Line Combos: Colorado Avalanche/Patrick Roy - System Analysis

[RoyIsALegend]

They haven't had 3 years to get the system down... the system has change ~9-10 times over the past 3 years. A serious argument can be made that Roy's flexibility in systems is part of the shot and breakout issues.

Who's fault is it that the system has changed 9 or 10 times over that period of time? We've had the same coach all that time. Regardless, all of these 9 or 10 systems resulted in us getting outplayed worse than any team in the league. Consistently.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

I feel Roy's flexibility in systems has a lot to do with the roster he has. If he had a huge net crashing team I'm sure we would be firing a lot more garbage at the net and driving for rebounds. Instead we have some high end talent so we go for quality shots instead of quantity. Same thing on the defensive end. The Beauchemin's, Stuart's, Guenin's and Holden's have forced us to be a shot blocking/dump it out of trouble team as opposed to a talented "back off, possess the puck and break out" type of team.

Like I said before, I don't always agree with Roy. I do however think he's done a good job of using our system to get the best out of what we have. The way he's designed the lines and scratches on the other hand I've never been a fan of.

 

[Iceberg]

'If a player doesn't fit your scheme, something's wrong with it' - Wade Phillips

Different sports, but it applies.

 

[henchman21]

Who's fault is it that the system has changed 9 or 10 times over that period of time? We've had the same coach all that time. Regardless, all of these 9 or 10 systems resulted in us getting outplayed worse than any team in the league. Consistently.

I pointed to that in my post... I don't agree we have been outplayed worse than any team in the league though. The Avs are an average team... no better, no worse.

I said earlier that Winnipeg and Colorado are the polar opposites when it comes to system flexibility. Winnipeg is very strict and plays one way and one way only. There are pros and cons to that as we see. Colorado is probably the most flexible team in the league... there are pros and cons to that. Does Roy want to be flexible? Yeah I think he does. As flexible and evolving as they are? I don't think the signs point to that. Roy and Sakic want a certain identity and are working towards that... slowly. IMO there are a lot of patchwork things going on that eventually have to stop... when that point is, is a matter of debate.

 

[slobbergob]

The classis Barrie/EJ flick through the middle is the most frustrating thing this team does. Especially when most of the time there are simple 8-12 foot passes available with those players moving north. It hurts to watch that but I don't think that has anything to do with Roy's strategy. It's Brutes and EJ trying to be creative.

I don't think it's Roy's strategy, but a result of it. It's (generally) because they don't have another option. There's the odd time when it happens with little pressure, but for the most part they do it when the guy they're supposed to pass to is covered.

 

[tigervixxxen]

It's why I said to an extent it's about personnel. I get that they take responsibility for the guys they sign and put on the roster and it's not like a few different players magically makes them cycle the puck. But it's about how they are building the team and in large part they haven't had the defense they've wanted and that's something they can't go out and just but. They want to revamp the forwards and get in forwards who can protect the puck and play well defensively. When they are done results might still not be great but it will be what they intended at least. Roy also has said that they are making use of what they have too.

 

[Foppa2118]

So much talk about the breakout and shots against. How can you people not see that if you take out young Zadorov and Bigras short stints this year, every game for the last 3 years they've iced 4 out of 6 defenseman that either have low hockey IQ, or poor passing ability, or both. With teams so well coached. and every team so good, what kind of amazing breakout strategy do you think could make up for that?

Compound those problems from the 4 out of 6 defenseman, and many of those same guys also can't skate well, and are poor defensively. So they get hemmed in their own zone because they can't break up plays and get the puck back, and they and the rest of the team gets their energy sapped for the rest of the game.

Compound that with too many wingers who can't hang on to the puck, protect it, and both see and execute good passing plays against defenses the best we've ever seen in the NHL. A couple of them aging and can't skate well through the neutral zone forecheck every team implements.

The complaint about the forwards and D being so spread out on the breakout is an old one. It's not nearly the issue it used to be. Most breakouts Nate, or Dutchy, or Soda, or Mitchell, or Landy will take the puck around the middle of the ice near their blueline and skate it somewhere. They started using the middle of the ice much more to support the breakout after the their horrible start, and it helped tremendously.

It's completely ridiculous to think their style is to get outshot. You really think that's what Roy wanted? Ever? Or maybe that's how he's compensated for crap defenseman, by allowing themselves to bend but not break, and keep as many shots to the outside as possible? You think the defenseman this team has had is capable of preventing shots the traditional way?

Guenin, Redmond, Bodnarchuk, Holden, Barrie, Benoit, Hunwick, Elliott, Stollery, Ryan Wilson. All these guys are extremely poor defensively. Then there's Hejda and Stuart as the only other guys who were capable of playing decent defensively, but weren't the most mobile, and forced to play much higher in the depth chart then they should have.

EJ and Beauch are the only guys in the last three years that have come anywhere close to holding their own defensively in the role they were asked to play. It doesn't matter what kind of system you have, you're not getting anything done with that many guys who can't defend.

When Zadorov and Bigras start to take over and hold their own, and they bring in some wingers with quicker legs and better hands to replace Iggy and Tangs, then you can judge Roy's system. They'll break up plays in their own end better, they'll break the puck out better, they'll spend more time in the O zone, they'll get up in games more often and force the opposition to play out of their comfort zone and make mistakes. That's how good teams win.

This is not Roy's system, this is his "how do we not lose every single game with these players while we're building the team" system.

 

[slobbergob]

So much talk about the breakout and shots against. How can you people not see that if you take out young Zadorov and Bigras short stints this year, every game for the last 3 years they've iced 4 out of 6 defenseman that either have low hockey IQ, or poor passing ability, or both. With teams so well coached. and every team so good, what kind of amazing breakout strategy do you think could make up for that?

Compound those problems from the 4 out of 6 defenseman, and many of those same guys also can't skate well, and are poor defensively. So they get hemmed in their own zone because they can't break up plays and get the puck back, and they and the rest of the team gets their energy sapped for the rest of the game.

Compound that with too many wingers who can't hang on to the puck, protect it, and both see and execute good passing plays against defenses the best we've ever seen in the NHL. A couple of them aging and can't skate well through the neutral zone forecheck every team implements.

The complaint about the forwards and D being so spread out on the breakout is an old one. It's not nearly the issue it used to be. Most breakouts Nate, or Dutchy, or Soda, or Mitchell, or Landy will take the puck around the middle of the ice near their blueline and skate it somewhere. They started using the middle of the ice much more to support the breakout after the their horrible start, and it helped tremendously.

It's completely ridiculous to think their style is to get outshot. You really think that's what Roy wanted? Ever? Or maybe that's how he's compensated for crap defenseman, by allowing themselves to bend but not break, and keep as many shots to the outside as possible? You think the defenseman this team has had is capable of preventing shots the traditional way?

Guenin, Redmond, Bodnarchuk, Holden, Barrie, Benoit, Hunwick, Elliott, Stollery, Ryan Wilson. All these guys are extremely poor defensively. Then there's Hejda and Stuart as the only other guys who were capable of playing decent defensively, but weren't the most mobile, and forced to play much higher in the depth chart then they should have.

EJ and Beauch are the only guys in the last three years that have come anywhere close to holding their own defensively in the role they were asked to play. It doesn't matter what kind of system you have, you're not getting anything done with that many guys who can't defend.

When Zadorov and Bigras start to take over and hold their own, and they bring in some wingers with quicker legs and better hands to replace Iggy and Tangs, then you can judge Roy's system. They'll break up plays in their own end better, they'll break the puck out better, they'll spend more time in the O zone, they'll get up in games more often and force the opposition to play out of their comfort zone and make mistakes. That's how good teams win.

This is not Roy's system, this is his "how do we not lose every single game with these players while we're building the team" system.

That sounds like a whole bunch of scapegoating. Toronto has a much worse defensive core than us, and they break the puck out fine. I agree we iced a lot of subpar defenders, but a smarter coach would have limited the amount of 100 ft passes they attempted. Make short, concise passes.

Also, I'm not talking about their in zone defense. I'm talking about their ability to turn defense into offense. Right now, there's 4 players that can make a breakout pass with varying degree of success, but they are being held back by having to make long passes, or thread the needle.

We have a lot of top end talent that isn't being properly utilized because it's spending so much time trying to get out of it's zone.

The fact that you think Brad Stuart was capable defensively actually hurts me. This is not 1999 any more. To be capable defensively, you have to be able to transition. I don't care how many obstruction penalties you can get away with, or how many times you hit someone, if you can't retrieve the puck because of it, and then move it to the forwards, you're not good defensively.

No one thinks he wants to get outshot drastically. Most people know he's comfortable with giving up outside shots. The problem is outside shots turn into inside shots and rebounds very quickly, and when you spend all the time in your zone just passively letting other teams shoot, you're not playing in the offensive zone, which compounds the issue of being outshot.

I think Roy does a lot of good things (motivating, developing, Pulling the goalie early, giving his players offensive freedom, and sometimes adjusting), but I think his breakouts and his style of passive defense and let the goalie clean up the mess needs to stop. Getting better defensemen will obviously help, but so would coaching better.

 

[Foppa2118]

That sounds like a whole bunch of scapegoating. Toronto has a much worse defensive core than us, and they break the puck out fine. I agree we iced a lot of subpar defenders, but a smarter coach would have limited the amount of 100 ft passes they attempted. Make short, concise passes.

Also, I'm not talking about their in zone defense. I'm talking about their ability to turn defense into offense. Right now, there's 4 players that can make a breakout pass with varying degree of success, but they are being held back by having to make long passes, or thread the needle.

We have a lot of top end talent that isn't being properly utilized because it's spending so much time trying to get out of it's zone.

The fact that you think Brad Stuart was capable defensively actually hurts me. This is not 1999 any more. To be capable defensively, you have to be able to transition. I don't care how many obstruction penalties you can get away with, or how many times you hit someone, if you can't retrieve the puck because of it, and then move it to the forwards, you're not good defensively.

No one thinks he wants to get outshot drastically. Most people know he's comfortable with giving up outside shots. The problem is outside shots turn into inside shots and rebounds very quickly, and when you spend all the time in your zone just passively letting other teams shoot, you're not playing in the offensive zone, which compounds the issue of being outshot.

I think Roy does a lot of good things (motivating, developing, Pulling the goalie early, giving his players offensive freedom, and sometimes adjusting), but I think his breakouts and his style of passive defense and let the goalie clean up the mess needs to stop. Getting better defensemen will obviously help, but so would coaching better.

None of this explains how you expect them to limit shots with a defense consisting of at least four of Guenin, Redmond, Bodnarchuk, Holden, Barrie, Benoit, Hunwick, Elliott, Stollery, Ryan Wilson, plus Hejda and Stuart playing more than they should, every night for the last three years. Draw up a system that turns those guys into good defensively.

Or break out of their zone as well as other teams when Barrie and EJ are the only two defenseman in the last three years that have the skill set and smarts to consistently do that. Even EJ isn't great at it, he's just good. He's great when he gets on his horse and powers his way in, but he only does that once or twice a game.

 

[slobbergob]

None of this explains how you expect them to limit shots with a defense consisting of at least four of Guenin, Redmond, Bodnarchuk, Holden, Barrie, Benoit, Hunwick, Elliott, Stollery, Ryan Wilson, plus Hejda and Stuart playing more than they should, every night for the last three years. Draw up a system that turns those guys into good defensively.

Or break out of their zone as well as other teams when Barrie and EJ are the only two defenseman in the last three years that have the skill set and smarts to consistently do that in the last two years. Even EJ isn't great at it, he's just good. He's great when he gets on his horse and powers his way in, but he only does that once or twice a game.

You limit shots by retrieving the puck and moving it out of your zone. You said yourself "they play to bend not break" which is literally "give up as many low percentage shots as possible". When you play to bend, you're not really trying to limit shots, just rebounds and high percentage chances (which they don't do either by the way).

Hockey is a game of triangles. Keep them tight, instead of the Bermuda triangle we employ a lot of the time. When this team is breaking out convincingly, which we have done before, they are doing it with short passes or by skating it out.

I'm not even talking about the last 3 years really. I'm talking about this year. This year, they have 5, count 'em, 5 defensemen that can make a breakout pass. EJ, Barrie, Beauch, Bigras, and Holden can all do it, so why don't they?

And honestly, if EJ and Barrie skated the puck out more, that would be a huge bonus in my books. I don't really care how the puck gets out, as long as it does and with control.

I also think the problem isn't as much on the defense as it is the forwards. You have to put yourself in a good position to retrieve the pass, and a lot of the times, they aren't.

 

[Foppa2118]

You limit shots by retrieving the puck and moving it out of your zone. You said yourself "they play to bend not break" which is literally "give up as many low percentage shots as possible". When you play to bend, you're not really trying to limit shots, just rebounds and high percentage chances (which they don't do either by the way).

Hockey is a game of triangles. Keep them tight, instead of the Bermuda triangle we employ a lot of the time. When this team is breaking out convincingly, which we have done before, they are doing it with short passes or by skating it out.

I'm not even talking about the last 3 years really. I'm talking about this year. This year, they have 5, count 'em, 5 defensemen that can make a breakout pass. EJ, Barrie, Beauch, Bigras, and Holden can all do it, so why don't they?

And honestly, if EJ and Barrie skated the puck out more, that would be a huge bonus in my books. I don't really care how the puck gets out, as long as it does and with control.

I also think the problem isn't as much on the defense as it is the forwards. You have to put yourself in a good position to retrieve the pass, and a lot of the times, they aren't.

This is all just how good defenseman play defense. Not how to turn bad defenseman into good defensively.

As for this year, Holden has never been a breakout passer. He's been terrible at it actually, constantly sending passes off the mark. Beauch is just ok at this because he keeps it simple, but it's not his strength at 35 years old. EJ as I already said is good but not that great. He's never been a guy that makes a bunch of stretch passes right on the tape, and he circles back in his own zone a lot getting himself in trouble occasionally.

Barrie really is the only guy that can do this at a high level consistently. It's not enough as a D unit to do what you're expecting them to.

Bigras is 20 years old and has played 16 games. He and Zadorov will give the team hopefully at least 4 out of 6 defenseman that are capable defensively, and can break out of their zone well consistently. Then they'll be the team we want them to be. When they have those four, then you can judge the effectiveness of Roy's "system."


Right Now (not inlcuding the 20 year old newcomer)

Good defensively - EJ and Beauch
Good on the breakout - EJ and Barrie

Building Towards

Good defensively - EJ, Beauch, Bigras, Zadorov
Good on the breakout - EJ, Barrie, Bigras, Zadorov

 

[tigervixxxen]

Well there's two sides to this. The a) who wants to be outshot and outplayed and b) who gets outshot and outplayed and doesn't do anything to change it. I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle. I believe part of it is the way Roy wants to play, creative offense and transition game, keep shots to the outside. I don't think this team will EVER pass the Corsi acceptance test. They don't cycle, they don't have the philosophy to take shots from everywhere. Obviously possession needs to get better and it will with continued improvements but part of it is wishing for something that won't happen. A different system isn't exactly better either, might just be different in other areas. I remember hearing so much about how the old dump and chase system didn't benefit the players and the talent they that. EJ said all he was asked to do was play chip it up the wall hockey. So there's pros and cons to any system that is in place. The grass might be greener, it might not. But like everything, I'm willing to see the entire plan come to fruition before judging.

 

[slobbergob]

This is all just how good defenseman play defense. Not how to turn bad defenseman into good defensively.

As for this year, Holden has never been a breakout passer. He's been terrible at it actually, constantly sending passes off the mark. Beauch is just ok at this because he keeps it simple, but it's not his strength at 35 years old. EJ as I already said is good but not that great. He's never been a guy that makes a bunch of stretch passes right on the tape, and he circles back in his own zone a lot getting himself in trouble occasionally.

Barrie really is the only guy that can do this at a high level consistently. It's not enough as a D unit to do what you're expecting them to.

Bigras is 20 years old and has played 16 games. He and Zadorov will give the team hopefully at least 4 out of 6 defenseman that are capable defensively, and can break out of their zone well consistently. Then they'll be the team we want them to be. When they have those four, then you can judge the effectiveness of Roy's "system."

I disagree. I think we have a large enough sample size of Roy's system to know it's not just the players.

Holden can't make long breakout passes. He absolutely can make basic passes. If that is the case though, why does it seem like Holden is often the one behind the net setting up the breakout if he can't do it?

I'm not understanding the "this is not how to turn bad defensemen . . ." quote. My whole point is that these defensemen are not playing up to the level they are capable of, because of Roy's breakout system. I'm not specifically talking about how they play in their zone. I'm talking about how they move from their zone to the neutral zone and then to the offensive zone. This is the major problem. If our team is so bad defensively, like you say, maybe we should try and limit how much time they spend in their own zone, instead of "bending".

Roy's defensive system of allowing outside shots and gobbling up rebounds and lose pucks could, in theory, work, and with Varly could work really well. But it requires them to be able to transition after they gobble it up.

I think people are a lot more comfortable blaming this group of players than they are blaming franchise great Patrick Roy. Again, I think he does a lot of very good things, but his breakout system isn't one of them, and a fix would make us look like a much better team.

 

[henchman21]

I think people are a lot more comfortable blaming this group of players than they are blaming franchise great Patrick Roy. Again, I think he does a lot of very good things, but his breakout system isn't one of them, and a fix would make us look like a much better team.

What specific changes need to be made?

 

[Foppa2118]

I disagree. I think we have a large enough sample size of Roy's system to know it's not just the players.

Holden can't make long breakout passes. He absolutely can make basic passes. If that is the case though, why does it seem like Holden is often the one behind the net setting up the breakout if he can't do it?

I'm not understanding the "this is not how to turn bad defensemen . . ." quote. My whole point is that these defensemen are not playing up to the level they are capable of, because of Roy's breakout system. I'm not specifically talking about how they play in their zone. I'm talking about how they move from their zone to the neutral zone and then to the offensive zone. This is the major problem. If our team is so bad defensively, like you say, maybe we should try and limit how much time they spend in their own zone, instead of "bending".

Roy's defensive system of allowing outside shots and gobbling up rebounds and lose pucks could, in theory, work, and with Varly could work really well. But it requires them to be able to transition after they gobble it up.

I think people are a lot more comfortable blaming this group of players than they are blaming franchise great Patrick Roy. Again, I think he does a lot of very good things, but his breakout system isn't one of them, and a fix would make us look like a much better team.

The first part is the crux of where we disagree. Your opinion is that they're capable of playing better in these areas. I don't think they are. I think actually him and Tourigny/Farrish have managed to get a hell of a lot out of guys like Holden and Guenin the last couple years. They likely never would have been in the NHL for another organization.

The others like Redmond and Bod simply don't have the vision to make the correct plays consistently at the NHL level, and they're never gonna be strong defensively. They can skate, and play hard, but there's only so much they can do at this level. Hence making them bend but not break.

In answer to the second part, because they're not good enough to. That's why Roy has said about three times lately that they don't have the personnel to be a strong possession team right now, so they have to approach the game differently.

Same goes for their approach defensively.

 

[slobbergob]

What specific changes need to be made?

Honestly, I've said it like 3 times. Play tighter. The centre should be within 20 ft of the 1st winger, with the weak side winger somewhere around the middle of his half of the ice. If the other team throws a 2nd forecheck at us, the defense should be using their partner more and swinging it to the weak side winger.

A lot of the times, if we're breaking out on the left side, the RW is all the way on his boards by the blueline, the centre is literally in the centre of the ice, somewhere between the hashmarks and the blueline, and the LW is on the boards.

Just curious, what do you think our actual breakout plan is?

 

[slobbergob]

The first part is the crux of where we disagree. Your opinion is that they're capable of playing better in these areas. I don't think they are. I think actually him and Tourigny/Farrish have managed to get a hell of a lot out of guys like Holden and Guenin the last couple years. They likely never would have been in the NHL for another organization.

The others like Redmond and Bod simply don't have the vision to make the correct plays consistently at the NHL level, and they're never gonna be strong defensively. They can skate, and play hard, but there's only so much they can do at this level. Hence making them bend but not break.

In answer to the second part, because they're not good enough to. That's why Roy has said about three times lately that they don't have the personnel to be a strong possession team right now, so they have to approach the game differently.

Same goes for their approach defensively.

I very much agree with the bolded, although I think Holden is a serviceable bottom pairing defensemen. He's kind of the definition of playing over his head.

I have a feeling even with Bigras and Zadorov developed where we'd hope they become, a lot of the same problems will be here.

One of the things I've loved in Bigras' game is his ability to make the simple pass, when when pressured, so I do think a great defensive core can make up for some inefficiencies in the system, I just don't know how much that can be expected to happen.

 

[freeboy]

with quicker legs and better hands to replace Iggy and Tangs
ok no quicker legs
these guys have great hands... asking for better is like asking for another Grettz

 

[Foppa2118]

with quicker legs and better hands to replace Iggy and Tangs
ok no quicker legs
these guys have great hands... asking for better is like asking for another Grettz

Tangs has good hands to play the way they need. Iggy has great shooters hands and can make good passes, but he can't hold on to the puck long, and stickhandle, and help play a possession game. Neither have the legs to do it.

 

[McMetal]

I don't have a problem with his lack of respect for Corsi. More low-percentage shots won't help the offense. What I do have problems with is his lack of nerdy systems acumen. Especially with breakouts and power plays, he's unable to consistently get anything going there, and when something's not working, it goes on for 5-10 games longer than it should.

I'm willing to acknowledge that he does a lot of good things with personnel management and in the locker room. But he at least needs an assistant coach who's a systems geek and can put something better together so Roy can continue to focus on what he's good at and fill the holes in his abilities. Hell, Mike Yeo is available now.

 

[Drury_Sakic]

Roy has done a ton with nothing at times, so I give him credit for that.

But the amount of times our star young players commit a major error breaking out of the zone is disproportionately high.. (clearing the puck out of the zone directly up center ice to the other team, not clearing the puck hard enough up the boards, getting caught at our own blueline and turning it over, failing to dump it into the opposing zone properly, bad breakout passes, ext) ..and that comes down to either a coach that has not been able to break them of the habit/teach them, OR to those players just being dumb as rocks.....and I don't think that Lando, Mac, and Duchene are stupid.....thus...

Players trained outside of the Avs development system are SOOOO much better at clearing the zone/transition hockey. FB, Soda, Comeau, and Skille hands down make better choices with the puck when leaving the Avs zone (either via a clear or breaking out with the puck) than players trained in the Avs system.

That said, Roy and Sakic deserve credit for bringing in all 4 of those players, presumably to fix an issue they know exists....just as much as they deserve the blame for not being able to teach the Avs developed players how to clear the puck/break out with it.

 

[henchman21]

Honestly, I've said it like 3 times. Play tighter. The centre should be within 20 ft of the 1st winger, with the weak side winger somewhere around the middle of his half of the ice. If the other team throws a 2nd forecheck at us, the defense should be using their partner more and swinging it to the weak side winger.

A lot of the times, if we're breaking out on the left side, the RW is all the way on his boards by the blueline, the centre is literally in the centre of the ice, somewhere between the hashmarks and the blueline, and the LW is on the boards.

Just curious, what do you think our actual breakout plan is?

The forward low (not always broke out by position) is within 20' of the defensmen when the breakout starts... the center typically starts below the faceoff dots and circles either towards the middle or the same side boards (staying a bit away) depending on handedness. They are obviously instructed to be skating and accelerating at a decent clip when circling. If the defensemen doesn't hit them in stride and/or isn't skating themselves... the gap gets created. It isn't there in the beginning.

The same side winger depending on their handedness and that of the center can be the primary or secondary option depending on how they are running the read progression (lately it has been same-center-off side mostly). If the center doesn't get the puck on the curl the same side winger is supposed to curl to the faceoff dot and open up for a pass, or stay and open for the pass around the top of the circle then chip it to the center skating at the top.

The opposite winger is supposed to clear the zone once one of the other forwards gets the puck. If they don't, that winger is supposed to drift to the middle around the blue line.

The whole thing is predicated on precise timing... when they are trying to break out to the forwards, the defensemen have to make quick decisions and hit the forwards in stride, or get it to the wingers to chip to the forward with speed. If the defensemen just holds and doesn't skate, it takes a 10-15' pass and makes it a 30' pass. There is a reset to the break out that we see far, far too often when the defensemen curl back behind the net and start over... whenever Holden gets the puck this seems to happen.

If the defensemen skates the puck (Barrie is the only one who consistently does this... Bigras does to, but he isn't running the breakout most of the time) it maintains the gaps a lot better and the forwards are there for support and cutting the ice into 4 lanes.

The issues with the breakout stem from the defensemen not being able to walk and chew bubblegum at the same time consistently. Watch how little the defensemen skate and read the breakout... it is almost always glide and read which just creates separation. By the time they are ready to pass, the forwards are nearly to the blueline... so the reset happens.

The support between defense partner happens (they swing the puck to each other on resets a lot), but having Bodnarchuk or Holden running the breakout almost never works. Beauch is 50/50, but you'd much rather have EJ running it when he is on his game.

 

[slobbergob]

The forward low (not always broke out by position) is within 20' of the defensmen when the breakout starts... the center typically starts below the faceoff dots and circles either towards the middle or the same side boards (staying a bit away) depending on handedness. They are obviously instructed to be skating and accelerating at a decent clip when circling. If the defensemen doesn't hit them in stride and/or isn't skating themselves... the gap gets created. It isn't there in the beginning.

The same side winger depending on their handedness and that of the center can be the primary or secondary option depending on how they are running the read progression (lately it has been same-center-off side mostly). If the center doesn't get the puck on the curl the same side winger is supposed to curl to the faceoff dot and open up for a pass, or stay and open for the pass around the top of the circle then chip it to the center skating at the top.

The opposite winger is supposed to clear the zone once one of the other forwards gets the puck. If they don't, that winger is supposed to drift to the middle around the blue line.

The whole thing is predicated on precise timing... when they are trying to break out to the forwards, the defensemen have to make quick decisions and hit the forwards in stride, or get it to the wingers to chip to the forward with speed. If the defensemen just holds and doesn't skate, it takes a 10-15' pass and makes it a 30' pass. There is a reset to the break out that we see far, far too often when the defensemen curl back behind the net and start over... whenever Holden gets the puck this seems to happen.

If the defensemen skates the puck (Barrie is the only one who consistently does this... Bigras does to, but he isn't running the breakout most of the time) it maintains the gaps a lot better and the forwards are there for support and cutting the ice into 4 lanes.

The issues with the breakout stem from the defensemen not being able to walk and chew bubblegum at the same time consistently. Watch how little the defensemen skate and read the breakout... it is almost always glide and read which just creates separation. By the time they are ready to pass, the forwards are nearly to the blueline... so the reset happens.

The support between defense partner happens (they swing the puck to each other on resets a lot), but having Bodnarchuk or Holden running the breakout almost never works. Beauch is 50/50, but you'd much rather have EJ running it when he is on his game.

If what you're saying is the plan, then I've never seen it run consistently. Which, in the end, means it's not working, or it's too complex for our defense to run. This is what my main issue is. Everyone says we have such terrible defensemen that can't do anything, but 4 of them are legitimate top 6 defenders who can make successful breakout passes, even if they haven't been.

What you just described is a simple breakout that every one of these players have been doing since Atom, so why isn't it working then? You say the defense can't read the breakouts, or the opposition forechecking, then this is still a coaching issue. They've not been shown to "do this if this is happening".

 

[cgf]

What specific changes need to be made?

Well obviously the big change they should make is to be better at breaking out.

 

[GirardIsStupid]

Does anyone else notice that Colorado makes far too many long stretch passes? Colorado is a lot more effective when making short passes and limiting the amount of possession with the puck. Perfect example was the third goal against Montreal. Grigorenko made two short passes leading up to the goal by Iginla. Why doesn't Colorado do this more often? It'll offer a better chance at not turning the puck over and make teams think twice about playing so aggressively against them.