Commercialization ruining minor hockey

[patnyrnyg]

Dude - I'm looking at Gretzky's autobiography right now. He talks about my brother-in-law in it - he died from childhood leukemia, but Gretz got to know him back when he played in Edmonton and he would visit the children's hospital. My oldest kid is named after his uncle, God rest him.

Let it never be said that Walter Gretzky didn't sacrifice mightily so his kid could play. Absolutely.

But kids sports has absolutely been an arms race from the 1960s until now. The training a youth hockey player did in the 1960s, or 1980s, pales in comparison to what kids are doing now. Not necessarily for the better, but it is what it is,

(and sorry, but when you pulled out the "Gretzky's book" reference, I saw red for a moment. Because I'm not kidding that he talks about my wife's brother in it)

I am sorry to hear that, but not sure what that has to do with the topic at hand.

Why did Gretzky's parents have to make sacrifices for him and his brothers to play hockey? BECAUSE IT WAS EXPENSIVE.

In 1990, it cost my parents $90 for 4 kids to play little league baseball. Not $90 each, total. Was $50 for 1 kid, $75 for 2, $90 for 3 or more. I know because they were having a registration on a day where my dad was away on business and my mom had to work that evening. So, she left me a check and I walked to the field. I remember the director was on-duty that night saying, "4 of you? 90. 90 is the most you can pay." I didnt play hockey, but I am willing to bet my lungs that the parents of my friends who did paid a hell of a lot more and that is before buying equipment. Since my daughter has started playing, I have spoken to them about it and the differences between now and when they played. 2 happen to be coaches. They all did private skating lessons until they were about 12-13 in addition to practices. They also did summer camps usually a week. Big difference they see is when they played, tryouts were in August. Now, the season ends in February and we have tryouts in March/April for the following year.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I am sorry to hear that, but not sure what that has to do with the topic at hand.

Why did Gretzky's parents have to make sacrifices for him and his brothers to play hockey? BECAUSE IT WAS EXPENSIVE.

But here's the difference.

Walter Gretzky (and I had to look this up) was an installer for the phone company. A really solid lower-middle-class job.

When I look around at a game for my older kid, none of the parents are working for the phone company. They're professionals or business owners.

The stuff Walter was teaching Wayne back in the 1960s (look where the puck is going, not where it is) was really innovative back then, but has been absorbed into mainstream coaching now.

It would be really, really hard for the next Wayne Gretzky to come about these days, because it would probably be cost-prohibitive for the son of a phone company installer to be able to afford elite minor hockey.

Throughout this thread I have been acknowledging this issue - I just don't know what you do about it.

 

[patnyrnyg]

This is where the whole issue starts for me. Commercialized travel teams are descending on families as early as 8 or 9 to get kids into this model. The ones who don’t buy in cannot possibly advance in the sport, because what 8 year old is going to out-skate a kid who is getting private coaching 6 days a week? So right there, in elementary school, that kid’s path diverts away from ever having any chance at being an elite player. It doesn’t matter if he’s the best athlete in the room, the most committed player, the fiercest competitor. If mom and dad decide in 2nd grade that they’re not paying for bus trips and 5am practices, that’s it, there’s now a gap between him and the kids whose families could afford it OR who gave in to the pressure to stretch their finances and make it happen.

Every time you flip the calendar, the price points rise and the pressure gets more intense. So the kid whose family stretched to make it work at 9, they’re now facing a serious conundrum at 12. That kid falls off the radar just the same as he would have if they never made the effort in the first place. He’d have been better off playing a sport where the price points were cheaper and he’d have really had a shot.

People figure this stuff out eventually. Word gets around when a sport hits the equestrian-level of exclusivity. People stop exposing their kid to the thing they know they can’t afford and will break the kid’s heart. Participation goes down and it gets even more elite. In the long term, it’s a death spiral for everyone but the big-money participants.

Even if you don’t give a damn about the social impacts that this, this is an atrocious basis for a development system. Sure, you’re going to see incredibly well trained 17 year olds at the end of the day. But they won’t be the best talent available. They’ll be the most athletic kids remaining after the wealthy kids are whittled down.

Ironically, this is effectively a return to the sport circa 1890, when it was a bunch of literal country clubs playing against each other. Nobody should take seriously the argument that those players were on the same athletic level as top-level players from later generations. It was, quite simply, an inferior pool of players who looked great for lack of real competition. We are hurtling toward the same dynamics 130 years later.

Why does it have to be just about becoming an elite player? Is that all that matters? I pay for my daughter to play and for the extra work because she loves playing and more importantly loves practicing. When people find out she plays the conversation usually goes:

Them: Your daughter plays hockey?
me : yes. she is a goalie.
Them: Oh, she can get a scholarship for that.

Apparently every girl who plays hockey gets a scholarship and truthfully she is 10. That is the furthest thing from my mind right now. My 6 year old doesnt want to play hockey because, "Ice skating is too cold." She wanted to try gymnastics. When I mentioned it to a few people, they all said something along the lines of, "But she is going to be tall." I am 6'2" and my wife is 5'11". As if I am worried about whether she could make the Olympic team.

If a 10 or 12 year old kid wants to try playing hockey, should the parents not bother because he will never be elite? If the kid does join and loves it and wants to get better should the parents not bother getting him additional skating lessons or take him to extra clinics, because he probably won't go pro or even get a d1 scholarship?

 

[patnyrnyg]

But here's the difference.

Walter Gretzky (and I had to look this up) was an installer for the phone company. A really solid lower-middle-class job.

When I look around at a game for my older kid, none of the parents are working for the phone company. They're professionals or business owners.

The stuff Walter was teaching Wayne back in the 1960s (look where the puck is going, not where it is) was really innovative back then, but has been absorbed into mainstream coaching now.

It would be really, really hard for the next Wayne Gretzky to come about these days, because it would probably be cost-prohibitive for the son of a phone company installer to be able to afford elite minor hockey.

Throughout this thread I have been acknowledging this issue - I just don't know what you do about it.

Not the case at my organization. 13 kids on her team. Looking at the fathers (including the coaches) we have 2 nyc fireman, 1 nyc cop, 1 nyc teacher, 2 small business owners, 1 pharmacist, 1 salesman, and 1 who works for Verizon, dont know the others. That is pretty much typical of the teams across my organization. 11 teams total. Cost for squirt is ~$4K, not sure if pw's and bantams pay more. Mite is less. 15 minutes away there is a rink with a AAA program. I know 2 kids who play on it. One, mom is a nyc teacher dad is a retired nyc cop and now is a partner in a tactical training facility (or something like that). They are divorced and certainly not wealthy. The other kid I don't know the father as well, but I believe he is a PA.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Not the case at my organization. 13 kids on her team. Looking at the fathers (including the coaches) we have 2 nyc fireman, 1 nyc cop, 1 nyc teacher, 2 small business owners, 1 pharmacist, 1 salesman, and 1 who works for Verizon, dont know the others. That is pretty much typical of the teams across my organization. 11 teams total. Cost for squirt is ~$4K, not sure if pw's and bantams pay more. Mite is less. 15 minutes away there is a rink with a AAA program. I know 2 kids who play on it. One, mom is a nyc teacher dad is a retired nyc cop and now is a partner in a tactical training facility (or something like that). They are divorced and certainly not wealthy. The other kid I don't know the father as well, but I believe he is a PA.

It's tough to compare across the border, but my son is playing U15AA (not even AAA), which is the former bantam. I'm just trying to think... fees were $4700, plus cash call of $1500, plus $2000 for his hockey school, $900 for spring hockey (plus the cost of traveling to Vegas). We don't have to buy a full set of new gear every year but I know we got new skates and a new stick this year for a few hundred,, a few hundred more for summer camps... We have to have hit $10k easy.

Like I have said - if all you want to do is have your kid play hockey you can definitely do it fairly affordably. It's the "elite" stream that gets f***ing expensive.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Cash call of 1500 and 2000 hockey school? Im genuinely asking what that is? Cash call and why are you required to pay for hockey school? Was this stated upfront or surprises?

As for the other point, I doubt most parents are going into this with the thought their kid is going to be playing elite hockey. The price of doing anything "elite" is high for all sports.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Cash call of 1500 and 2000 hockey school? Im genuinely asking what that is? Cash call and why are you required to pay for hockey school? Was this stated upfront or surprises?

As for the other point, I doubt most parents are going into this with the thought their kid is going to be playing elite hockey. The price of doing anything "elite" is high for all sports.

Cash call is for trournaments, travel and any other extras that the coach works out and is not incorporated into the regular fees. Our club sets a max of $300 / month - and of course this year they want to max that amount (they asked for much less last year). It was stated ahead of time that this was a possibility.

Hockey school - kid goes to a special program through the local catholic school, where 2x week he has an on-ice session, plus extra off-ice training. It's not required - but then again the majority of his teammates seem to go to that school also.

 

[OrrNumber4]

It's happening in all facets. Even in academics, the bar has been raised very high.

 

[Saskatoon]

Yea I feel like we need a little bit of a cultural shift. Sure we want to feed players into the elite stream but only the players that belong there. Like it needs to be ok to play hockey for fun and not with the goal of playing pro. And honestly I think parents push their kids down that path more than kids demand to go down that path.

I suspect the problem is capitalism - people have discovered they can make a lot of money off parents who think their kid has a shot when in reality they likely won't even be good enough to play pro in even secondary leagues. Hockey Canada could push some marketing on its great to play casually but they don't have much incentive too other than it might be good for the game.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Yea I feel like we need a little bit of a cultural shift. Sure we want to feed players into the elite stream but only the players that belong there. Like it needs to be ok to play hockey for fun and not with the goal of playing pro. And honestly I think parents push their kids down that path more than kids demand to go down that path.

I suspect the problem is capitalism - people have discovered they can make a lot of money off parents who think their kid has a shot when in reality they likely won't even be good enough to play pro in even secondary leagues. Hockey Canada could push some marketing on its great to play casually but they don't have much incentive too other than it might be good for the game.

I'm going to strongly disagree that "the problem is capitalism". Canada and the US have been capitalistic since forever. Something more specific is going on.

@OrrNumber4 pointed out this happens in all kinds of facets of life. College admissions have gotten crazy, both with a rush to get into high prestige schools, and needing a lengthy resume to be able to qualify (at age 18!).

I'm going to suggest a different cause (at least in part) - demographics. Fertility levels in the West have declined sharply over time. Let's see - Wayne Gretzky was born in 1961. The fertility rate in Canada (which is the average number of babies a woman will have in her lifetime) was 3.88. People, generally speaking had large families. I'm 48, when I was born the fertility rate was 1.98.

In 2020 it's down to 1.53.

If you have a large family you're not going to spend as much money on your kids. In part because you just have more mouths to feed, and more expenses per kid. But also if you have on average 4 kids, you can feel pretty sure that at least one of them will do well for themselves, and be able to assist you when you get older.

If you only have 1 kid the analysis changes. Now you only have 1 kid to support, so you have more money to spend. But also you then want to really make sure that kid does well for themselves in life, so you're more likely in invest in their childhoods - whether that's through hockey, dance, academics, music, or whatever.

 

[Saskatoon]

I'm going to strongly disagree that "the problem is capitalism". Canada and the US have been capitalistic since forever. Something more specific is going on.

@OrrNumber4 pointed out this happens in all kinds of facets of life. College admissions have gotten crazy, both with a rush to get into high prestige schools, and needing a lengthy resume to be able to qualify (at age 18!).

I'm going to suggest a different cause (at least in part) - demographics. Fertility levels in the West have declined sharply over time. Let's see - Wayne Gretzky was born in 1961. The fertility rate in Canada (which is the average number of babies a woman will have in her lifetime) was 3.88. People, generally speaking had large families. I'm 48, when I was born the fertility rate was 1.98.

In 2020 it's down to 1.53.

If you have a large family you're not going to spend as much money on your kids. In part because you just have more mouths to feed, and more expenses per kid. But also if you have on average 4 kids, you can feel pretty sure that at least one of them will do well for themselves, and be able to assist you when you get older.

If you only have 1 kid the analysis changes. Now you only have 1 kid to support, so you have more money to spend. But also you then want to really make sure that kid does well for themselves in life, so you're more likely in invest in their childhoods - whether that's through hockey, dance, academics, music, or whatever.

Yea they have been capitalist but more recently the capitalist mindset has entered into youth hockey in a greater way. Sure for certain players starting more elite training earlier is fine but most of the people who get sucked into that definitely don't belong there these days. Lots of people trying to make a buck off that

Demographics play a role too but I have been around hockey my whole life and yea the grassroots level feels different to me these days. But that is just my opinion.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Yea they have been capitalist but more recently the capitalist mindset has entered into youth hockey in a greater way. Sure for certain players starting more elite training earlier is fine but most of the people who get sucked into that definitely don't belong there these days. Lots of people trying to make a buck off that

Demographics play a role too but I have been around hockey my whole life and yea the grassroots level feels different to me these days. But that is just my opinion.

Of course it's different. Everybody agrees it's different. The hard part is why is it different, and the even harder part is what to do about it.

I really reject that it's "the capitalist mindset". All these outfits for powerskating, skills development, dryland training, spring hockey - they exist because there's a market. People out there want those kinds of programs. People want those programs because they work - not that they'll lead to their kid making the NHL (that's rarely the point), but because they work at making their kid better compared to their peers.

 

[Slats432]

Google Zach Hyman’s GTHL career path orchestrated by his dad (Stuart Hyman) )if you don’t know it already. Six figures is chump change.

How a dad with NHL dreams bankrolled a hockey empire

Stuart Hyman bankrolled a vast hockey empire, buying teams where his sons played and even a scouting service that ranks NHL hopefuls.

www.thestar.com

 

[jetsmooseice]

How a dad with NHL dreams bankrolled a hockey empire

Stuart Hyman bankrolled a vast hockey empire, buying teams where his sons played and even a scouting service that ranks NHL hopefuls.

www.thestar.com

As a sidenote, on the GTHL, the level of competition is something else. I was in Toronto on the weekend and I was in the Paramount Centre Sunday night. The Mississauga Beast 11 AA team was taking on the Toronto Eagles. I can confidently say that I have never seen anything close to that level of play among the 11 year olds in Manitoba except for the elite spring hockey tournament teams. Either the Beast or Eagles would absolutely steamroll the same age competition here.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I'm going to strongly disagree that "the problem is capitalism". Canada and the US have been capitalistic since forever. Something more specific is going on.

@OrrNumber4 pointed out this happens in all kinds of facets of life. College admissions have gotten crazy, both with a rush to get into high prestige schools, and needing a lengthy resume to be able to qualify (at age 18!).

I'm going to suggest a different cause (at least in part) - demographics. Fertility levels in the West have declined sharply over time. Let's see - Wayne Gretzky was born in 1961. The fertility rate in Canada (which is the average number of babies a woman will have in her lifetime) was 3.88. People, generally speaking had large families. I'm 48, when I was born the fertility rate was 1.98.

In 2020 it's down to 1.53.

If you have a large family you're not going to spend as much money on your kids. In part because you just have more mouths to feed, and more expenses per kid. But also if you have on average 4 kids, you can feel pretty sure that at least one of them will do well for themselves, and be able to assist you when you get older.

If you only have 1 kid the analysis changes. Now you only have 1 kid to support, so you have more money to spend. But also you then want to really make sure that kid does well for themselves in life, so you're more likely in invest in their childhoods - whether that's through hockey, dance, academics, music, or whatever.

Just one little quibble on the logic here — if your concern is having help when you’re older, the solution is to stop throwing money at your children’s hobbies and invest it responsibly so you can care for yourself in retirement.

 

[oldunclehue]

As a sidenote, on the GTHL, the level of competition is something else. I was in Toronto on the weekend and I was in the Paramount Centre Sunday night. The Mississauga Beast 11 AA team was taking on the Toronto Eagles. I can confidently say that I have never seen anything close to that level of play among the 11 year olds in Manitoba except for the elite spring hockey tournament teams. Either the Beast or Eagles would absolutely steamroll the same age competition here.

Yup, but yet every minor hockey association in the province has multiple crazy hockey parents who are hell bent on their kid being the best thing since McDavid or see what the best kids around the country are doing (Academies, skills coaches, off ice skills, nutritionists, extra skates, no time off of the sport).

I laugh at these parents who think little Johnny from rural Manitoba is going to the NHL.

There are probably 10,000 kids their age better then their kid in Canada alone.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Yup, but yet every minor hockey association in the province has multiple crazy hockey parents who are hell bent on their kid being the best thing since McDavid or see what the best kids around the country are doing (Academies, skills coaches, off ice skills, nutritionists, extra skates, no time off of the sport).

I laugh at these parents who think little Johnny from rural Manitoba is going to the NHL.

There are probably 10,000 kids their age better then their kid in Canada alone.

Well... I mean, occasionally it happens.

Morgan Geekie (and soon Conor Geekie), James Reimer, Travis Hamonic, Darren Helm, Travis Sanheim are a few NHLers from rural Manitoba. Zach Whitecloud and Keegan Kolesar if you want to include Brandon on that list.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Yup, but yet every minor hockey association in the province has multiple crazy hockey parents who are hell bent on their kid being the best thing since McDavid or see what the best kids around the country are doing (Academies, skills coaches, off ice skills, nutritionists, extra skates, no time off of the sport).

I laugh at these parents who think little Johnny from rural Manitoba is going to the NHL.

There are probably 10,000 kids their age better then their kid in Canada alone.

Yeah, I don't know why you're knocking rural Manitoba - plenty of NHLers have come from there.

I know lots and lots of hockey parents - some of whom are pretty intense about hockey. Almost all of them however say at least publicly that there kid is never going to play in the NHL, even as they spend thousands of dollars on their kids hockey. (I did say almost, I can think of two who do seem to think their kid will be an NHL star).

 

[oldunclehue]

Yeah, I don't know why you're knocking rural Manitoba - plenty of NHLers have come from there.

I know lots and lots of hockey parents - some of whom are pretty intense about hockey. Almost all of them however say at least publicly that there kid is never going to play in the NHL, even as they spend thousands of dollars on their kids hockey. (I did say almost, I can think of two who do seem to think their kid will be an NHL star).

You don't live here anymore, hockey manitoba is beyond pathetic in how it handles development in rural areas. Everything is focused on Winnipeg and Brandon. I am not saying no kids will ever go to the NHL from rural MB. Im simply saying the odds are against and if your kid is 15 years old and playing tier 4 hockey in small town prairie....odds are stacked against the kid.

I am comparing hockey in manitoba....especially smaller associations to Toronto's GTL AAA. I've taken cross roster teams of kids from our area, the best kids to tournaments just in Winnipeg. We were crushed by teams in just Winnipeg...with our best players. Those Winnipeg teams would get crushed by teams out of larger centres such as Toronto, Edmonton, Calgary, Lower Mainland etc etc.

You argue with just about everyone on here. It must be a fun life to spend hours disagreeing with everyone on here. It's wild to read your posts.

Well... I mean, occasionally it happens.

Morgan Geekie (and soon Conor Geekie), James Reimer, Travis Hamonic, Darren Helm, Travis Sanheim are a few NHLers from rural Manitoba. Zach Whitecloud and Keegan Kolesar if you want to include Brandon on that list.

Geekies went to RHA so weren't developed in their small towns during the most important time of their development. Whitecloud and Kolesar as you said were Brandon developed.

The rest were smaller community developed, add in Pulock too, so it can happen....but 5 kids from rural Manitoba over the span of the last what 10 years? Low odds.

 

[Yukon Joe]

You don't live here anymore, hockey manitoba is beyond pathetic in how it handles development in rural areas. Everything is focused on Winnipeg and Brandon. I am not saying no kids will ever go to the NHL from rural MB. Im simply saying the odds are against and if your kid is 15 years old and playing tier 4 hockey in small town prairie....odds are stacked against the kid.

I am comparing hockey in manitoba....especially smaller associations to Toronto's GTL AAA. I've taken cross roster teams of kids from our area, the best kids to tournaments just in Winnipeg. We were crushed by teams in just Winnipeg...with our best players. Those Winnipeg teams would get crushed by teams out of larger centres such as Toronto, Edmonton, Calgary, Lower Mainland etc etc.

You argue with just about everyone on here. It must be a fun life to spend hours disagreeing with everyone on here. It's wild to read your posts.

So yes, I'm a proud born and raised Winnipegger and Manitoban, but also quite clear I haven't lived there for 20 years now. I'm always open that I'm reporting what I see and what my opinions are - not that they're objective fact.

Yes - if you're playing U16/17/18 Tier 4, you're not making the NHL. I'll certainly give you that.

On my kids spring team there was a family from Wainwright. So they'd have to drive a solid two hours each way for a practice here in Edmonton. They described that there just wasn't anything more local, at least for spring hockey, at a high enough level. I also casually know Dylan Cozens parents (I come by the name Yukon Joe honestly) and I know at a certain point they had to send Dylan south from Yukon in order to pursue his hockey development.

But still I was responding to what you said

I laugh at these parents who think little Johnny from rural Manitoba is going to the NHL.

At a certain point little Johnny might need to start playing in a bigger centre somehow, but I very much disagree that some 8 year old phenom in, I dunno, Dauphin Manitoba can never play in the NHL because he's from Dauphin.

I can also certainly tell you that helping to assistant coach my younger kid we've gone to tournaments in small towns and gotten absolutely creamed by those small town teams. Just coming from Edmonton didn't mean anything.

Like I said Hugh - just sharing my perspective. Not saying I'm right and you're wrong.

 

[jetsmooseice]

I can also certainly tell you that helping to assistant coach my younger kid we've gone to tournaments in small towns and gotten absolutely creamed by those small town teams. Just coming from Edmonton didn't mean anything.

My kid has this experience last season in the Jets Challenge Cup tournament. They held their own except for the one small town team they played that just rag-dolled them.

Geekies went to RHA so weren't developed in their small towns during the most important time of their development. Whitecloud and Kolesar as you said were Brandon developed.

According to the Geekies' eliteprospects pages, they played in the local Yellowhead Chiefs AAA system, no mention of any CSSHL experience.

 

[Yukon Joe]

My experience has been that in the cities we have to slice and dice the kids multiple ways into 6 different Tiers. But in smaller centres they may only have enough talent at any given age level for just a couple of teams, or even just a single team. But that single team has to be put into the same 1-6 tiering system the rest of the province uses.

So if a small town forms only 2 U11 teams, they may be assigned to tiers 2 and 5. But that "Tier 2" team may well have a couple of kids that would easily be tier 1 in the city, and can really dominate against a Tier 2 city team.

Or at least that's how I've seen it.

I will freely admit that travelling however is the really rough part of playing hockey in rural MB (or rural AB).

 

[Yukon Joe]

So this isn't a story of commercialization per se, but is just a general gripe about minor hockey...

I've now heard this story from a couple of parents. Their kid plays U13AA. That winds up being a pretty big time commitment, being on-ice 4-5 times per week. Kid moves up to U15. As a first year kid they do not make the U15AA team (not unusual), so they drop down to rep hockey. But even at Tier 1 rep hockey they are one the ice twice - one practice and one game per week. Which is just fine for playing fun hockey, but for those kids who aspire to make the AA team the next year (or even try to make AAA) it almost certainly isn't enough, so they're scrambling to find different opportunities to get extra on-ice practices.

Again, not sure what the answer is, but it does feed straight back into the private hockey industry - and that's for kids who jump to fully private leagues as a result of being cut.

 

[Slats432]

So this isn't a story of commercialization per se, but is just a general gripe about minor hockey...

I've now heard this story from a couple of parents. Their kid plays U13AA. That winds up being a pretty big time commitment, being on-ice 4-5 times per week. Kid moves up to U15. As a first year kid they do not make the U15AA team (not unusual), so they drop down to rep hockey. But even at Tier 1 rep hockey they are one the ice twice - one practice and one game per week. Which is just fine for playing fun hockey, but for those kids who aspire to make the AA team the next year (or even try to make AAA) it almost certainly isn't enough, so they're scrambling to find different opportunities to get extra on-ice practices.

Again, not sure what the answer is, but it does feed straight back into the private hockey industry - and that's for kids who jump to fully private leagues as a result of being cut.

Most of making the team is done in the offseason. Kids come in after doing nothing all summer thinking that they are good enough. Generally speaking.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Most of making the team is done in the offseason. Kids come in after doing nothing all summer thinking that they are good enough. Generally speaking.

What should kids that age be doing in the offseason?