Concerns about Prospect Scouting Staff

[ChanceVegas]

Is anyone concerned about our prospect scouting staff? Or is it management staff? I am not sure...

Here is the crux of my concern... We valued Cody Glass over Nick Suzuki. Brannstrom was a clear miss. Krebs looks a lot like a slightly faster and smaller version of Glass. Neither of these guys look like more than a 2C tops, while Suzuki was the first dealt and clearly the best talent. Legitimate 1C. Could've been our future.

I just wonder why we value certain players the way we do. Sound more like Mgmt than scouting I guess.

Is there a systemic issue here, or is it just luck? We have been nails on pro prospect scouting, from day one, but we seem to prioritize the wrong prospects. Is that bad prospect scouting, bad Mgmt, or am I just missing something?

Apologies if this was covered while I was gone. Just tell me I am an idiot and we will move on.

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[ChanceVegas]

 

[CupInSIX]

Krebs was being mishandled, and he was up because of all the injuries. He'll be fine if Buffalo has patience with him.

Everything the coaching staff does with younger players feels so random. They put Krebs at C when Stephenson was suspended, and he looked good, but fast forward 8 months and they can't put him in the top 6 with Karlsson out?

Brannstrom was mishandled by Ottawa IMO. If Vegas had kept Suzuki, you can bet Ottawa would have asked for him instead.

So this is really about paying too much in Suzuki, bad luck with Glass' injuries and not being smart about his development. TBH I'm not sure Glass can ever recover from 4 knee injuries at such a young age. His effort level after being sent back down to Henderson was dog shit and I've never soured on a prospect so fast.

The trade value may have been awful, but I'd rather have Patrick with his concussion issues than Glass.

 

[hangman005]

Krebs was being mishandled, and he was up because of all the injuries. He'll be fine if Buffalo has patience with him.

Everything the coaching staff does with younger players feels so random. They put Krebs at C when Stephenson was suspended, and he looked good, but fast forward 8 months and they can't put him in the top 6 with Karlsson out?

Brannstrom was mishandled by Ottawa IMO. If Vegas had kept Suzuki, you can bet Ottawa would have asked for him instead.

So this is really about paying too much in Suzuki, bad luck with Glass' injuries and not being smart about his development. TBH I'm not sure Glass can ever recover from 4 knee injuries at such a young age. His effort level after being sent back down to Henderson was dog shit and I've never soured on a prospect so fast.

The trade value may have been awful, but I'd rather have Patrick with his concussion issues than Glass.

Its probably good for all our 1st round picks that we trade them away before/during/after we mishandle them.

 

[HanSolo]

Krebs was being mishandled, and he was up because of all the injuries. He'll be fine if Buffalo has patience with him.

Everything the coaching staff does with younger players feels so random. They put Krebs at C when Stephenson was suspended, and he looked good, but fast forward 8 months and they can't put him in the top 6 with Karlsson out?

Brannstrom was mishandled by Ottawa IMO. If Vegas had kept Suzuki, you can bet Ottawa would have asked for him instead.

So this is really about paying too much in Suzuki, bad luck with Glass' injuries and not being smart about his development. TBH I'm not sure Glass can ever recover from 4 knee injuries at such a young age. His effort level after being sent back down to Henderson was dog shit and I've never soured on a prospect so fast.

The trade value may have been awful, but I'd rather have Patrick with his concussion issues than Glass.

Glass was being mishandled too, let's be real. It wasn't just injuries.

Our amateur scouts are fine. Too early to tell if they're great but I don't have an issue with their finding prospects. It's our prospect development that's in the toilet with this team's must win now mentality.

The only successful prospect development product to date is Zach Whitecloud. They properly took their time with him. But developing Whitecloud properly is like teaching a kid-genius basic arithmetic, he was always guaranteed to at least be a bottom pair shutdown specialist.

Maybe Hague but I get the sense with Hague that he still hasn't gotten close to his real potential.

 

[azvgk]

We're a successful team, which means we pick somewhat late in the draft, and a desired destination for players, so our philosophy isn't to trade to move up in the draft but rather to roll over our prospects for proven talent. It makes cap issues prominent, so we need accountants and capologists as much as scouts, but we've never missed the playoffs and we're perennial contenders, so they're doing something right. Plus every once in awhile we develop some late-round pick, such as Whitecloud.

And most of the prospects everyone is so high on don't really amount to that much.

 

[willy702]

Funny thing is I posted some stuff about VGK problems in developing players on the Avs forum and I got a bunch of people saying I'm clueless. People will make what they want out of the history of the organization's drafting and promotion of players to the NHL, but to me its pretty poor. I think McPhee really thinks of draft picks and prospects as flippable assets for veterans, nothing more. You really have a hard time concluding anything else based on his history. I think McCrimmon got hired to soften that blow and get a guy who has resources that help them draft well, but we are witness to who really holds the power in the organization.

 

[HanSolo]

We're a successful team, which means we pick somewhat late in the draft, and a desired destination for players, so our philosophy isn't to trade to move up in the draft but rather to roll over our prospects for proven talent. It makes cap issues prominent, so we need accountants and capologists as much as scouts, but we've never missed the playoffs and we're perennial contenders, so they're doing something right. Plus every once in awhile we develop some late-round pick, such as Whitecloud.

And most of the prospects everyone is so high on don't really amount to that much.

Whitecloud was an undrafted prospect who was a proven commodity in the NCAA.

And I don't know. You put Glass on an organization like Tampa before Vegas could get their hands on him and I'm willing to bet his development trajectory would have gone a lot better.

 

[azvgk]

Whitecloud was an undrafted prospect who was a proven commodity in the NCAA.

And I don't know. You put Glass on an organization like Tampa before Vegas could get their hands on him and I'm willing to bet his development trajectory would have gone a lot better.

Whitecloud did not play at a major school - I believe he was at Bemidji State.

It's of course speculation on Glass, but when you're drafting 19 year olds, sometimes they just seem better because they're more advanced at that age than their peers, that is, they have less room to blossom. I don't think VGK or PDB is the only team preferring experience to youth - apart from Suzuki, our top picks we traded haven't become stars.

 

[willy702]

Whitecloud did not play at a major school - I believe he was at Bemidji State.

It's of course speculation on Glass, but when you're drafting 19 year olds, sometimes they just seem better because they're more advanced at that age than their peers, that is, they have less room to blossom. I don't think VGK or PDB is the only team preferring experience to youth - apart from Suzuki, our top picks we traded haven't become stars.

Bemidji State is a major hockey school, they are ranked #20 right now even though their record is just 4-4. Anyone who plays 4 years at a D-I program is pretty much developed there, he only has to learn the team's specific system once he gets to the AHL or NHL. When undrafted guys who get multiple contract offers don't make the NHL, its not because the team couldn't develop him, its mostly because he doesn't have a high enough skill set which is pretty much evidenced by the fact they didn't get drafted. I think that's the Jimmy Schuldt issue, just as an example. Guys who have to take this route have to really work with the agent to identify organizations with glaring holes in their NHL roster in order to get a good shot at making it because they aren't likely to show anything new in the AHL which makes them likely to displace an NHL player.

Whitecloud had a specific skill set of being sort of like Holden or McNabb, but with more upside. Schuldt had to replace a more skilled offensive D-man like a Theo and he just had too little a chance to do that. With Buffalo's organization he's got a much better chance of getting there, but still that's not on VGK/HSK to develop him.

 

[HanSolo]

Whitecloud did not play at a major school - I believe he was at Bemidji State.

It's of course speculation on Glass, but when you're drafting 19 year olds, sometimes they just seem better because they're more advanced at that age than their peers, that is, they have less room to blossom. I don't think VGK or PDB is the only team preferring experience to youth - apart from Suzuki, our top picks we traded haven't become stars.

Glass still had every making to be at minimum a solid 2c. As a junior and even early into his AHL career he all the tools there for a bona-fide top 6 center. Every scout and pundit had him as a top 5 to top 10 prospect in the league. Then what happened? He started playing for the VGK.

I'm not going to rehash all the mistakes Vegas made with him because I've done it as nauseum at this point. But those mistakes put him in the position to suffer the injuries that he did. Couple that with spending the summer packing on muscle only to sit in the press box because the team didn't want to clear a bottom 6 grinder's cap when Glass could've been getting top line minutes in the AHL when our AHL affiliate is in the same metro area, it's no surprise to me that his confidence was shot to shit.

To me, there's no speculation. The organization f***ed up Cody's development at every turn. He should have been sent to Chicago as soon as they saw it wasn't working having him be a winger for Eakin.

I've always resented the idea that guys can be "too good" for the AHL. That's true of a freshly drafted McDavid or Crosby. If you're not primed to be a productive player right out of the draft, then there are absolutely things to be learned and growth to experience playing on a top line or pairing in the AHL. NHL capable doesn't mean a player's potential is at an NHL ready point. And that's what Vegas ignored with Glass and what they were starting to ignore with Krebs.

Glass may be a lost cause at this point but at least Krebs is at a good stage to make something out of his higher end potential.

 

[CupInSIX]

For now, replenish their 22 and under stock in Henderson. They're down 2 this year after trading Glass & Krebs.

They seem to have the most success with mostly developed kids like Roy.


Moving forward, I don't think they'll be so trigger happy with prospects having traded the best ones for their top line. There should be a pretty big hole on RW to fill next season, with a cheap contract, unless they somehow keep Dadonov. Let's wait and see how they develop Dugan, Morozov & Dorofeyev.