Coach Discussion: Coaching Thread II

[Daximus]

There is some truth to that. Although I think the Jets fanbase is generally accepting of whoever is presented to them.

I follow a bit of Oilers too, and they are far more hostile than us. Although right now it's mostly hot takes. As an outsider I watch them and I agree with nearly everything Tippet does, while the locals get up in arms

Even Tampa fans were frustrated and thought Cooper was a terrible coach until they won a Cup. Now they are right back to complaining about line matchups and how he handles the x's and o's. The coaches job is to take the brunt of the hate, so the players don't have to. When really the players should be getting the hate for performing poorly.

 

[DiggerD]

Then don't play them against McD's line. There are 3 other lines the Jets 4th line could play against and would have held their own. And sure, if Edmonton is only going to play 2 lines, you can still play your 4th when McD is taking a breather. I'm not saying double shift them, but they could have and should have played more than they did.

And just to add to my thoughts... maybe you don't play your 4th line in the OT, but if you played them a little more in the first 3 periods, your stars wouldn't have been as tired in the OT.

McDrai played 46 minutes! The Jets won because he hard-matched the Lowry line against the Oilers big guns, and let Scheifele and Dubois face the Nugent-Hopkins line. There was less than 60 min when McDavid wasn’t on the ice, and during that, the Jets were on the power play for 9 of it.
The fourth line had close to 8 min of 5-on-5, while the Oilers 4th had 9 min. I would rather see Dubois/Ehlers/Stastny or Connor/Scheifele/Wheeler get the bulk of those minutes against NH and Khaira

 

[FonRiesen]

I'm a card carrying member of not always being happy withbout coach and his tactics but I couldn't be happier that we won. I want to win first and foremost and IF the team keeps playing good hockey and winning that's all I care about.

Yup. There is a disconnect, though, between people who ONLY view past results and think it will create the same result in the future (even in different contexts). And some people are overly extrapolating and ONLY caring about the future to the detriment of being present (and maybe admitting some things are okay). We all have different biases like this (not limited to these examples), and it's healthy to hold space for others' arguments (which I think you do well, @surixon).

I'm happy to win. But I know that we still need to improve. Like @cbcwpg said, we could have run our 4th line more (in limited and wise contexts, like an O-zone faceoff after a McD shift) - they did fine in games 1 and 2 (it was CSW that actually had more issues defensively in game 3...). We got away with it because the Coilers were only running 2 lines of F & D. Won't work vs Colorado. But we're not there yet.

So while I'd normally agree that 4th lines should avoid matchups with a 1st line, I am strangely more confident with our current 4th line. Though to be fair, I was seeing Perrault out there, which I thought was good.

 

[Gm0ney]

The fancy stats say that Hellebuyck won the series and he probably did, but we've been asking Maurice for a long time to get the team to play a tighter game and not give up silly chances, to get his players engaged and to buy into the system, etc. That's exactly what happened here, so he's probably bought himself another year unless next season starts disastrously - it very well could given the division the team will be back in.

But the Jets were not good at locking down anything in this series. Hellebuyck was good at locking down the net. That's it. That's the whole story.

Playoffs vs. Regular Season 5v5 rates per 60:

	Playoffs	Rank (/16)	Regular Season	Rank (/31)
Shots against/60	31.36	9	29.32	17
Corsi against/60	65.05	14	54.86	21
xGA/60	2.64	13	2.41	27
SCA/60	31.59	15	27.6	26
HDCA/60	14.04	16	11.47	27
SV%	.9552	1	.9242	6

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The Jets were worse than in the regular season in every category, bottom 3 nearly everywhere - except #1 in goaltending. And this was against the Edmonton Oilers: two amazing forwards and then...nobody. RNH is their 3rd best forward in scoring and he had a grand total of 15 (!) non-powerplay points in the regular season. Their next best forward, Poolparty, put up 25 total points playing PP1 and on a line with McDavid all year. That team is a f***ing joke and they dominated the play in this series almost as badly as Colorado did over St. Louis! Yeah, we sure witnessed some masterful lockdown coaching over the last week...

But hey, if Hellebuyck can keep giving us .950 goaltending, I like our chances.

 

[surixon]

You see it in the NBA a lot now. Guys just sitting out games against bottom feeders completely, which can lead to loses. Show up for the big games, win, make the playoffs and then flip the switch. When all that fan care about is championships, why should the stars care about anything else?

Very true. It juat leads to some poor play in the regular season at times and that can be a piss off to fans like me who like watching entertaining hockey.

 

[Puckatron 3000]

But the Jets were not good at locking down anything in this series.

That's not what I saw.

Maybe I'm wrong. But the fact that we swept a team we had trouble against all year makes me think I'm not.

 

[tbcwpg]

But the Jets were not good at locking down anything in this series. Hellebuyck was good at locking down the net. That's it. That's the whole story.

Playoffs vs. Regular Season 5v5 rates per 60:

	Playoffs	Rank (/16)	Regular Season	Rank (/31)
Shots against/60	31.36	9	29.32	17
Corsi against/60	65.05	14	54.86	21
xGA/60	2.64	13	2.41	27
SCA/60	31.59	15	27.6	26
HDCA/60	14.04	16	11.47	27
SV%	.9552	1	.9242	6

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The Jets were worse than in the regular season in every category, bottom 3 nearly everywhere - except #1 in goaltending. And this was against the Edmonton Oilers: two amazing forwards and then...nobody. RNH is their 3rd best forward in scoring and he had a grand total of 15 (!) non-powerplay points in the regular season. Their next best forward, Poolparty, put up 25 total points playing PP1 and on a line with McDavid all year. That team is a f***ing joke and they dominated the play in this series almost as badly as Colorado did over St. Louis! Yeah, we sure witnessed some masterful lockdown coaching over the last week...

But hey, if Hellebuyck can keep giving us .950 goaltending, I like our chances.

They did seem better at preventing high danger chances from McDavid and Draisaitl, which is all you can really ask for - they're never going to stop them entirely. I'd love to see what the difference in those stats would be when McDavid and Draisaitl were on the ice compared to when they weren't. I don't have any numbers to back it up, but I was never concerned that the Oilers were going to score when McDavid and Draisaitl were not on the ice. If we're talking about coaching, it's a mystery why Tippett didn't split them up.

Yes, Hellebuyck was the major factor in the win, but Maurice did adjust from the regular season - its effectiveness is obviously up for debate but this is what people were asking for. I don't think you can stop the best player in the world and another top 5 player over a series so the containment strategy I think worked as well as it could given the personnel this team has.

 

[DiggerD]

Credit where credit is due. The Jets entered this series as extreme underdogs. Most ‘experts’ had the Oilers taking this series in 4 or 5 games, because they had the top 2 scorers in the NHL, and the top power play in the league. McDrai had manhandled the Jets in the regular season. The Jets were going into the playoffs after losing 9 of their last 11, and without 2/3 of their second line.
The coaching staff changed the team defense, and adjusted the lineup. They injected vesa and Toninato into the lineup to fill in for injuries, and adjusted matchups when needed. The vaunted Oiler PP dropped from 27.6% to 18%, and the Jets went from 23% to 30%.
The most important thing, the Jets swept the HEAVILY favoured Oilers. They neutralized the Art Ross winners of 4 of the past 5 years.

 

[supsens]

But the Jets were not good at locking down anything in this series. Hellebuyck was good at locking down the net. That's it. That's the whole story.

Playoffs vs. Regular Season 5v5 rates per 60:

	Playoffs	Rank (/16)	Regular Season	Rank (/31)
Shots against/60	31.36	9	29.32	17
Corsi against/60	65.05	14	54.86	21
xGA/60	2.64	13	2.41	27
SCA/60	31.59	15	27.6	26
HDCA/60	14.04	16	11.47	27
SV%	.9552	1	.9242	6

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The Jets were worse than in the regular season in every category, bottom 3 nearly everywhere - except #1 in goaltending. And this was against the Edmonton Oilers: two amazing forwards and then...nobody. RNH is their 3rd best forward in scoring and he had a grand total of 15 (!) non-powerplay points in the regular season. Their next best forward, Poolparty, put up 25 total points playing PP1 and on a line with McDavid all year. That team is a f***ing joke and they dominated the play in this series almost as badly as Colorado did over St. Louis! Yeah, we sure witnessed some masterful lockdown coaching over the last week...

But hey, if Hellebuyck can keep giving us .950 goaltending, I like our chances.

To be fair playing against mcdavid every other shift would damage any teams fancy stats.

 

[Channelcat]

McDrai played 46 minutes! The Jets won because he hard-matched the Lowry line against the Oilers big guns, and let Scheifele and Dubois face the Nugent-Hopkins line. There was less than 60 min when McDavid wasn’t on the ice, and during that, the Jets were on the power play for 9 of it.
The fourth line had close to 8 min of 5-on-5, while the Oilers 4th had 9 min. I would rather see Dubois/Ehlers/Stastny or Connor/Scheifele/Wheeler get the bulk of those minutes against NH and Khaira

I'd be tempted to swap Perrault and PLD and then actually play that 4th line. At least 12,13 minutes or so.

 

[Gm0ney]

They did seem better at preventing high danger chances from McDavid and Draisaitl, which is all you can really ask for - they're never going to stop them entirely. I'd love to see what the difference in those stats would be when McDavid and Draisaitl were on the ice compared to when they weren't. I don't have any numbers to back it up, but I was never concerned that the Oilers were going to score when McDavid and Draisaitl were not on the ice. If we're talking about coaching, it's a mystery why Tippett didn't split them up.

Yes, Hellebuyck was the major factor in the win, but Maurice did adjust from the regular season - its effectiveness is obviously up for debate but this is what people were asking for. I don't think you can stop the best player in the world and another top 5 player over a series so the containment strategy I think worked as well as it could given the personnel this team has.

Oilers with McD and Drai on the ice 5v5:

	With McD+ Drai	w/o McD+ Drai
TOI	48:25	172:13
SF/60	49.57	27.18
CF/60	85.51	60.97
xGF/60	4.31	2.25
SCF/60	42.13	28.92
HDCF/60	29.74	10.10
OnIceSH%	5.00%	3.85%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Even if we take McD and Drai out of the equation, the Jets are still ranked in the bottom half of playoff teams. Shots against improves - 27.18 is quite good (getting lots of blocks). Corsi-against of 60.97 is worse than the regular season. xGA improves (2.25 vs the Ahlolilers, 2.41 regular season). SCA worse, HDCA better.

 

[cbcwpg]

Yup. There is a disconnect, though, between people who ONLY view past results and think it will create the same result in the future (even in different contexts). And some people are overly extrapolating and ONLY caring about the future to the detriment of being present (and maybe admitting some things are okay). We all have different biases like this (not limited to these examples), and it's healthy to hold space for others' arguments (which I think you do well, @surixon).

I'm happy to win. But I know that we still need to improve. Like @cbcwpg said, we could have run our 4th line more (in limited and wise contexts, like an O-zone faceoff after a McD shift) - they did fine in games 1 and 2 (it was CSW that actually had more issues defensively in game 3...). We got away with it because the Coilers were only running 2 lines of F & D. Won't work vs Colorado. But we're not there yet.

So while I'd normally agree that 4th lines should avoid matchups with a 1st line, I am strangely more confident with our current 4th line. Though to be fair, I was seeing Perrault out there, which I thought was good.

Game #1 - 4th line 09:59, 09:04, 09:18 and has the GWG ( 60 min game )
Game #2 - 4th line 11:11, 08:34, 09:38 ( 64 minute game )
Game #3 - 4th line 07:57, 09:28, 09:41 ( 69 minute game )
Game #4 - 4th line 07:09, 07:19, 12:24 ( 106 minute game )

And these minutes are from a coach that actually has said he thinks this is one of the best 4th lines he has ever coached. And I agree with him. They are fine, and I don't have a problem with them playing.

Teams that win the Stanley Cup have 4th lines that can play at an even level or even positively contribute, but they play. We will not win the cup with our 4th line sitting. Our top 3 lines will get too tired.

This has been a discussion on these forums for years and in playoff series... Maurice plays his 4th line less than almost ever other team.

 

[ElLoboBlanco]

If all you care about is the end result then I guess Maurice is a good coach, but..

Someone needs to explain to me how in a game that went over 100 minutes, Maurice plays his 4th line for basically 7 minutes? 6 periods of hockey and you play 3 lines? Maybe if he actually played his 4th line the Jets better players wouldn't have been dragging their asses around and could have ended this game in the 1st OT.

Because everyone gets enough rest while we wait for the TSN/Sportsnet maple leafs to beat the Habs. You really don't want to be the coach who looses the chance to close out the series because Mcjesus got out against Thompson.

If there was any year to question PoMos ice time for the 4th line this isn't it.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

Yep.

I've been as hard on Mo as anyone but that was a well coached series and earned him another year at least.

Going to Morrissey/Demelo and matching up Lowry vs. McDavid whenever possible was a huge move. Also seemed like we played much tighter through the neutral zone than usual. D zone play was notably more switching than strict M2M.

Bring on the next round.

No question that Mo and the coaching staff had the right strategy, player buy in and solid execution on this one. Well done.

 

[Guffman]

If Noel had Hellebuyck in net, he'd still be the head coach.

The interesting thing is that many posters here make fun of Maurice’s career record but never acknowledge the terrible goaltending he had to work with.

Smith actually played very well for the Oilers in this series.

 

[FonRiesen]

Game #1 - 4th line 09:59, 09:04, 09:18 and has the GWG ( 60 min game )
Game #2 - 4th line 11:11, 08:34, 09:38 ( 64 minute game )
Game #3 - 4th line 07:57, 09:28, 09:41 ( 69 minute game )
Game #4 - 4th line 07:09, 07:19, 12:24 ( 106 minute game )

And these minutes are from a coach that actually has said he thinks this is one of the best 4th lines he has ever coached. And I agree with him. They are fine, and I don't have a problem with them playing.

Teams that win the Stanley Cup have 4th lines that can play at an even level or even positively contribute, but they play. We will not win the cup with our 4th line sitting. Our top 3 lines will get too tired.

This has been a discussion on these forums for years and in playoff series... Maurice plays his 4th line less than almost ever other team.

I agree - line management is something he should outsource. As far as I know, he sends out the forward lines and Huddy sends out the D. At least it used to be that way. IIRC he said he only looks at playing time updates at the end of each period and 'sometimes things get out of hand' - he's a very 'in the moment' guy which is good for some things, not so much others...

I was hoping to see a regular rotation of at least MP up the lineup in OT, maybe spelling off wingers for extra energy (at least run 1/3 lines). I'm glad he went in for PLD at least later on - brought some energy.

And for clarification, I meant that line 4 played fine in the first two games - it's no weird that they played less in the last 2 - when they played more our D and overall game was stronger, IMO - I still want to see PLD or Stats centering line 4 and running them to 15+m/night (they can get extra minutes with special teams like MP does now). Fresher legs would make a MASSIVE difference in OT.

 

[tbcwpg]

Oilers with McD and Drai on the ice 5v5:

	With McD+ Drai	w/o McD+ Drai
TOI	48:25	172:13
SF/60	49.57	27.18
CF/60	85.51	60.97
xGF/60	4.31	2.25
SCF/60	42.13	28.92
HDCF/60	29.74	10.10
OnIceSH%	5.00%	3.85%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Even if we take McD and Drai out of the equation, the Jets are still ranked in the bottom half of playoff teams. Shots against improves - 27.18 is quite good (getting lots of blocks). Corsi-against of 60.97 is worse than the regular season. xGA improves (2.25 vs the Ahlolilers, 2.41 regular season). SCA worse, HDCA better.

Again, you won't get much argument from me that Hellebuyck was the main factor, but I think the Jets did very well comparatively to their regular season, for sure. Those differences between 97 and 29 being on the ice and not are very stark.

 

[WPGChief]

I heard Maurice told Hellebuyck to make more saves; makes him the coach of the year, in my opinion.

 

[jgimp]

Can someone who’s good on these computer gizmos make a meme with Lloyd Christmas saying to PoMo that he totally redeemed himself?

 

[surixon]

Again, you won't get much argument from me that Hellebuyck was the main factor, but I think the Jets did very well comparatively to their regular season, for sure. Those differences between 97 and 29 being on the ice and not are very stark.

Again, you won't get much argument from me that Hellebuyck was the main factor, but I think the Jets did very well comparatively to their regular season, for sure. Those differences between 97 and 29 being on the ice and not are very stark.

The team still needs a massive upgrade on defense and it was clear 2/3rds of our second line are not healthy or up to game speed just yet.

We still need an additional two top 4 dmen imo to really contend.

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

I think both coaches decided to try to win the game as soon as possible, even if it meant it was through a mistake based on exhaustion. It was an unusual decision by both coaches, but pretty obvious that they were going to ride their top players. Also, I think both coaches are pretty confident with the fitness of their top players. Scheifele and McDavid are machines. Connor is very fit and can find a bit of reserve in the tank even at the end of a long shift in a 6th period. Lowry and Copp and Appleton also have very good fitness. As long as Edmonton was going to run their top players every other shift, Maurice probably thought he could match them with his top 9.

What became obvious was that Ehlers and Dubois and Stastny were struggling with endurance, which was why he sprinkled Perreault in for a few shifts on that line (for Dubois and Ehlers). In particular, I thought Ehlers looked much less energetic and effective last night. As the game wore on, he really flagged.

I mean it was Ehlers second game back in a month and on a back-to-back and went to triple OT...I think we can give him a bit of a pass on being fatigued.

Connor and Scheifele were impressive though, those guys are horses. Same with Nurse, 60+ minutes and it looked like he had a lot more to give. Impressive.

Dubois needs to start doing something, he has been disappointing.

 

[ElLoboBlanco]

Oilers with McD and Drai on the ice 5v5:

	With McD+ Drai	w/o McD+ Drai
TOI	48:25	172:13
SF/60	49.57	27.18
CF/60	85.51	60.97
xGF/60	4.31	2.25
SCF/60	42.13	28.92
HDCF/60	29.74	10.10
OnIceSH%	5.00%	3.85%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Even if we take McD and Drai out of the equation, the Jets are still ranked in the bottom half of playoff teams. Shots against improves - 27.18 is quite good (getting lots of blocks). Corsi-against of 60.97 is worse than the regular season. xGA improves (2.25 vs the Ahlolilers, 2.41 regular season). SCA worse, HDCA better.

You are completely right.

That said, who cares.

Win the scorsi screw the Corsi.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

Even Tampa fans were frustrated and thought Cooper was a terrible coach until they won a Cup. Now they are right back to complaining about line matchups and how he handles the x's and o's. The coaches job is to take the brunt of the hate, so the players don't have to. When really the players should be getting the hate for performing poorly.

The difference is that Cooper has a track record of winning. He has won at pretty much every level he has coached. So the fans are being irrational.

In our case, the coach has never won the championship at any level ever. So not analyzing or questioning his moves or if he can get it done would be irrational as a fan.

 

[Daximus]

The difference is that Cooper has a track record of winning. He has won at pretty much every level he has coached. So the fans are being irrational.

In our case, the coach has never won the championship at any level ever. So not analyzing or questioning his moves or if he can get it done would be irrational as a fan.

And even he got swept in the first round by an inferior team. Plus he;s got arguably the bets roster assembled in the last 10 years. I could coach the lightning to a Cup final or two.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

And even he got swept in the first round by an inferior team. Plus he;s got arguably the bets roster assembled in the last 10 years. I could coach the lightning to a Cup final or two.

I get your point, but no you couldn't.