OT: Coronavirus 4 - or is that thread 2.75?

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Sens1Canes2

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Yeah it would be interesting to see how quickly all those "but mah freedoms" and "its against my religion" arguments would dissolve away like a Thanos snap the second something like that was announced. See how strong these people will cling to their personal choice when you dangle a few grand in front of their face to get it.
I think in a lot of cases (I’d call myself a fence sitter, personally) the communication has to make sense. I’ve had Covid twice, once when the vaccine wasn’t available and once when it was (just recently actually). I got a J&J shot in June. Both cases were very mild, the most recent so much so that I traveled 2 days after a positive test (same day of travel test was negative). We could debate whether that was a bad idea, since I needed an inter-island test once there (didn’t know that! Made for a stressful few hours lol).

Anyways, point being, I guess I’m considered not fully vaccinated - but my technical immunity should put me ahead of the 2 shots + booster crowd. So what are we doing? Make the necessary adjustments and get moving. You got Covid? You’re good. Prove it however you want to make them prove it. But … it has to make sense, to move the hesitant in the right direction.
 
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Anton Dubinchuk

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I mean, I can't actually look at the needle going in. That's the painful part, but I can just close my eyes, problem solved!

Yep, I look away. It never hurts that bad if I don’t look.

I do have an unfounded fear of spasm. Basically I’m like “what if while the needle is in, I get a shiver or spasm or something, and I violently move my arm, and then they break the needle off in my arm?” Then I think about how much that would hurt, and then that’s the level of pain I expect every time I go in. While waiting in line I’m mostly just saying to myself “you’ve done this many times before, it really doesn’t hurt”, and then I picture my insane scenario and have to pep talk myself down again. During the actual Covid shots, the hour long lines at CVS didn’t not help this inner dialogue.
 
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Anton Dubinchuk

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Let's be honest here, at this point the conspiracy theories aren't going away no matter what happens. People aren't still "hesitant" in 2022. They're committed to a narrative.

I think this in itself is the narrative. I think the majority of people are just normal people that are trying to balance their values and their time and energy and have major networks and websites and movements competing for their attention span 24/7 and aren't really sure where to go and are trying to make the best of the information presented to them. And I think the conspiracy theory side is really good at rhetoric and I think the science side has been bad at influencing people.

I don't like this narrative, because it assumes not only that no one will change their mind, but that no one is even willing to change their mind. And that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, because when someone does change their mind, they're villified for not being on the right side in the first place, which makes them not want to change their mind.

There's a safety in thought process and mulling through things in public discourse that we no longer allow people (in all facets of life not just this) that just kinda sucks to propagate. It's why sometimes when I'm thinking about something Covid related, or politics/off-topic-related, or whatever, and I don't think it will go entirely "with the grain", I have to actually try to be "brave" enough even though I know I'm probably a minority opinion in what I'm about to post and probably won't win the "likes" war. Sometimes having these types of conversations helps everyone figure out their approach to this mess a little more.
 

Navin R Slavin

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And I think the conspiracy theory side is really good at rhetoric and I think the science side has been bad at influencing people

Always been true. The old saying about the lie traveling halfway around the world while the truth is still getting its boots on is an old saying for a reason. Alas. The truth requires marshaling of evidence; the lie requires only the marshaling of plausible preconceptions.
 

Svechhammer

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I think this in itself is the narrative. I think the majority of people are just normal people that are trying to balance their values and their time and energy and have major networks and websites and movements competing for their attention span 24/7 and aren't really sure where to go and are trying to make the best of the information presented to them. And I think the conspiracy theory side is really good at rhetoric and I think the science side has been bad at influencing people.
Lets be realistic. When we are talking about giving conspiracy theorists a platform, there's really only one major network that fawns over the likes of Alex Jones.
 

Anton Dubinchuk

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Always been true. The old saying about the lie traveling halfway around the world while the truth is still getting its boots on is an old saying for a reason. Alas. The truth requires marshaling of evidence; the lie requires only the marshaling of plausible preconceptions.

Well, yes, it requires the marshalling of evidence. But in some cases I think we think that it requires a 1.000 batting average, and therefore we should do everything possible to make people think we have a 1.000 batting average. I recently wrote the below to someone, and I think posting it here is a bit of an illustration. I might not be dead on the money regarding methods of propaganda, but I know this is something that bugged me personally about the approach and therefore probably bugged others as well.


"A few weeks ago in the grocery store I overheard a conversation between two people who clearly knew each other about the vaccine. Someone said "what these idiots don't realize is that the vaccine was never about preventing the disease, it's all about reducing symptoms." I came embarrassingly close to stopping and injecting myself into the conversation. I'm sorry, what? The vaccine was never about preventing the disease? Look up any talking point from the last 6 months. Seriously. Is your memory that bad? Are you simply not paying attention to anything that's been told to you? The vaccine was all about actual effectiveness, and it was effective for awhile, and then... not so much. Now people are trying to retrofit history to say it was "never about that" - and you wonder why people push back with their own unfounded conspiracy theories.

Drinking your own urine and taking horse dewormer because you know more about the Coronavirus than doctors is very, very dumb. But there's something to be learned from the method of communication. It's not "shut up and take your shot." It's "here, check out this interesting information." If everyone that's not completely convinced were treated like an adult capable of intaking and processing information instead of a body told to "shut up and take the shot", people might actually be convinced of the decent medical evidence out there that says the vaccine helps. Being told "it was never about preventing the disease" is a lie, and therefore makes people less likely to believe you when you're not lying. Sometimes having a bit of humility in saying "hey we're trying to catch a moving train here and something we thought 6 months ago is proving not to be true, here's what we're thinking now and if we want to beat this together we'd love buy-in. We can't guarantee every step we take will be the right one, but we can promise we are doing the best we can with the info we have to fix this for as many people as possible." Promise that'd get a higher vax rate in the US."


The conspiracy theory side is wrong about a lot of things. But they do a lot more "treating people like an adult" than the science side does - at least in my opinion. They don't try to explain away times in the past they've been wrong, they just let them fade out of public memory.

Now, granted, they have less momentum to overcome, since "not doing anything" is always easier than "doing something", and in the case of people in charge of public health their job is to convince people to "do something." But still, lessons to be learned IMO.
 

Borsig

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I know everyone here will bag on me but whatever, I don't care.

I think the vaccine at this point, has questionable value. I had to be vaccinated as uncle sam signs my paycheck. Wife and I got our second shots in November, I think the 12th.

Roughly 60 days later, Jan 16, both us were positive and sick. I had it for ~10 days. It sucks, its like a nasty flu with ear ringing and headaches.

The vaccine doesn't prevent shit, if both of us got covid 60 days after having it. Maybe it keeps you out of the hospital? Beats me. I can't prove that.

If it doesn't keep you from getting it, it's not much a vaccine, is it? If it lessens the symptoms, it's more of a theraputic or a treatment or whatever.

Vaccines keep you from getting things. Polio, Distemper, Shingles, whatever. The Moderna didn't keep me from getting covid - and thats a fact. It wasn't even 60 days.

"Vaccination is the use of vaccines to give you immunity to a disease. " - Webster.

I was not immune. This was forced on me, shoved down my throat and I was not immune, and I am f***ing tired of hearing about how stupid I am for not wanting it. No Boosters, no shots no more. NO.
 

tarheelhockey

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I think this in itself is the narrative. I think the majority of people are just normal people that are trying to balance their values and their time and energy and have major networks and websites and movements competing for their attention span 24/7 and aren't really sure where to go and are trying to make the best of the information presented to them. And I think the conspiracy theory side is really good at rhetoric and I think the science side has been bad at influencing people.

I don't like this narrative, because it assumes not only that no one will change their mind, but that no one is even willing to change their mind. And that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, because when someone does change their mind, they're villified for not being on the right side in the first place, which makes them not want to change their mind.

There's a safety in thought process and mulling through things in public discourse that we no longer allow people (in all facets of life not just this) that just kinda sucks to propagate. It's why sometimes when I'm thinking about something Covid related, or politics/off-topic-related, or whatever, and I don't think it will go entirely "with the grain", I have to actually try to be "brave" enough even though I know I'm probably a minority opinion in what I'm about to post and probably won't win the "likes" war. Sometimes having these types of conversations helps everyone figure out their approach to this mess a little more.

It's really not just a narrative, though. It's pretty clear that the number of people who are willing to be swayed into getting their vaccine is tapering off. About 20% are going to hold out no matter what happens, the data makes that pretty clear at this point.
 
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Anton Dubinchuk

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It's really not just a narrative, though. It's pretty clear that the number of people who are willing to be swayed into getting their vaccine is tapering off. About 20% are going to hold out no matter what happens, the data makes that pretty clear at this point.
Which data? Would love to take a look!
 

Svechhammer

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I know everyone here will bag on me but whatever, I don't care.

I think the vaccine at this point, has questionable value. I had to be vaccinated as uncle sam signs my paycheck. Wife and I got our second shots in November, I think the 12th.

Roughly 60 days later, Jan 16, both us were positive and sick. I had it for ~10 days. It sucks, its like a nasty flu with ear ringing and headaches.

The vaccine doesn't prevent shit, if both of us got covid 60 days after having it. Maybe it keeps you out of the hospital? Beats me. I can't prove that.

If it doesn't keep you from getting it, it's not much a vaccine, is it? If it lessens the symptoms, it's more of a theraputic or a treatment or whatever.

Vaccines keep you from getting things. Polio, Distemper, Shingles, whatever. The Moderna didn't keep me from getting covid - and thats a fact. It wasn't even 60 days.

"Vaccination is the use of vaccines to give you immunity to a disease. " - Webster.

I was not immune. This was forced on me, shoved down my throat and I was not immune, and I am f***ing tired of hearing about how stupid I am for not wanting it. No Boosters, no shots no more. NO.
The good news is that you don't have to prove it. The vaccination rates of those being hospitalized for the disease already did that for you.
 
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Svechhammer

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It's really not just a narrative, though. It's pretty clear that the number of people who are willing to be swayed into getting their vaccine is tapering off. About 20% are going to hold out no matter what happens, the data makes that pretty clear at this point.
At this point, people are willing to literally die to not take the shot because the president in 2020 inferred COVID was a democratic hoax spun about to rig the election.
 

MinJaBen

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Well, yes, it requires the marshalling of evidence. But in some cases I think we think that it requires a 1.000 batting average, and therefore we should do everything possible to make people think we have a 1.000 batting average.
But that is not the way science works. You are guaranteed strikeouts because of the requirement of testing your hypothesis. The more effective solution to the problem is some level of science literacy in the general public through good primary school education. Unfortunately, the politics have become so bad that it benefits one party to have a science illiterate electorate disproportionally than the other.
 
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Anton Dubinchuk

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But that is not the way science works. You are guaranteed strikeouts because of the requirement of testing your hypothesis. The more effective solution to the problem is some level of science literacy in the general public through good primary school education. Unfortunately, the politics have become so bad that it benefits one party to have a science illiterate electorate disproportionally than the other. And coincidentally, that same party also is disproportionally made up of beliefs in restraining all spending and fictitious sky people who bestow wishes if you are good, which obviously doesn't align with a science focused curriculum.

I know that's not the way science works. But it's how the "science-side" is trying to make people see them, which is only making them come across as less-trustworthy.

I think there is plenty of science-denial in all areas from all over. I think responses to my post that immediately points fingers at the "other side" only proves my point. Antagonization helps nothing.
 
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Svechhammer

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Also, there's a lot of news swirling right now that Ivermectin is being shown to have anti-viral effect against COVID, and while this is true, its just a reiteration of information we knew 2 years ago. In vials, yes, Ivermectin works against COVID, the problem is that it has routinely failed having any impact in human trials. Even the recent study out of Japan that is blowing up across conservative media right now is only in vials and not human trials, meaning the claims that are being made right now are very misleading.

 

tarheelhockey

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If it doesn't keep you from getting it, it's not much a vaccine, is it? If it lessens the symptoms, it's more of a theraputic or a treatment or whatever.

"A few weeks ago in the grocery store I overheard a conversation between two people who clearly knew each other about the vaccine. Someone said "what these idiots don't realize is that the vaccine was never about preventing the disease, it's all about reducing symptoms." I came embarrassingly close to stopping and injecting myself into the conversation. I'm sorry, what? The vaccine was never about preventing the disease? Look up any talking point from the last 6 months. Seriously. Is your memory that bad? Are you simply not paying attention to anything that's been told to you? The vaccine was all about actual effectiveness, and it was effective for awhile, and then... not so much. Now people are trying to retrofit history to say it was "never about that" - and you wonder why people push back with their own unfounded conspiracy theories.

You have to be infected in order for the vaccine (any vaccine) to operate. People might rhetorically say it prevents infection, but that's not literally what immunity means. It's not like a shield that causes viruses to bounce off you like bullets... for the vaccine to work, you still have to contract the virus at some level and your body still has to deal with it.

So yes, even if you have a polio vaccine you still have to "get" polio at some level before it can be effective. It simply stops the infection before the virus can make its way from your gut to your nervous system and cause the worst of its damage. Likewise, the COVID vaccines don't mean you don't get COVID at all... they stop the infection short of a catastrophic immune response that causes pneumonia and ARDS (which are a response by your own body, not the virus itself). This is why plenty of vaccinated people show symptoms, but few go to the hospital.

I'm sure a lot of people either didn't know what "immunity" meant in this context, or were loose with their terminology when speaking to the public. But there's no bait-and-switch going on here... in the context of vaccines, "immunity" always means symptom management. If you 100% don't get the disease at all, then there's nothing to fight off... that's common sense.
 

Anton Dubinchuk

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You have to be infected in order for the vaccine (any vaccine) to operate. People might rhetorically say it prevents infection, but that's not literally what immunity means. It's not like a shield that causes viruses to bounce off you like bullets... for the vaccine to work, you still have to contract the virus at some level and your body still has to deal with it.

So yes, even if you have a polio vaccine you still have to "get" polio at some level before it can be effective. It simply stops the infection before the virus can make its way from your gut to your nervous system and cause the worst of its damage. Likewise, the COVID vaccines don't mean you don't get COVID at all... they stop the infection short of a catastrophic immune response that causes pneumonia and ARDS (which are a response by your own body, not the virus itself). This is why plenty of vaccinated people show symptoms, but few go to the hospital.

I'm sure a lot of people either didn't know what "immunity" meant in this context, or were loose with their terminology when speaking to the public. But there's no bait-and-switch going on here... in the context of vaccines, "immunity" always means symptom management. If you 100% don't get the disease at all, then there's nothing to fight off... that's common sense.

You know the mechanics of the vaccine are not what they were talking about. They were talking about contracting symptomatic disease.

If you want to get technical you may be right. But stuff like this is what the average Joe reads: NJ study: Vaccines more than 99% effective against COVID-19. This measures the "instances where people in the Garden State who were fully vaccinated against COVID-19 later tested positive." "We only have a pandemic of the unvaccinated", says the NJ governor. Etc.
 
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tarheelhockey

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Which data? Would love to take a look!

The tapering of the vaccination rate.

Full vaccination went up +50% between New Year's and 4th of July 2021. From the 4th until Thanksgiving, it went up 10%. From Thanksgiving until today, it went up 4%.

At this rate of tapering, we will see effective 0% growth within the next few months. At that point we will be sitting around 70% fully vaccinated and 80% partially, with no reason to expect future growth.
 

Anton Dubinchuk

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The tapering of the vaccination rate.

Full vaccination went up +50% between New Year's and 4th of July 2021. From the 4th until Thanksgiving, it went up 10%. From Thanksgiving until today, it went up 4%.

At this rate of tapering, we will see effective 0% growth within the next few months. At that point we will be sitting around 70% fully vaccinated and 80% partially, with no reason to expect future growth.

Well, that's with the initial pass. Your post was in response to the $5k thing, no? That's behavior given an input, change the input and behavior can change.
 

tarheelhockey

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Technically this is correct but you know this wasn't what the guy at the grocery store was talking about lol.

Grocery Store Guy stated a true fact about what words like "immunity" and "effectiveness" mean in a vaccine context.

It's fair to be annoyed at people building up unrealistic expectations of actual total immunity, either through ignorance or carelessness, and causing people to feel let down. I don't understand getting mad at Grocery Store Guy for pointing out what we should all have known from either Biology 101 or past personal experience with flu shots.
 
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