Comparing todays stars to the past

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by NJrocket24, Jan 31, 2006.

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  1. NJrocket24

    NJrocket24 Registered User

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    Probably has been done before but i looked a little and i'm still new....

    I'm not that old and haven't seen many of the old greats in action, the oldest i get is about lemieux, brett hull, yzerman etc. 91-92, around there. I have a lot of history books and i'd like to mainly see what star players today remind them of past superstars or players alot.

    my only example but have no proof is forsberg= slightly toned down mikita
     
  2. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    Are you talking about style of play or quality of the player? As far as player quality goes, here is my list of the players who had the top 50 NHL careers on my rating system. Hope this helps.

    1 Wayne Gretzky
    2 Gordie Howe
    3 Bobby Orr
    4 Mario Lemieux
    5 Eddie Shore
    6 Ray Bourque
    7 Jean Believeau
    8 Bobby Hull
    9 Maurice "Rocket" Richard
    10 Phil Esposito
    11 Stan Mikita
    12 Doug Harvey
    13 Guy Lafleur
    14 Jaromir Jagr
    15 Howie Morenz
    16 Paul Coffey
    17 Francis "King" Clancy
    18 Leonard "Red" Kelly
    19 Earl Seibert
    20 Andy Bathgate
    21 Bill Cowley
    22 Bryan Trottier
    23 Cy Denneny
    24 Cecil " Babe" Dye
    25 Marcel Dionne
    26 Ted Kennedy
    27 Syl Apps, Sr.
    28 Elmer Lach
    29 Bobby Clarke
    30 Mike Bossy
    31 Denis Potvin
    32 Pierre Pilote
    33 Larry Robinson
    34 Nels Stewart
    35 Milt Schmidt
    36 Nicklas Lidstrom
    37 Frank Boucher
    38 Lionel Conacher
    39 Joe Sakic
    40 Harry Cameron
    41 Brad Park
    42 Mark Messier
    43 Charlie Conacher
    44 Ted Lindsay
    45 Al MacInnis
    46 Chris Chelios
    47 Max Bentley
    48 Steve Yzerman
    49 Bill Cook
    50 Bernie Geoffrion
     
  3. dok101

    dok101 Registered User

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    The most prolific goal scorer in National Hockey League history at #30? I don't know about that. What is your "rating system?"
     
  4. Leaf Lander

    Leaf Lander Registered User Sponsor

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    Ogopogo

    expand your system lets see the top 100 and in 6 months do top 200
     
  5. Hockey Outsider

    Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    NJrocket24, if you're interested in comparing players from today to those of the past, check out Iain Fyffe's fascinating article: http://www.puckerings.com/research/compare.html where he analyzes comparisons (good and bad) of today's and yesterday's stars.

    Also, that's a very good list of the top 50 players. Nice to see a list with some underrated (but definitely deserving) defensemen, like Seibert and Cameron.
     
  6. chooch*

    chooch* Guest

    kid, i've seen them all since 71:

    1.orr and lemieux
    3.hasek
    4.lafleur
    5.jagr
    6.trottier
    7.forsberg
    8.espo phil
    9.bourque
    10.clarke
    11.Potvin
    12. Dryden
    13.Larry
    14. Roy
    15.one of Ovechkin,spezza,kovalchuk,crosby etc

    there's your top.

    overrated: sittler, 99, bossy
     
  7. KOVALEV10*

    KOVALEV10* Guest

    Chooch... what about Dionne, Yzerman, Kurri, Sakic?
     
  8. Zine

    Zine Registered User

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    Gretz may be overrated, but not in the top 15? :dunno:
     
  9. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    Chooch lives in a fantasy world where not only Orr, Howe, Lemieux are better than Gretz.... (possibly legitimate arguments) but Forsberg, Trottier and Clarke and Larry Robinson are far better than than Gretzky.
     
  10. chooch*

    chooch* Guest

    Good points, but who would I move? The 15th position I suppose.

    Anyway these are the best I saw, Park, Lapointe, Ratelle, too.

    Booray was overrated also and with the right protection Sullivan or Cassels or even Dr Gregg would have potted 3000 points too so that doesnt mean much.
     
  11. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    Since you asked, here is my top 150:

    1 Wayne Gretzky
    2 Gordie Howe
    3 Bobby Orr
    4 Mario Lemieux
    5 Eddie Shore*
    6 Ray Bourque
    7 Jean Believeau
    8 Bobby Hull
    9 Maurice "Rocket" Richard
    10 Phil Esposito
    11 Stan Mikita
    12 Doug Harvey
    13 Guy Lafleur
    14 Jaromir Jagr
    15 Howie Morenz*
    16 Paul Coffey
    17 Francis "King" Clancy*
    18 Leonard "Red" Kelly*
    19 Earl Seibert*
    20 Andy Bathgate
    21 Bill Cowley
    22 Bryan Trottier
    23 Cy Denneny*
    24 Cecil " Babe" Dye*
    25 Marcel Dionne
    26 Ted Kennedy
    27 Syl Apps, Sr.
    28 Elmer Lach
    29 Bobby Clarke
    30 Mike Bossy
    31 Denis Potvin
    32 Pierre Pilote
    33 Larry Robinson
    34 Nels Stewart*
    35 Milt Schmidt
    36 Nicklas Lidstrom
    37 Frank Boucher*
    38 Lionel Conacher*
    39 Joe Sakic
    40 Harry Cameron*
    41 Brad Park
    42 Mark Messier
    43 Charlie Conacher
    44 Ted Lindsay
    45 Al MacInnis
    46 Chris Chelios
    47 Max Bentley
    48 Steve Yzerman
    49 Bill Cook*
    50 Bernie Geoffrion
    51 Doug Bentley
    52 Scott Stevens
    53 Aurel Joliat*
    54 Bill Gadsby
    55 Edouard "Newsy" Lalonde*
    56 Brett Hull
    57 Aubrey "Dit" Clapper*
    58 Rod Langway
    59 Sprague Cleghorn*
    60 Brian Leetch
    61 Teemu Selanne
    62 Jack Stewart*
    63 Borje Salming
    64 Sid Abel
    65 Ebbie Goodfellow*
    66 Adam Oates
    67 Hector "Toe" Blake
    68 Marty Barry
    69 Frank Nighbor*
    70 Mark Howe
    71 Gord Drillon
    72 Tim Horton
    73 Chris Pronger
    74 Norm Ullman
    75 Frank Mahovlich
    76 Peter Forsberg
    77 David "Sweeney" Schriner
    78 Markus Naslund
    79 Roy Conacher
    80 Harry "Punch" Broadbent*
    81 Joe Malone*
    82 Ivan "Ching" Johnson*
    83 Bill Quackenbush*
    84 Doug Gilmour
    85 Peter Stastny
    86 Dale Hawerchuk
    87 Jarome Iginla
    88 Pavel Bure
    89 Ken Reardon*
    90 George Boucher*
    91 Reg Noble*
    92 Henri Richard
    93 Dickie Moore
    94 Jacques Laperriere
    95 Eric Lindros
    96 Denis Savard
    97 Clarence "Hap" Day*
    98 Syd Howe
    99 Sylvio Mantha*
    100 Serge Savard
    101 Guy Lapointe
    102 Bryan Hextall, Sr.
    103 Reg "Hooley" Smith
    104 Art Coulter
    105 Rob Blake
    106 Emile "Butch" Bouchard*
    107 Jean Ratelle
    108 Jack Darragh*
    109 Cecil Dillon
    110 Ace Bailey*
    111 Marcel Pronovost
    112 JC Tremblay
    113 Doug Wilson
    114 Phil Watson
    115 Fern Flaman
    116 Harvey "Busher" Jackson
    117 Ken Randall*
    118 Bert Olmstead
    119 Ron Francis
    120 Alex Delvecchio
    121 Walter "Babe" Pratt*
    122 Larry Murphy
    123 Buddy O'Connor
    124 Paul Kariya
    125 Sergei Fedorov
    126 Albert "Babe" Seibert*
    127 Gaye Stewart
    128 Pat Lafontaine
    129 Tom Anderson
    130 Odie Cleghorn*
    131 Paul Thompson
    132 Eddie Gerard*
    133 Gilbert Perreault
    134 Lynn Patrick
    135 Martin St. Louis
    136 Ralph "Cooney" Weiland*
    137 Jari Kurri
    138 Billy Burch*
    139 Joe Primeau
    140 Billy Boucher*
    141 Dave Keon
    142 Paul Ronty
    143 William "Flash" Hollett*
    144 Bert Corbeau*
    145 Lawrence "Baldy" Northcott
    146 Carl Brewer
    147 Clint Smith
    148 Bill White
    149 Pat Stapleton
    150 Corb Denneny*
    151 Phil Housley
    152 George "Goldie" Prodgers*
    153 John LeClair
    154 Tom Johnson
     
  12. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    Ogopogo,

    I see a noticeable change to your list. What changed? What's the new criteria? I see some players have risen (Yzerman is in the top 50, a more appropriate place), while others have fallen (Kurri is down to 137). I'm guessing the most important hockey, the playoffs, still doesn't factor much into the rankings. (Since Kurri, one of the better clutch wingers ever, is 137th, and other clutch players are out of the top 100).
     
  13. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    One of the fundamental changes I made was to eliminate the post season all-star selections. These gave players like John LeClair (LW) a distinct advantage over players like Steve Yzerman (C). Rather than using post-season all stars, I am now using the top 7 finishers in the Hart Trophy voting - not just the winner and runner up. I think this gives a more accurate view of who the greats really are.

    As far as playoffs go, the only information I am currently using is the Conn Smythe trophy. I have compiled my list of greatest playoff scorers but, that still hurts players who were stuck on bad teams for their entire career (i.e. Marcel Dionne). So, to this point, I have not incorporated playoff performance other than Conn Smythe awards.
     
  14. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    A very smart move with eliminating the post-season all-stars. The discrepency between centre and the other two positions is glaring. IMO, there are nine centres who belong in the top 25-30 all-time: Gretzky, Lemieux, Beliveau, Esposito, Trottier, Clarke, Mikita, Morenz and Messier. There are only three LWs who are veritable top-50 all-time players - Hull, Lindsay and Mahovalich. Others deserve consideration (Johnny Bucyk, for example), but only three would be consensus. (I think the THN top 50 had roughly a dozen Cs before the No. 3 LW, Mahovalic, who came in around 36 or 37.

    I wouldn't rank Dionne in the top 25. Yes, he had some great seasons, and was on some dog teams in his career, but he rarely, if ever, elevated his play in the post-season. It's a very big strike against him when discussing the all-time greats, and a big reason why he hovered around 40th in the THN top 50.

    Playoffs count, big-time, and while Dionne can't be faulted for his lack of playoff series wins, since he was never on a top team, you can fault him for consistently not raising his play to another level. (Something almost all of the all-time greats, from Gretzky to Esposito, were able to do).
     
  15. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    I don't know about some of these older players but Kurri at 137 is pretty low. He is better than Lafontaine, Martin St. Louis, (one great season and he outranks Kurri?!?), and many more. Kurri is a top 50 player.
     
  16. Czech Your Math

    Czech Your Math Registered User

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    Good list

    From a purely scoring standpoint, if you adjust for league scoring level, the following were the best scorers at their peak:

    Lemieux & Gretzky
    ..............
    Jagr & Esposito
    ..............
    Orr leads the next group

    Amazing for Orr to be #5 as a defenseman.

    As far as career scoring:

    Gretzky & Howe
    Jagr, Messier & Esposito
     
  17. KOVALEV10*

    KOVALEV10* Guest

    Lafleur was one of the best at his peak as well. I would choose him before Jagr and Espo.
     
  18. Are these lists just for scoring or what? Messier at 42? Come on...top 10 at least.
     
  19. GuloGulo

    GuloGulo Registered User

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    How do you motivate putting Selanne ahead of Fedorov? Fedorov has been more or less a PPG scorer both in playoffs and regular seasons for his entire career, a multiple trophy winner, all star, cup winner (important cog in every one of them, even the one he slipped in late on)?

    Kariya a better career than Fedorov? No.
    Naslund a better career than Fedorov? Never, not even close.
     
  20. pappyline

    pappyline Registered User

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    Interesting attempt to rate top 150 players but why & how. I expect I am older than you and I have been watching since the mid 50's. Still I have only seen 31 of your top 50 play. Admire that you have a lot of old time players on your list but don't understand your selection methods. Based on what I have seen, Greyzy is not #1, Bobby Hull belongs in the top 5 and Phil Esposito does not belong in the top 10.
     
  21. From the Habs:

    Saku Koivu kind of reminds me of Ralph Backstrom.
    Chris Chelios a little of Guy Lapointe.
    Nicklas Sundstrom - Jim Roberts.
    Jose Theodore - Rogie Vachon
     
  22. You've clearly put alot of research into this, and I'm not seriously questioning it --- but no Sid Abel in the top 154?
     
  23. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    Check out the #64 slot. ;)
     
  24. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    My GREATEST POINT SCORERS list goes something like this:


    1 Wayne Gretzky
    2 Gordie Howe
    3 Mario Lemieux
    4 Phil Esposito
    5 Stan Mikita
    6 Maurice Richard
    7 Bobby Hull
    8 Cy Denneny
    9 Jaromir Jagr
    10 Jean Beliveau
    11 Andy Bathgate
    12 Bobby Orr
    13 Marcel Dionne
    14 Howie Morenz
    15 Ted Lindsay
    16 Guy Lafleur
    17 Babe Dye
    18 Bill Cowley
    19 Mike Bossy
    20 Joe Sakic
    21 Doug Bentley
    22 Max Bentley
    23 Bill Cook
    24 Charlie Conacher
    25 Newsy Lalonde
    26 Bernie Geoffrion
    27 Frank Boucher
    28 Joe Malone
    29 Elmer Lach
    30 Peter Stastny
    31 Harvey Jackson
    32 Sweeney Schriner
    33 Nels Stewart
    34 Aurel Joliat
    35 Peter Forsberg
    36 Toe Blake
    37 Marty Barry
    38 Syl Apps, Sr.
    39 Bryan Trottier
    40 Teemu Selanne
    41 Norm Ullman
    42 Paul Coffey
    43 Sid Abel
    44 Bobby Clarke
    45 Jari Kurri
    46 Markus Naslund
    47 Mark Messier
    48 Jean Ratelle
    49 Steve Yzerman
    50 Adam Oates
    51 Paul Kariya
    52 Gordie Drillon
    53 Milt Schmidt
    54 Joe Primeau
    55 Dickie Moore
    56 Lynn Patrick
    57 Frank Mahovlich
    58 Frank Nighbor
    59 Denis Savard
    60 Pavel Bure
    61 Bryan Hextall
    62 Brett Hull
    63 Billy Boucher
    64 Ace Bailey
    65 Henri Richard
    66 Ken Hodge
    67 Gilbert Perreault
    68 Clint Smith
    69 Mark Recchi
    70 Paul Thompson
    71 Alex Delvecchio
    72 Gaye Stewart
    73 Dale Hawerchuk
    74 Roy Conacher
    75 Reg Noble
    76 Jack Adams
    77 Larry Aurie
    78 Bronco Horvath
    79 Eric Lindros
    80 Ron Francis
    81 Corb Denneny
    82 Odie Cleghorn
    83 Carson Cooper
    84 Todd Bertuzzi
    85 Bert Olmstead
    86 Ed Litzenberger
    87 Rick MacLeish
    88 Doug Gilmour
    89 Lorne Carr
    90 Billy Taylor
    91 Bobby Rousseau
    92 Paul Ronty
    93 Punch Broadbent
    94 Cooney Weiland
    95 Reg Smith
    96 Herb Cain
    97 Rod Gilbert
    98 Jacques Lemaire
    99 Patrick Elias
    100 Jarome Iginla
    101 Martin St. Louis
    102 Ted Kennedy
    103 Johnny Bucyk
    104 Bernie Nicholls
    Kevin Stevens
    Pat Lafontaine
    Sergei Fedorov
    Buddy O'Connor
    Bobby Bauer
    Cecil Dillon
    Syd Howe
    Ebbie Goodfellow
    Harry Cameron
    Dick Irvin
    115 Woody Dumart
    Kenny Wharram
    Ilya Kovalchuk
    John LeClair
    119 Dit Clapper
    Baldy Northcott
    Don Grosso
    Earl Reibel
    Wayne Cashman
    Steve Shutt
    Darryl Sittler
    Kent Nilsson
    Michel Goulet
    Mats Sundin
    Joe Thornton
    Alexei Zhamnov
    131 George Boucher
    Jimmy Herberts
    George Hay
    Phil Goyette
    Pete Mahovlich
    Barry Pederson
    Luc Robitaille
    138 Didier Pitre
    139 Frank Fredrickson
    Andy Blair
    Bill Thoms
    Georges Mantha
    Phil Watson
    Carl Liscombe
    Don Raleigh
    Vic Hadfield
    Bill Barber
    Denis Potvin
    Dennis Maruk
    Milan Hejduk
    151 Bill Mosienko
    152 Jack Darragh
    Paul Haynes
    Art Chapman
    Wally Hergesheimer
    Red Kelly
    Mike Rogers
    Pierre Turgeon
    159 Billy Burch
    Hec Kilrea
    Sid Smith
    Red Sullivan
    Walt Tkaczuk
    Pierre Larouche
    Bob MacMillan
    Dave Taylor
    Alexei Kovalev
    Jason Allison
    Martin Straka
    Rob Brown
    John Cullen
    Marian Hossa
    173 Bud Poile
    Jim Conacher
    Tod Sloan
    Tim Young
    Jeremy Roenick
    Pavol Demitra
    179 Doc Romnes
    Art Gagne
    Alf Skinner
    Mickey Roach
    Neil Colville
    Claude Provost
    Yvan Cournoyer
    Rick Martin
    Guy Chouinard
    Dino Ciccarelli
    Theoren Fleury
    Zigmund Palffy
    Alexei Yashin
    192 Bun Cook
    Dave Trottier
    Herb Lewis
    Johnny Gagnon
    Bob Gracie
    Tom Anderson
    Charlie Simmer
    Owen Nolan
    Tony Amonte
    201 Ab DeMarco, Sr.
    202 Joe Mullen
    Syl Apps, Jr.
    King Clancy
    Goldie Prodgers
    Sprague Cleghorn
    Metro Prystai
    Don McKenny
    Fleming Mackell
    Ralph Backstrom
    Murray Oliver
    Rene Robert
    Terry O'Reilly
    214 Joe Carveth
    215 Glen Murray
    Daniel Alfredsson
    Corey Stillman
    Harry Oliver
    Normie Himes
    Red Berenson
    JP Parise
    John Ogrodnick
    Alexander Mogilny
    224 Amos Arbour
    Cully Wilson
    Harry Watson
    Billy Reay
    Gus Bodnar
    Mickey Redmond
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2006
  25. pappyline

    pappyline Registered User

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    "My GREATEST SCORERS list goes something like this:"

    Ogopogo. Amazed that you took the time to rate over 200 players. You really need to get out more. This list makes even less sense than your list of 150 best careers. Presume you had a system of some sort to do it and am curious to hear what it is. By te way does the term scorer mean points or goals.
     
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