Columbus will "Not be the same team" in 2016/2017

[KallioWeHardlyKnewYe]

Been around these parts a long time and I have to say no issue consistently irritates me more than who is/isn't/should/shouldn't be chosen/voted/crowned/deposed as team captain and the believed impact that does/doesn't have on "the room," the fanbase and the perception around the league.

And I was very active here during the Doug MacLean years.

 

[Viqsi]

Been around these parts a long time and I have to say no issue consistently irritates me more than who is/isn't/should/shouldn't be chosen/voted/crowned/deposed as team captain and the believed impact that does/doesn't have on "the room," the fanbase and the perception around the league.

And I was very active here during the Doug MacLean years.

Hell ****ing Yes. Amen to that. You get a cookie.

 

[CBJx614]

A couple of things:

1. We don't know what Foligno's value is. It is likely that it was never as high as want the majority thought it was. We suspect it's low, which leads to point #2
2. Literally no benefit? That is pretty short sighted. Cap relief alone is a benefit.

We have some trash contracts on this team and this one is right toward the top. For that cash and term off of a breakout season should have eliminated the need for a NMC/NTC.

Last season was actually a return to normal for Foligno. If you get the chance moving him just to get rid of the contract might well be worth it. Will he stay at his career norms or trend back to that breakout season? The former is more likely.

Your talk of JK taking a hit and looking stupid - I hate to tell you this but the team has already has a few scars from his mismanagement. The best thing he could do might be to start to cut some losses and move on. Wasn't that the point of the thread? This team won't look the same?

That's IF you can dump him for picks/ prospects or a less of a contract..

And I really don't care if im sounding stupid, its my opinion, don't like it? Then you don't need to say anything about it, plenty of others have ignored it.

 

[blahblah]

That's IF you can dump him for picks/ prospects or a less of a contract...

The whole premise of my post was cap relief, so yeah your response really has absolutely no point.

If you can't get cap relief or get an upgrade by moving him, there isn't a point. If it is your premise that we can't move him without one of those then, yes, you are correct. There wouldn't be a point. Since that wasn't my premise and you know it, your post did reach a new level of inconsequence. I should have simply responded with "No **** Sherlock" or "No duh".

Also, man up and don't cry if someone wants to debate your position. I'm tired of people thinking that public forums are simply a place for people to say whatever they want without consequence.

 

[major major]

I agree with you, personally I hope they find a way to move his contract . It was entirely forced to name him the C of the Jackets , and he was near invisible last year both on the ice, and in the media . The jackets need to sell an identity to get the casual fan re engaged , and I wouldn't be surprised if they moved Foligno, just so they don't have to deal with the distraction or fallout in the room of stripping the C from him . Everyone knows they wanted Boone to be the captain. But with his injuries, etc, it just wasn't possible at the time . But he is what you want to sell as the identity of the franchise . Not to get the whole Foligno, and captain talk all drummed up again, just pointing out why I feel it's pretty likely he's moved , if someone will take his contract . We need to trim the fat , to be able to have room for upcoming contracts , and it will be a much easier sell to get someone to take Foligno, over let's say , Tyutin .

There isn't much truth in this paragraph. I don't know where to start when it's nearly 100% BS all the way through.

Foligno has been all over the media, maybe you haven't been paying attention. And if you think Foligno is invisible in the media I think you should wait to see how you feel if Jenner is captain. Reporters loved writing those pieces about Jenner's farmboy roots but I'm sure they're already tired of his "give 110%" interviews. The write-ups are going to be 50% Torts quotes, 10% Dubi, 10% Foligno, and 30% rookies.

Foligno gives a real interview and he has as much claim on hard-working hard-hitting identity as Jenner does. He's very popular with just about everybody, including most of the fanbase except for a few who hate his contract. To state the obvious, if Foligno was making Boone Jenner money he would be a lot more popular on these boards. His year, for how bad it was, wasn't worse than Jenner's the year prior.

 

[blahblah]

For those hesitant about trading Bob, moving Andersen sure didn't bother the Ducks and Gibson had a far superior team in front of him.

 

[Crede777]

For those hesitant about trading Bob, moving Andersen sure didn't bother the Ducks and Gibson had a far superior team in front of him.

I love Bob and think he's an elite goaltender, but given his injuries and cap hit I think the team needs to at least explore moving him.

Then again, I also bet they couldn't if they wanted to. Calgary was named as a possible fit but I don't think they'd go for it given his salary.

 

[KallioWeHardlyKnewYe]

For those hesitant about trading Bob, moving Andersen sure didn't bother the Ducks and Gibson had a far superior team in front of him.

They have to explore it at least. (I'm sure they are).

 

[KJ Dangler]

There isn't much truth in this paragraph. I don't know where to start when it's nearly 100% BS all the way through.

Foligno has been all over the media, maybe you haven't been paying attention. And if you think Foligno is invisible in the media I think you should wait to see how you feel if Jenner is captain. Reporters loved writing those pieces about Jenner's farmboy roots but I'm sure they're already tired of his "give 110%" interviews. The write-ups are going to be 50% Torts quotes, 10% Dubi, 10% Foligno, and 30% rookies.

Foligno gives a real interview and he has as much claim on hard-working hard-hitting identity as Jenner does. He's very popular with just about everybody, including most of the fanbase except for a few who hate his contract. To state the obvious, if Foligno was making Boone Jenner money he would be a lot more popular on these boards. His year, for how bad it was, wasn't worse than Jenner's the year prior.

No offense, but its not Bs, all the way thru. I could point to multiple articles written last year, where Torts questioned the lack of leadership in the room.

Columbus Blue Jackets head coach John Tortorella says he spends too much time in the room. What he means by that is that a lack of leadership, a lack of accountability amongst the players on his team, has left him in a position where he has to police them to a greater extent than he has in the past during prior NHL stops. Tortorella went in on the team to the media Sunday, just prior to the Blue Jackets' loss to the Florida Panthers, suggesting that the lack of leadership was due to a mental weakness that permeated the locker room.

Shortly thereafter, Columbus captain Nick Foligno met with reporters and addressed the comments by his bench boss. Foligno's assessment? Tortorella is welcome to his opinion, though Foligno doesn't agree with him that the team has "nothing" in terms of leadership.

http://www.hngn.com/articles/164608...ortorellas-comments-on-lack-of-leadership.htm

Tortorella, still stewing over a 5-2 loss Saturday at Tampa Bay, said the Blue Jackets have a leadership void among their top players and that the time had come for him to rely on younger players to fill it.
“We implode,†Tortorella said of a second period against the Lightning in which the Jackets’ 2-1 lead turned into a 4-2 deficit.
“Let’s call a spade a spade. It’s embarrassing, and that’s what we are. I’m not going to tiptoe around here. That’s how we play right now, and I think I’m going to need to depend on the kids to get us out of this because I’m not getting squat from the top players as far as that stuff.â€

http://bluejacketsxtra.dispatch.com/content/stories/2015/12/28/blue-jackets-sidebar.html

And even when Torts tried to quash the talk of Foligno being replaced as captain, here was response.....

Beyond Foligno’s struggles on the ice, Tortorella has continually questioned the leadership in the dressing room, making a difficult question a fair one.
Will Foligno be the captain next season?
Tortorella once stripped the captain’s "C" from Vinny Lecavalier in Tampa Bay, and he noted on Friday that “we went on to win the Stanley Cup.â€
“Nick is our captain,†Tortorella said. “There has been zero discussion of (changing captains). But I know our room has to change.

That was on April 2nd. So please dont tell me they are thrilled from what they are getting at the captain position. Torts tried to double down, and give him a vote of coinfidence, but if the jackets have the ability to move Foligno, and his overpaid contract, and its been noted all year they werent thrilled with the leadership they were getting, you cant tell me this may be part of the consideration of whether to move him or not.

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

To state the obvious, if Foligno was making Boone Jenner money he would be a lot more popular on these boards. His year, for how bad it was, wasn't worse than Jenner's the year prior.

Once again the points don't matter. But when your captain does not contribute to the play even as heavily as the eight most impactful forward it becomes a problem.

Sure Foligno can potentially score points in the future. But there is not much of a dent when compared with Blue Leader Hartnell for example.
I would rather shake the temple starting from the small and wide pillar.

 

[CBJx614]

The whole premise of my post was cap relief, so yeah your response really has absolutely no point.

If you can't get cap relief or get an upgrade by moving him, there isn't a point. If it is your premise that we can't move him without one of those then, yes, you are correct. There wouldn't be a point. Since that wasn't my premise and you know it, your post did reach a new level of inconsequence. I should have simply responded with "No **** Sherlock" or "No duh".

Also, man up and don't cry if someone wants to debate your position. I'm tired of people thinking that public forums are simply a place for people to say whatever they want without consequence.

Obviously you're going to shed cap, my whole point is you're not going to get fair value and Foligno holds more value then just being a cap dump.

 

[major major]

No offense, but its not Bs, all the way thru.

1. After Torts blamed the conditioning - which we have objective measurements of - I knew this guy was going to say all kinds of things, true and false. I welcome that, but don't be a dupe and believe everything he says.

2. Foligno is the point man, it doesn't mean he's solely responsible for revving the guys up. Dubi has shared in that role for years. Jenner would be doing that right now if he was that kind of person (reportedly, he is quiet).

3. When you go into the year with the D we had and then blame it on leadership? That's grasping at straws. The Jackets have been a hard working team since Foligno and Dubinsky arrived - the team is not as hard hitting as they were in the middle of the Richards era, but you ask around the league and they're still considered a hard working team. This year they were structurally not a good hockey team. You can't blame "late game collapses" or anything like that for our season. When you have the most defensive zone draws in the league you're going to lose most of your games.

 

[major major]

Once again the points don't matter.

I don't know what you're getting at here. As per his custom Foligno had the best possession stats on the roster, and Jenner was closer to the bottom.

 

[blahblah]

Obviously you're going to shed cap, my whole point is you're not going to get fair value and Foligno holds more value then just being a cap dump.

Market dictates value, not our perception as fans. Since cap space is at a premium, it holds great value when considering moving players. One could argue that just relieving his cap space has more value, long term, than the any asset returns.

As a fan I can also say that Foligno isn't worth his contract as well.

The reality is that this team had some real issues last season and Foligno was more of a problem than he was as part of the solution. That could be just the pressure of becoming the captain.

I understand that the team doesn't share my opinions, but I would be looking at moving the following contracts regardless of return.

Bob
Foligno
Savard (Return more of an issue)
Hartnell
Prout
______

The below are just "no duh"

Clarkson - I would actually include picks/prospects as long as they aren't top tier
Tyutin - Obvious buyout candidate
Campbell
Boll

The rest of the players can, at least, finish out their contracts as is the case of a C-Mac as an example. I would like to keep Jack Johnson as a veteran presence on the blue line.

 

[blahblah]

I don't know what you're getting at here. As per his custom Foligno had the best possession stats on the roster, and Jenner was closer to the bottom.

You know advanced stats are nice, but man they are just a crutch these days. Anyone watching the team knows that Jenner is a beast on the forecheck and is quite good in the defensive zone.

 

[Jackets16]

Can we change the title of this thread or make a Trade Rumors and Free Agency Thread?

 

[Jackets16]

I'd trade anyone over 25 who is making big money and/or has a ton of term on their contract. We need the cap space and we have young guys available. Now, some guys I would require more of a return than others, but they would all be made available.

 

[blahblah]

Can we change the title of this thread or make a Trade Rumors and Free Agency Thread?

Normally I would agree, but I haven't seen that much objectionable content in this thread.

 

[Jackets16]

Normally I would agree, but I haven't seen that much objectionable content in this thread.

Huh? I hadn't come to this thread in I don't know how long, because I didn't know this was what was being discussed. I also had been wanting a thread to talk about trade rumors/free agency. If I would have known that it was being discussed here, I would have read this thread earlier.

 

[DarkandStormy]

Bobrovsky now on TSN's trade list.

 

[Viqsi]

Market dictates value, not our perception as fans. Since cap space is at a premium, it holds great value when considering moving players. One could argue that just relieving his cap space has more value, long term, than the any asset returns.

As a fan I can also say that Foligno isn't worth his contract as well.

The reality is that this team had some real issues last season and Foligno was more of a problem than he was as part of the solution. That could be just the pressure of becoming the captain.

I understand that the team doesn't share my opinions, but I would be looking at moving the following contracts regardless of return.

Bob
Foligno
Savard (Return more of an issue)
Hartnell
Prout
______

The below are just "no duh"

Clarkson - I would actually include picks/prospects as long as they aren't top tier
Tyutin - Obvious buyout candidate
Campbell
Boll

The rest of the players can, at least, finish out their contracts as is the case of a C-Mac as an example. I would like to keep Jack Johnson as a veteran presence on the blue line.

I'm going to go ahead and assume that when you say "regardless of return" you actually have conditions on the return implied, such as "no similarly troubled contracts back". Because taken literally, that suggests that Prout for Dustin Brown would be A-OK.

The question then becomes - what are all the conditions in question, and do they make any such trade realistically feasible?

 

[KJ Dangler]

1. After Torts blamed the conditioning - which we have objective measurements of - I knew this guy was going to say all kinds of things, true and false. I welcome that, but don't be a dupe and believe everything he says.

2. Foligno is the point man, it doesn't mean he's solely responsible for revving the guys up. Dubi has shared in that role for years. Jenner would be doing that right now if he was that kind of person (reportedly, he is quiet).

3. When you go into the year with the D we had and then blame it on leadership? That's grasping at straws. The Jackets have been a hard working team since Foligno and Dubinsky arrived - the team is not as hard hitting as they were in the middle of the Richards era, but you ask around the league and they're still considered a hard working team. This year they were structurally not a good hockey team. You can't blame "late game collapses" or anything like that for our season. When you have the most defensive zone draws in the league you're going to lose most of your games.

Conditioning, absolutely was a huge issue with this team. Jarmo, and Jd can say all they want by nhl standards, etc, look at our starts under Richards for the past 3 years.. But Richards’ teams got off to slow starts every season: 5-12-4 in 2013, 6-10-3 in 2013-14 and 6-15-2 in 2014-15.

Here is Dubinsky on Torts level of conditioning....


Center Brandon Dubinsky has seen all of this before, of course. He played for Tortorella with the New York Rangers and said nothing has changed.
“The level he gets his teams to, it’s a level unlike anything I’ve see in the NHL,” Dubinsky said. “I don’t mean that as a knock on any of the other coaches I’ve had, it’s just the truth.
“He wants his team to be in the best shape of any team in the NHL. From my experience with him in New York, we felt invincible. Our starts (to the season) were always strong, and I think it had a lot to do with us being in better shape than anybody else.”
Tortorella often talks about wanting his teams to play with swagger. But that’s hard to do if you’re gasping for air after long shifts.

“(Conditioning) is a huge part of it,” he said. “I’m not going to say we’re there. This team is not there.
“I don’t want to be negative about it, but I want to be honest with you. I’m looking short term here, but I also look long term at what I think are some of the improvements we need to make.”

General manager Jarmo Kekalainen has said that the club’s testing numbers on the day before training camp did not set off any alarms, but Tortorella might use a different metric.
“Torts’ training camps are almost all straight conditioning, not teaching,” Dubinsky said. “He wants to win, but I don’t think he’d (care) if we went 1-7 in the preseason.
“The goal of conditioning is to practice hard enough so that the games are easy.”
And, yes, Tortorella — while keeping a firm eye on today — already is looking forward to training camp 2016.
On Tuesday, he spoke of using both rinks in Nationwide Arena to get a “chunk of flesh” from players.
“It’s going to be a very physical camp,” Tortorella said. “The mindset … we used to talk about it in New York, that in the third periods we knew we were going to be stronger.
“I think we have some work to do at that here but I don’t think you can do it during the season. It’s very difficult.”

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Can we change the title of this thread or make a Trade Rumors and Free Agency Thread?

Three more posts till "Offseason Thread" -- and you see how I'm helping with this one?

 

[major major]

You know advanced stats are nice, but man they are just a crutch these days. Anyone watching the team knows that Jenner is a beast on the forecheck and is quite good in the defensive zone.

I think some of us watch more closely than others.

Jenner did not have a good year defensively. He was missing assignments and drifting up ice at times.

I go through after games and look at the goals against to see what broke (and many times write it up here, you might have noticed). Plenty of times it was Jenner.

I use stats in arguments because they're better than saying "of course he's good", but in this case they line up pretty well with watching the way they play D.

 

[major major]

Conditioning, absolutely was a huge issue with this team. Jarmo, and Jd can say all they want by nhl standards, etc, look at our starts under Richards for the past 3 years.. But Richards’ teams got off to slow starts every season: 5-12-4 in 2013, 6-10-3 in 2013-14 and 6-15-2 in 2014-15.

Here is Dubinsky on Torts level of conditioning....


Center Brandon Dubinsky has seen all of this before, of course. He played for Tortorella with the New York Rangers and said nothing has changed.
“The level he gets his teams to, it’s a level unlike anything I’ve see in the NHL,†Dubinsky said. “I don’t mean that as a knock on any of the other coaches I’ve had, it’s just the truth.
“He wants his team to be in the best shape of any team in the NHL. From my experience with him in New York, we felt invincible. Our starts (to the season) were always strong, and I think it had a lot to do with us being in better shape than anybody else.â€
Tortorella often talks about wanting his teams to play with swagger. But that’s hard to do if you’re gasping for air after long shifts.

“(Conditioning) is a huge part of it,†he said. “I’m not going to say we’re there. This team is not there.
“I don’t want to be negative about it, but I want to be honest with you. I’m looking short term here, but I also look long term at what I think are some of the improvements we need to make.â€

General manager Jarmo Kekalainen has said that the club’s testing numbers on the day before training camp did not set off any alarms, but Tortorella might use a different metric.
“Torts’ training camps are almost all straight conditioning, not teaching,†Dubinsky said. “He wants to win, but I don’t think he’d (care) if we went 1-7 in the preseason.
“The goal of conditioning is to practice hard enough so that the games are easy.â€
And, yes, Tortorella — while keeping a firm eye on today — already is looking forward to training camp 2016.
On Tuesday, he spoke of using both rinks in Nationwide Arena to get a “chunk of flesh†from players.
“It’s going to be a very physical camp,†Tortorella said. “The mindset … we used to talk about it in New York, that in the third periods we knew we were going to be stronger.
“I think we have some work to do at that here but I don’t think you can do it during the season. It’s very difficult.â€

Believe me, I've read it. Nothing that goes through the Dispatch escapes me.

I see that as an endorsement of Tortorella's approach getting his teams to a superlative level of conditioning. I'm looking forward to see it. But it doesn't mean the team had poor or below average conditioning this year. They have tests for these things, and I'd sooner trust those results. I watched the 0-8 start and saw a team slow down game by game - they were exhausted, mentally and physically, because they never had the puck. It didn't come from being below average in pure endurance.