Checkers V: Macgregor Kilpatrick Trophy Edition

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DaveG

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I'm not going to say anything about this until it's official. This seems too weird for it to not be some kind of negotiating tactic, a la letting Don Waddell speak to the Wild and then hammering out an agreement at the last minute, with the full knowledge that the big dog is willing to walk away if the price is too high. I truly, truly hope that this doesn't happen, though.

I'm just wondering if we're too far along in the process at this point for that. The time for an organized campaign was back when the rumors started coming out back in... what was it January? I can get why there wasn't one though, it just seemed too absurd to possibly happen.

Seriously the backstory on this would be absolutely fascinating. What would cause this much of a fallout between Khan and Dundon considering that Khan was one of the partial owners before Dundon came onboard.
 

GoldiFox

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He's going to play the best players he has at his disposal. Ultimately his goal is just like his players, to move up to the NHL. And any management team worth working for is not going to tell him how to make up his roster any more than they tell Brind'Amour how to make up his. A GM provides the players, the coach decides how to deploy them. Warsofsky's not going to play our prospects over expensive vets the Wolves provide if he thinks it's a losing proposition, even if the Canes threaten to get rid of him for it (which they wouldn't do anyway).

Warsofsky's role is quite a bit different than Brind'Amour's role. The Checkers/Wolves are the Canes farm team. They exist to develop players that eventually will play for the Canes. Warsofsky is 32 years old. Of course he eventually wants to make it to the NHL eventually but butting heads with his bosses is not going to fast track him.

If the Canes want a prospect they feel is deserving of playtime to get experience and Warsofsky refuses to give him those minutes of course they will look to replace him as a coach. What use is he as an employee of the Canes if he isn't working towards organizational goals? Let's say Dominik Bokk comes over next year and plays in Chicago. Waddell tells Warsofsky to get him top-6 minutes. Warsofsky proceeds to stick him on the 4th line and plays 30 year old AAAA guys in all top-6 spots. You think the Canes will just shrug? I don't see it.

What is the leverage on the flip side? The Chicago Wolves owner asking him pretty please to play the 30 year old AAAA forwards he signed? The Wolves owner can't fire him, but the Canes can. The Checkers never had a problem competing with the talent they were given. I don't see why that would change with a geographical move. Heck, supplementing the team with pricier vets to play alongside the Canes prospects could be a beneficial thing if deployed properly. Which I'm sure the Canes will dictate if the situation arises.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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I've not been convinced the new regime is THAT concerned with development. It's still too early to tell, but they've traded a lot of pieces off.

This is a good discussion to have and I've been thinking about this for a while. It's hard to compare JR (in Carolina), Francis and Waddell, simply because JR and Francis had Karmanos's shallow pockets vs. Waddell having Dundon's deep pockets, and that is a big piece of the behavior, so I'll ignore the JR/Francis era and just look at this current group.

After some thought, I do believe that the new regime is concerned with development, but not in the traditional way I think of drafting and developing. For me, drafting and developing meant a model where you draft guys, let them marinate at a lower level, and as guys at the NHL level get older, want too much money, or leave as UFAs, you have a crop of guys in the system to fill in, even if it's depth and someone else on the NHL squad moves up the food chain. I DON'T think the current regime is concerned about that type of development overall.

This is my view (which admittedly could be off). First, I think the current regime looks at drafted/developed players as currency, as much as they do as a guy that can step in down the road, particularly if the guy isn't viewed as a top end guy (Aho, Svech, Necas, etc..). I think they want lots of draft picks to keep refilling the pipeline, and if some of those develop/project to be high end enough, they keep them and promote from within in a traditional draft/development sense. If they feel they top out as low end - middling players (Wallmark, Roy, Gauthier, Saarela, Carrick, etc...), they view them more as currency in a trade more than as a guy they want at the NHL, because they probably feel they can get that type of guy anywhere.

Look at Nic Roy. He was developing nicely, but he looked to be maybe a 4th line C, 3rd line tops in the most optimistic projection. Canes moved him to get Haula. Canes then moved Haula, Wallmark (4th rounder 3rd/4th line C), Luostarenen (2nd rounder who looks like tops out as a bottom 6 player), and Priskie (who was free) for Vincent Trochek. Now, Trochek post injury isn't what he used to be (although in the AMA I was told he said he is still recovering), but a year ago, if anyone would have proposed Roy, Wallmark and Luostarinen for Trocheck, they'd have been accused of making the worst proposal on HF and be told "3 nickels for a quarter" (or some analogy like that)...but that's essentially what the Canes did. If Trocheck never recovers his game to what it was, it's still an OK trade (provided they can work the salary cap), but if he does recover his game, it could be phenomenal.

I also think this regime isn't afraid of taking high risk, high reward chances.
  • de Hann was coming off a bad shoulder injury in which he missed the a ton of time when the Canes signed him.
  • Gardiner, the same, injuries are why he was still around.
  • Trocheck is another case of a guy that has a high reward if he recovers/recovers his game.
  • Haula was coming off a horrible injury and the Canes took a chance on it.
  • Vatanen (albeit a rental), might not even suit up for Carolina due to injury
  • Skjei struggled the last couple of years in NY.

etc... Some of those were no brainers, some of them could backfire, some could work out nicely, but it seems they aren't afraid of more high risk/high reward type moves. Even Dougie/Ferland for Hanifin/Lindholm falls a bit into that category. Ferland had concussion problems and was a UFA in a year. Hamilton had a bad rap and was onto his 3rd team so giving up two, young, cost controlled 5th OA picks is a high risk move. In fairness, it's a lot easier to make high risk/reward moves when the money is there to do it. The two "kinda" high risk/reward moves JR made (T. Kaberle , A. Semin) backfired and Karmanos came right out and said "never again".

Anyhow, TLDR, I do think they value developing, but not in the traditional sense I'm accustomed to.
 

A Star is Burns

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This is a good discussion to have and I've been thinking about this for a while. It's hard to compare JR (in Carolina), Francis and Waddell, simply because JR and Francis had Karmanos's shallow pockets vs. Waddell having Dundon's deep pockets, and that is a big piece of the behavior, so I'll ignore the JR/Francis era and just look at this current group.

After some thought, I do believe that the new regime is concerned with development, but not in the traditional way I think of drafting and developing. For me, drafting and developing meant a model where you draft guys, let them marinate at a lower level, and as guys at the NHL level get older, want too much money, or leave as UFAs, you have a crop of guys in the system to fill in, even if it's depth and someone else on the NHL squad moves up the food chain. I DON'T think the current regime is concerned about that type of development overall.

This is my view (which admittedly could be off). First, I think the current regime looks at drafted/developed players as currency, as much as they do as a guy that can step in down the road, particularly if the guy isn't viewed as a top end guy (Aho, Svech, Necas, etc..). I think they want lots of draft picks to keep refilling the pipeline, and if some of those develop/project to be high end enough, they keep them and promote from within in a traditional draft/development sense. If they feel they top out as low end - middling players (Wallmark, Roy, Gauthier, Saarela, Carrick, etc...), they view them more as currency in a trade more than as a guy they want at the NHL, because they probably feel they can get that type of guy anywhere.

Look at Nic Roy. He was developing nicely, but he looked to be maybe a 4th line C, 3rd line tops in the most optimistic projection. Canes moved him to get Haula. Canes then moved Haula, Wallmark (4th rounder 3rd/4th line C), Luostarenen (2nd rounder who looks like tops out as a bottom 6 player), and Priskie (who was free) for Vincent Trochek. Now, Trochek post injury isn't what he used to be (although in the AMA I was told he said he is still recovering), but a year ago, if anyone would have proposed Roy, Wallmark and Luostarinen for Trocheck, they'd have been accused of making the worst proposal on HF and be told "3 nickels for a quarter" (or some analogy like that)...but that's essentially what the Canes did. If Trocheck never recovers his game to what it was, it's still an OK trade (provided they can work the salary cap), but if he does recover his game, it could be phenomenal.

I also think this regime isn't afraid of taking high risk, high reward chances.
  • de Hann was coming off a bad shoulder injury in which he missed the a ton of time when the Canes signed him.
  • Gardiner, the same, injuries are why he was still around.
  • Trocheck is another case of a guy that has a high reward if he recovers/recovers his game.
  • Haula was coming off a horrible injury and the Canes took a chance on it.
  • Vatanen (albeit a rental), might not even suit up for Carolina due to injury
  • Skjei struggled the last couple of years in NY.

etc... Some of those were no brainers, some of them could backfire, some could work out nicely, but it seems they aren't afraid of more high risk/high reward type moves. Even Dougie/Ferland for Hanifin/Lindholm falls a bit into that category. Ferland had concussion problems and was a UFA in a year. Hamilton had a bad rap and was onto his 3rd team so giving up two, young, cost controlled 5th OA picks is a high risk move. In fairness, it's a lot easier to make high risk/reward moves when the money is there to do it. The two "kinda" high risk/reward moves JR made (T. Kaberle , A. Semin) backfired and Karmanos came right out and said "never again".

Anyhow, TLDR, I do think they value developing, but not in the traditional sense I'm accustomed to.
I think for their behavior so far, you are absolutely correct. The thing we don't know is how they'll react as this team ages and gets more of those big contracts. As you and I have brought up on many occasions, they actually had several rookies play the last two years, so they aren't totally averse to developing guys that go onto the big team. To the point they probably couldn't have done much more in the way of putting rookies in the NHL and be competitive.

But we really won't know how they treat those middling guys for sure until we get Svech and maybe Hamilton on the books with big contracts. I'd imagine that's when they'll finally start putting in more of those cheap, mid level prospects. The guys you mentioned that they moved on from like Roy might have just been caught in a bad place at a bad time in terms of our window. It made sense to move them for those more expensive, semi veteran guys because we could afford it. Some day, we won't likely be able to cap wise.
 

Stickpucker

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What I'm wondering is who got to make the decision on this? Is this something that went to the borg and was voted on to go this route?
 

spockBokk

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I’m not a fan of this at all. Kahn and Dundon must hate each other to not keep the partnership going. Both orgs really were coming into their own. Sucks for any Canes fans living in the Charlotte area...like me...ugh.

I saw someone posted on Twitter that the Checkers side of the house was more to blame than the Canes side for the breakup and that “when all the info comes out” Kahn will look pretty shady. Who knows if that had any truth to it. I’m just really bummed I won’t be able to watch guys like Bokk, Rees, Honka, etc. work their way to the NHL, at least not as conveniently and in person. I can always spring for AHL Live...
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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I think for their behavior so far, you are absolutely correct. The thing we don't know is how they'll react as this team ages and gets more of those big contracts. As you and I have brought up on many occasions, they actually had several rookies play the last two years, so they aren't totally averse to developing guys that go onto the big team. To the point they probably couldn't have done much more in the way of putting rookies in the NHL and be competitive.

But we really won't know how they treat those middling guys for sure until we get Svech and maybe Hamilton on the books with big contracts. I'd imagine that's when they'll finally start putting in more of those cheap, mid level prospects. The guys you mentioned that they moved on from like Roy might have just been caught in a bad place at a bad time in terms of our window. It made sense to move them for those more expensive, semi veteran guys because we could afford it. Some day, we won't likely be able to cap wise.
Excellent point on the future. When Waddell took over, we had a young team and a stocked prospect pool so there were assets to make moves. Going to be interesting yo watch down the road
 

DaveG

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I’m not a fan of this at all. Kahn and Dundon must hate each other to not keep the partnership going. Both orgs really were coming into their own. Sucks for any Canes fans living in the Charlotte area...like me...ugh.

I saw someone posted on Twitter that the Checkers side of the house was more to blame than the Canes side for the breakup and that “when all the info comes out” Kahn will look pretty shady. Who knows if that had any truth to it. I’m just really bummed I won’t be able to watch guys like Bokk, Rees, Honka, etc. work their way to the NHL, at least not as conveniently and in person. I can always spring for AHL Live...

I wouldn't be surprised, and honestly this is likely why they're going to have an out clause in their Chicago deal. As such it wouldn't be a surprise to see the Canes bolt the Wolves affiliation after all of 1 season even if it's not to turn back to Charlotte. Pity that Norfolk isn't around any longer as that wouldn't be a bad location for an affiliate either. What I can't see is us buying one of the teams that's been around forever that's independent (say Syracuse) and full on moving them to Greensboro or the like, but you never know.

I think for their behavior so far, you are absolutely correct. The thing we don't know is how they'll react as this team ages and gets more of those big contracts. As you and I have brought up on many occasions, they actually had several rookies play the last two years, so they aren't totally averse to developing guys that go onto the big team. To the point they probably couldn't have done much more in the way of putting rookies in the NHL and be competitive.

But we really won't know how they treat those middling guys for sure until we get Svech and maybe Hamilton on the books with big contracts. I'd imagine that's when they'll finally start putting in more of those cheap, mid level prospects. The guys you mentioned that they moved on from like Roy might have just been caught in a bad place at a bad time in terms of our window. It made sense to move them for those more expensive, semi veteran guys because we could afford it. Some day, we won't likely be able to cap wise.

The telling thing will be what happens when Svech and Dougie get paid next season. Dzingle will be gone that offseason and Nino's deal expires the next year. The question will be if they use the prospects to go out and do another Trochek or Haula type trade, or if they look to move out say Nino with his remaining year and fill from within.
 
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WreckingCrew

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It wouldn't surprise me to find out that a lot of the animosity on the Checkers end is the roster being so gutted twice in less than a year. We knew the offseason was going to see lots of departures of veteran guys who just weren't cracking our NHL lineup and were going to want a shot elsewhere for one last hurrah (Poturalski, Brown, Carrick), then there were losses from trades (Saarela, Roy), and Necas promotion. Lost 1-5 & 9-12 on our top scorers list from the Calder Cup roster. It took a while for the team to find its footing, they were BAD to start the year, but then they started ramping up, getting a groove, then BOOM around TDL...lose Goat, Luos, Priskie, Kooks, Claesson, only got back Keane in return...running towards the end of the year and it's half an ECHL team. I didn't like it, but I also realize that's life as a minor league AHL affiliate. But I can understand Kahn maybe taking offense to it (especially since there seemed to be talk of the Canes searching for minor moves to help the Checkers as well that never came about)...kinda killed our playoff run momentum.
 

CHRDANHUTCH

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With that purchase price Vegas definitely wasn't "gifted" any franchise. Quite the contrary, I'd say.

I really don't like this for the Canes, or the Checkers for that matter. The Canes will now send their prospects to Chicago who are notoriously difficult to work with, putting player development last on the priority list. And the Checkers will lose their connection to the in-state NHL-team, which has to influence their bottom-line, imo. Two giant egos clash and the end result is negative for both. Shocker.
Vegas wasn't gifted a franchise, though..... no one knew SSE was even remotely approached or wanted out of operating a franchise..... the point was it wasn't likely St. Louis being the fallback and that's where Carolina, among others unknown became the focus, not just Florida letting Springfield's deal simply expire, had the pandemic not interrupted anything....and then the Blues aligning in Springfield(which almost occurred had the Indians not been transferred to Worcester before the rule was adopted that now specifies all AHL Teams have to be affiliated before being activated as a member of said league, that rule had been proposed, and the Blues had to be convinced to affiliate there, otherwise, this has become standard practice in the last decade or so, including the creation of the Pacific Division in 2014/15, then the elimination of Norfolk by Anaheim and the then move of the Falcons franchise to Tucson the following year, which eliminated Portland from the league entirely, it was stated that Florida wasn't informed of that agreement initially, but otherwise it is not new to the business side of the AHL
 

Canes

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He's going to do what his employer tells him. If the Canes are inserting him there as coach, and they are the ones controlling his employment, he's going to do what they tell him to do. And I completely disagree with allowing an AHL franchise to operate on their own when you're using them as a development program. I mean yeah, you'd like to win, but the organizational goal here is to maximize talent at the NHL level, and that also means prioritizing the development of prospects over loading up on veterans to keep making a run.

I'd be far more worried about their direction if the Wolves could employ their own coach and coaching staff, but that's not the case here. The Canes are going to be pulling the strings.
lol the Canes aren't going to tell him or any coach how to construct his lines, special teams, etc unless they want some terrible yes man of a coach. People who think he's gonna go play developmental prospects if he has potential AHL all-star veterans at his disposal are crazy. I'm sure he or any coach worth their salt would rather be fired than be told he has to play the next Keith Aucoin on the 4th line over a guy like Stelio Mattheos when Aucoin 2.0 could be a key competent in helping him win and get to the next level. Warsofsky has options, he doesn't have to deal with meddling GMs. This is pure fantasy people have concocted to help themselves alleviate their concerns of player development taking a back seat with a franchise like Wolves.
 
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Navin R Slavin

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It wouldn't surprise me to find out that a lot of the animosity on the Checkers end is the roster being so gutted twice in less than a year. We knew the offseason was going to see lots of departures of veteran guys who just weren't cracking our NHL lineup and were going to want a shot elsewhere for one last hurrah (Poturalski, Brown, Carrick), then there were losses from trades (Saarela, Roy), and Necas promotion. Lost 1-5 & 9-12 on our top scorers list from the Calder Cup roster. It took a while for the team to find its footing, they were BAD to start the year, but then they started ramping up, getting a groove, then BOOM around TDL...lose Goat, Luos, Priskie, Kooks, Claesson, only got back Keane in return...running towards the end of the year and it's half an ECHL team. I didn't like it, but I also realize that's life as a minor league AHL affiliate. But I can understand Kahn maybe taking offense to it (especially since there seemed to be talk of the Canes searching for minor moves to help the Checkers as well that never came about)...kinda killed our playoff run momentum.

If that's the case, then Kahn et al are being incredibly short sighted. They won a Calder a year ago, and in general, this org will be marinating more and better players for longer in the AHL.

I can't imagine that's actually the cause of this, though.
 

Navin R Slavin

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I’m not a fan of this at all. Kahn and Dundon must hate each other to not keep the partnership going. Both orgs really were coming into their own. Sucks for any Canes fans living in the Charlotte area...like me...ugh.

I saw someone posted on Twitter that the Checkers side of the house was more to blame than the Canes side for the breakup and that “when all the info comes out” Kahn will look pretty shady. Who knows if that had any truth to it. I’m just really bummed I won’t be able to watch guys like Bokk, Rees, Honka, etc. work their way to the NHL, at least not as conveniently and in person. I can always spring for AHL Live...

Got a link to that tweet?
 

A Star is Burns

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I'm curious, how many of those AHL all stars were on AHL only contracts with the Wolves? I feel like on the big list maybe DaveG posted, there was 1? Can Chicago really afford to pay those types more than teams offering 2 way contracts with guaranteed like 250k+ contracts? If we don't supply those types of players ourselves, will it naturally limit the number they have available?
 

WreckingCrew

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lol the Canes aren't going to tell him or any coach how to construct his lines, special teams, etc unless they want some terrible yes man of a coach. People who think he's gonna go play developmental prospects if he has potential AHL all-star veterans at his disposal are crazy. I'm sure he or any coach worth their salt would rather be fired than be told he has to play the next Keith Aucoin on the 4th line over a guy like Stelio Mattheos when Aucoin 2.0 could be a key competent in helping him win and get to the next level. Warsofsky has options, he doesn't have to deal with meddling GMs. This is pure fantasy people have concocted to help themselves alleviate their concerns of player development taking a back seat with a franchise like Wolves.
Hell, just look at the Hurricanes - promising young prospect on a tear in the AHL...call up Gibbons. RBA - has playmaking rookie, plays Staal on the PP. Fleury proving himself with more confidence - play TVR on the first line...
 

WreckingCrew

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If that's the case, then Kahn et al are being incredibly short sighted. They won a Calder a year ago, and in general, this org will be marinating more and better players for longer in the AHL.

I can't imagine that's actually the cause of this, though.
Pure speculation on my part, I've heard nothing from either otherwise. The Checkers did release an announcement the other day that they basically had no idea that the Canes were actually considering the Chicago swap and there hadn't been any communication with them. Truth or posturing? Nobody knows right now
 
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A Star is Burns

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I'm curious, how many of those AHL all stars were on AHL only contracts with the Wolves? I feel like on the big list maybe DaveG posted, there was 1? Can Chicago really afford to pay those types more than teams offering 2 way contracts with guaranteed like 250k+ contracts? If we don't supply those types of players ourselves, will it naturally limit the number they have available?
Further to this, if they can afford a few guys, maybe that's a benefit to us. We don't sign the Gibbons and McCormick types of the world and let Chicago do it. We save money and the roster ends up less flooded with those guys. Just spitballing.
 

DaveG

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SHOULD THEY also own ECHL Clubs that they affiliate with, if that's the next hurdle.....
I don't think there's enough to go with there with a 50 contract limit. At most you usually see 3-4 skaters contacted to the NHL org in a given ECHL team most of the time and most of the time those guys are long shot prospects. No major reason to own an ECHL franchise.
 

WreckingCrew

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I find myself wondering why parent clubs shouldn't just open their AHL affiliates outright. I wonder if Dundon has the same questions.
How do you control contracts then? Increase contract limit? Now you're having to fill out rosters with guys that aren't prospects but just ECHL/AHL guys who are getting two-way NHL contracts (gonna get expensive). Unless they operate them "independently", but then you'll have conflict-of-interest...why give the guy an NHL contract when you can give him the AHL version until he proves good enough to get an NHL? That's a lot of expense to add to NHL teams (some of whom are struggling already), and layers of contractual complexity.
 

Navin R Slavin

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How do you control contracts then? Increase contract limit? Now you're having to fill out rosters with guys that aren't prospects but just ECHL/AHL guys who are getting two-way NHL contracts (gonna get expensive). Unless they operate them "independently", but then you'll have conflict-of-interest...why give the guy an NHL contract when you can give him the AHL version until he proves good enough to get an NHL? That's a lot of expense to add to NHL teams (some of whom are struggling already), and layers of contractual complexity.

I'll counter that question with a question: why did the Knights buy the San Antonio Rampage?
 
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CHRDANHUTCH

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I'll counter that question with a question: why did the Knights buy the San Antonio Rampage?
simply why did the entire Pacific Division.... including Anaheim and Arizona bought franchises after being solely affiliate-only..... the only reason Kahn bought the license to transfer the Checkers up a level.....is because CDS sold the franchise, sometimes it's both the license and the franchise, sometimes it's simply a straight affiliation switch, it depends on what is offered.....in Vegas'case there's no franchise owners selling out nor are the Wolves for sale to relocate to Henderson, as where the Knights affiliate will eventually be (that arena is still being built, as we speak)
 
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Navin R Slavin

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Here's the thing: this move seems really stupid. And Dundon is many things -- unconventional, hyper-competitive, "cheap", huge ego, maybe psychopathic. But to this point he hasn't demonstrated himself to be stupid.

So it's possible that this is a terrible mistake, and that this is nothing more than a dick measuring contest. But he/the Borg have obviously got some plan that justifies this risk, in their minds. I'm just speculating as to what that plan might be.
 
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