, they will get it almost for sure. However, if London is in the running but SSM is clearly the top team that year then it would likely go to SSM. If it were Peterborough that were the top team but a team like Windsor were also neck and neck from a competitive standpoint, it would be very difficult for Peterborough to get the nod.

The teams I see least capable or unlikely based on the community they are in are:
Peterborough
Brantford
North Bay
Owen Sound

The teams that are borderline and would need some luck in the competitive cycle are:
Ottawa (until they get a new rink)
Sudbury (questionable Amenities and tough location)
Barrie (small rink)
Erie (questionable Amenities and tough location)
Mississauga (lack of fan support)

The borderline teams could all potentially be awarded a Hosting duty but they’d really have to project being very strong and throw a ton of community support behind the bid. They’d likely have to be head and shoulders ahead of any strong city candidate on the ice.

 

[OMG67]

i'd be curious what defines a "rinky dink" market. this is the OHL, not the NHL lol. and a market can be huge and still have poor game attendance. just look at Mississauga!

The quote was originally mine. I said “rinky-dink” tournament. What I meant by that is if we were to go back to the old format of a Super-Series in round one where the #1 team in the East Plays the #1 team in the West for the hosting duties (like Oshawa and North Bay in 1987), we likely end up with a tournament that looks and feels like it was put together over a 4 week period because that is what it would be. And if a small market team with a small rink were to be awarded the tournament, there would likely be issues housing teams and the league because hotel space wouldn’t be reserved until 6 weeks prior. No community support or build up.

Organizing an event like the Memorial Cup requires time and effort now. If we went backwards, the tournament would be a “rinky-dink” tournament. Potentially a bigger market could pull it off last minute but even then it would be a bit of a gong show.

 

[EvenSteven]

Kitchener has gone on record in the past that they wouldn't bid on the tourney to give other teams a chance. It does however look like they will be bidding for 2027.

That was a Steve Bienkowski stance. He’s gone. Hence the interest in bidding for 2027.

 

[RangerNation]

That was a Steve Bienkowski stance. He’s gone. Hence the interest in bidding for 2027.

I don't doubt he may have bid for it too, but the thought of retiring in 4 years earlier probably sounded nicer.

 

[EvenSteven]

I don't doubt he may have bid for it too, but the thought of retiring in 4 years earlier probably sounded nicer.

He may have today, but when he was approached by the league to bid, in 2014 or 2017 I think, he said, as was said, we just hosted a few years ago, let someone else host.

And that was the right attitude.

 

[RangerNation]

He may have today, but when he was approached by the league to bid, in 2014 or 2017 I think, he said, as was said, we just hosted a few years ago, let someone else host.

And that was the right attitude.

I agree. It was a league first mentality which was needed.

 

[OMG67]

I agree. It was a league first mentality which was needed.

I’m not 100% sure that is the ONLY reason. I think there is a tremendous amount of additional effort from the staff that goes into hosting an event like that. It puts a lot of strain on their resources. I think teams like the opportunity to do it but the level of effort required makes it less manageable if it comes around again quickly. The law of diminishing returns comes into play there. Fun once. But when it happens a second time, it really becomes work….

 

[Ward Cornell]

Understood. And to be more clear and precise on my end, there are likely 12-15 locations in Ontario that would be suitable on any given year depending on the level of projected team quality in the competition. For example, if London is projected as the top team the year of the Memorial Cup in Ontario, they will get it almost for sure. However, if London is in the running but SSM is clearly the top team that year then it would likely go to SSM. If it were Peterborough that were the top team but a team like Windsor were also neck and neck from a competitive standpoint, it would be very difficult for Peterborough to get the nod.

The teams I see least capable or unlikely based on the community they are in are:
Peterborough
Brantford
North Bay
Owen Sound

The teams that are borderline and would need some luck in the competitive cycle are:
Ottawa (until they get a new rink)
Sudbury (questionable Amenities and tough location)
Barrie (small rink)
Erie (questionable Amenities and tough location)
Mississauga (lack of fan support)

The borderline teams could all potentially be awarded a Hosting duty but they’d really have to project being very strong and throw a ton of community support behind the bid. They’d likely have to be head and shoulders ahead of any strong city candidate on the ice.

My 2 cents here.
Those teams noted above that would have basically no chance in hosting the Memorial Cup could be rectified quite easily. They can be the host team but a separate host city. Brantford could be the host team but the games could be played in Hamilton, London or Kitchener. Owen Sound could host team with games in Guelph(?) Or Kitchener. North Bay would be difficult to find a close host city.
This would open up being the host team to a vast majority of teams that wouldn't stand a chance of hosting.
The other change I would make Is to the format structure in league playoffs. When it comes done to the remaining four teams, I would toss out the conference playoff and go by overall standings. This could create some great finals... Oshawa vs Pete's, kitchener vs Guelph and London vs Windsor could be some possibilities. This would also help to possibly send the OHLs top team to the Memorial Cup and not just a team that rode a small hot streak.

 

[OMG67]

My 2 cents here.
Those teams noted above that would have basically no chance in hosting the Memorial Cup could be rectified quite easily. They can be the host team but a separate host city. Brantford could be the host team but the games could be played in Hamilton, London or Kitchener. Owen Sound could host team with games in Guelph(?) Or Kitchener. North Bay would be difficult to find a close host city.
This would open up being the host team to a vast majority of teams that wouldn't stand a chance of hosting.
The other change I would make Is to the format structure in league playoffs. When it comes done to the remaining four teams, I would toss out the conference playoff and go by overall standings. This could create some great finals... Oshawa vs Pete's, kitchener vs Guelph and London vs Windsor could be some possibilities. This would also help to possibly send the OHLs top team to the Memorial Cup and not just a team that rode a small hot streak.

Good points. I know there has been a lot of discussion regarding eliminating the Conference playoffs but I think the Final Four shouldn‘t present an issue.

The Memorial Cup concept isn’t foreign. I do think you are correct that it needs to be somewhat in the same neighbourhood. A one hour drive from the host team shouldn’t be an issue for Home team fans. More than that and you start running into the issue of ticket sales challenges. The reality is, having a host city helps satisfy ticket sales Requirements.

 

[Purple Phart]

Understood. And to be more clear and precise on my end, there are likely 12-15 locations in Ontario that would be suitable on any given year depending on the level of projected team quality in the competition. For example, if London is projected as the top team the year of the Memorial Cup in Ontario, they will get it almost for sure. However, if London is in the running but SSM is clearly the top team that year then it would likely go to SSM. If it were Peterborough that were the top team but a team like Windsor were also neck and neck from a competitive standpoint, it would be very difficult for Peterborough to get the nod.

The teams I see least capable or unlikely based on the community they are in are:
Peterborough
Brantford
North Bay
Owen Sound

The teams that are borderline and would need some luck in the competitive cycle are:
Ottawa (until they get a new rink)
Sudbury (questionable Amenities and tough location)
Barrie (small rink)
Erie (questionable Amenities and tough location)
Mississauga (lack of fan support)

The borderline teams could all potentially be awarded a Hosting duty but they’d really have to project being very strong and throw a ton of community support behind the bid. They’d likely have to be head and shoulders ahead of any strong city candidate on the ice.

I'm basically in agreement that there are teams who will never be given consideration for hosting duties. However, there are other league sanctioned events ( top prospects game, as an example ) that could, and should be reserved for those communities. At least, toss them a bone...

 

[Petes1987]

Understood. And to be more clear and precise on my end, there are likely 12-15 locations in Ontario that would be suitable on any given year depending on the level of projected team quality in the competition. For example, if London is projected as the top team the year of the Memorial Cup in Ontario, they will get it almost for sure. However, if London is in the running but SSM is clearly the top team that year then it would likely go to SSM. If it were Peterborough that were the top team but a team like Windsor were also neck and neck from a competitive standpoint, it would be very difficult for Peterborough to get the nod.

The teams I see least capable or unlikely based on the community they are in are:
Peterborough
Brantford
North Bay
Owen Sound

The teams that are borderline and would need some luck in the competitive cycle are:
Ottawa (until they get a new rink)
Sudbury (questionable Amenities and tough location)
Barrie (small rink)
Erie (questionable Amenities and tough location)
Mississauga (lack of fan support)

The borderline teams could all potentially be awarded a Hosting duty but they’d really have to project being very strong and throw a ton of community support behind the bid. They’d likely have to be head and shoulders ahead of any strong city candidate on the ice.

I disagree that Peterborough would not be able to hold a Memorial Cup in the future. The only thing that is holding them back in the Peterborough Memorial Centre. It is outdated and needs to be replaced. The city has started the process of finding a location for a new facility and once it is built Peterborough would be a great location for the tournament. Peterborough is a great hockey town and have deep roots in the community they are the longest continuous franchise currently in the OHL and have won the most OHL Championships of any team in the modern era. They have great community support. Last year during their championship run they got great community support and that has continued this season with sellout and near sellout crowds almost every night. The concern about it being a small community is not an issue because of the area they are in the fan base is larger than most people think it is. Peterborough county is large and there are also the surrounding counties and the Petes also get great fan support from people in the county and other surrounding areas. They are not the same team as they were ten, fifteen years ago. They are currently a successful franchise that is well run.