Speculation: Caps Roster General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines/etc) | 2023-24 Regular Season Edition

[Calicaps]

I thought the "issue" with Oshie (outside of Hitchcock and if they got along) was that he was seen as "the guy" in St. Louis when he's just not that level of player. They kept expecting this next level to unlock and for Oshie to get to an all-star 'takeover' level of player, and that pressure meant Oshie was trying (at times too hard) to make that happen, not playing his best hockey as a result, and then getting down.

It was creating a negative feedback loop and the change of scenery trade to Washington put him on a team where he was instantly recognized as maybe the third best forward on the roster and allowed to be a complementary player.

Marner's also probably in a pretty negative loop right now, but what I'm less certain of is how he changes for the better if moved because the issue at hand doesn't seem to be the same.

But that's just the point. His environment didn't suit him. The reasons matter less than the fact of it for the purposes of this discussion. As for Marner in particular, it's really hard to know what exactly isn't working for him until he has the chance to perform in a different situation. That will allow for comparisons. But Toronto is a crucible with massive pressure and massive long-term failure. Lots of guys underperforming year after year when it matters most, regardless of coach or opponent. So who knows?

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

You might get me to go along with a package like that. I would be open to trying to right Marner's issues with a better culture, especially if we keep our young players. Maybe one of the Chuckie or Keumper instead of Tom - I'd rather keep Tom as his influence would straighten out any attitude issues Marner might have. In that case he would be coming into an already entrenched solid cohesive culture (watch any of our post game videos, and then watch the Leafs stars on the bench last Saturday).

I'd also be up for giving 2 1sts and a goalie and Jensen for Marner if you want to press me. Leafs are almost pickless (over the next 3 Drafts they have 2 of 3 1sts, ZERO 2nds, and only ONE 3rd).... If we kept our youth and added Marner we would have a full pool up front to develop. Then build the D through FA and maybe hockey trades (and D take longer to develop - any we take mid round this or next year will take a while).

I'd also be open to a goalie(s) + Jensen + a couple of 1sts to get Marner-like youngish Top 6 scoring.

I would love to keep Wilson but I think if the Leafs trade Marner they have to have a splash coming back. Would I prefer to do 1st + Jensen + Kuemper @50% + a forward/forward prospect to help offset the loss of Marner’s productivity? Absolutely, but I have to imagine if Toronto sells Marner they’re going to want to anchor it around a cornerstone piece that helps them win now and creates some excitement for the team and I don’t see a realistic way of doing that without including Wilson or Leonard.

 

[um]

I would love to keep Wilson but I think if the Leafs trade Marner they have to have a splash coming back. Would I prefer to do 1st + Jensen + Kuemper @50% + a forward/forward prospect to help offset the loss of Marner’s productivity? Absolutely, but I have to imagine if Toronto sells Marner they’re going to want to anchor it around a cornerstone piece that helps them win now and creates some excitement for the team and I don’t see a realistic way of doing that without including Wilson or Leonard.

I don’t know. Marner having a full NMC makes the situation very different. Leafs May have to settle for less, maybe they prioritize the cap space they badly need. Caps are one of few teams that can offer that.

 

[HTFN]

But that's just the point. His environment didn't suit him. The reasons matter less than the fact of it for the purposes of this discussion. As for Marner in particular, it's really hard to know what exactly isn't working for him until he has the chance to perform in a different situation. That will allow for comparisons. But Toronto is a crucible with massive pressure and massive long-term failure. Lots of guys underperforming year after year when it matters most, regardless of coach or opponent. So who knows?

I get that, but my impression of Marner isn't someone who is struggling because of Toronto's pressure cooker, I think he likes it for the most part. Any move obviously comes with more than one variable change and we won't know until it happens but I don't think going to a smaller market or taking a smaller role is a relief or appealing to Marner. I think he wants to be the guy, and we don't know what that looks like on a lesser team.

There's a chance he goes more Huberdeau and can't carry without help.

 

[Calicaps]

I get that, but my impression of Marner isn't someone who is struggling because of Toronto's pressure cooker, I think he likes it for the most part. Any move obviously comes with more than one variable change and we won't know until it happens but I don't think going to a smaller market or taking a smaller role is a relief or appealing to Marner. I think he wants to be the guy, and we don't know what that looks like on a lesser team.

There's a chance he goes more Huberdeau and can't carry without help.

And that's the risk, I guess. Oshie also could have just been a dud. But presumably management has or can get more insight into the player than us fans.

 

[ArmadilloThumb]

I get that, but my impression of Marner isn't someone who is struggling because of Toronto's pressure cooker, I think he likes it for the most part. Any move obviously comes with more than one variable change and we won't know until it happens but I don't think going to a smaller market or taking a smaller role is a relief or appealing to Marner. I think he wants to be the guy, and we don't know what that looks like on a lesser team.

There's a chance he goes more Huberdeau and can't carry without help.

This. My gut still says Marner is not the guy we should go after.

Secret sauce happens when you identify someone who is about to go up a level - or has untapped potential - but their team doesn't see that. Caps have a history of trying to find that guy, and have had some real successes.

That's who who move up to a Goalie + 1st + Jensen for. Not sure who that might be - open to hears suggestions on potential targets that fit that scenario...

 

[twabby]

This. My gut still says Marner is not the guy we should go after.

Secret sauce happens when you identify someone who is about to go up a level - or has untapped potential - but their team doesn't see that. Caps have a history of trying to find that guy, and have had some real successes.

That's who who move up to a Goalie + 1st + Jensen for. Not sure who that might be - open to hears suggestions on potential targets that fit that scenario...

I suggested Quinton Byfield for Tom Wilson last offseason, but I was told Byfield was a bust. Now he's probably an untouchable.

I'll be reviewing the numbers to see who might fit a similar mold to Byfield this offseason.

 

[CapsSkins]

There's a lot of revisionist history about Oshie here because he's a guy who fit in beautifully.

The GMGM-era Caps were run and gun, fast, skilled, but lacking defensive responsibility and grit. The current era Caps are close to the opposite.

Do not keep fighting yesterday's wars. We need to get faster and more skilled.

 

[HandsomeTom43]

I suggested Quinton Byfield for Tom Wilson last offseason, but I was told Byfield was a bust. Now he's probably an untouchable.

I'll be reviewing the numbers to see who might fit a similar mold to Byfield this offseason.

I remember this, despite my Wilson mancrush, I agreed and I thought Byfield was also going to be a stud. I am concerned at this point that Wilson won’t recover, he just never stepped it up this year. I’m still not sold on trading Wilson but if something like this opens up you have to do it.

 

[marcel snapshot]

This thing from way back with Marner's dad is pretty blecchh - you could see how it could make somebody a little tightly wound

 

[Empty Goal Net]

This. My gut still says Marner is not the guy we should go after.

Secret sauce happens when you identify someone who is about to go up a level - or has untapped potential - but their team doesn't see that. Caps have a history of trying to find that guy, and have had some real successes.

But shouldn't Carbs have a good sense of Marner, his strengths, what drives him and perhaps how he might do with a change of scenery? We are likely to never know how much BMac tries to acquire/sign him, but if he ends up here it won't be w/o the coach's blessing.

 

[ArmadilloThumb]

But shouldn't Carbs have a good sense of Marner, his strengths, what drives him and perhaps how he might do with a change of scenery? We are likely to never know how much BMac tries to acquire/sign him, but if he ends up here it won't be w/o the coach's blessing.

That is an excellent point, and I'm sure he would have a huge say, if not actually be the final arbiter of even whether to pursue him or not.

 

[hb12xchamps]

Does anyone have a clue on what Zegras would even cost? He seems like such a polarizing player and I feel like his value is at an all time low. He’s also super expendable for the Ducks now that Gauthier, Carlson and MacTavish are there

 

[bacchist]

Does anyone have a clue on what Zegras would even cost? He seems like such a polarizing player and I feel like his value is at an all time low. He’s also super expendable for the Ducks now that Gauthier, Carlson and MacTavish are there

I mean, they're paying him what we were paying Mantha, if that puts it in perspective. I wouldn't be in any rush to trade him if I was them.

 

[pman25]

Zegras definitely seems expendable. Anaheim has a glut of left handed forwards and might add one more if they win the Celebrini lotto

Probably a mid 1st, roster player, decent prospect. I’m not sure Anaheim is that commmitted to him. Didn’t extend him long term and wasn’t picked by Verbeek

But also on the flip side, they probably aren’t in a rush to move him so can wait out a very good offer

 

[Caps8112]

realize the money doesnt match but Marner would do well as the 3rd best guy on the top line or a 2nd line center.

 

[Misery74]

I might be in the minority, but I would rather add a $6m player and $5.5m player, than one Mitch Marner.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Two Mantha’s or one Marner…..lol…easy choice.


Seriously though…I would take the more elite talent.

 

[CapsSkins]

I might be in the minority, but I would rather add a $6m player and $5.5m player, than one Mitch Marner.

When is the last time a team won the cup without an elite, Marner-caliber talent leading the way?

 

[HTFN]

When is the last time a team won the cup without an elite, Marner-caliber talent leading the way?

I suppose it depends on how we classify Tarasenko. Expanding to finalists it depends on how we classify older Jamie Benn

 

[CapsSkins]

I suppose it depends on how we classify Tarasenko. Expanding to finalists it depends on how we classify older Jamie Benn

Yeah, Tarasenko never sniffed 100 points but he was a 40 goal guy (hit 40 once and 39 once). Marner's never hit 40 goals, though he scored at a 40 goal pace a few seasons ago when he missed some games & has approached 100 points multiple times.

Point being, taking two $6M cap hit players over a $10M cap hit player implies valuing two 20-30 goal scorers over one 40G or 100P guy, which is fine if you already have one or two of those top-end guys. But if you don't, it's the wrong trade-off to make.

We don't need two Nikolaj Ehlers/Jordan Eberle types (with $6M and $5.5M cap hits, respectively), we need top-end talent.

 

[HTFN]

Yeah, Tarasenko never sniffed 100 points but he was a 40 goal guy (hit 40 once and 39 once). Marner's never hit 40 goals, though he scored at a 40 goal pace a few seasons ago when he missed some games & has approached 100 points multiple times.

Point being, taking two $6M cap hit players over a $10M cap hit player implies valuing two 20-30 goal scorers over one 40G or 100P guy, which is fine if you already have one or two of those top-end guys. But if you don't, it's the wrong trade-off to make.

We don't need two Nikolaj Ehlers/Jordan Eberle types (with $6M and $5.5M cap hits, respectively), we need top-end talent.

1.) I think it's valid to ask if Tarasenko was that guy at the point in his career where they actually won, because he looked like a 30-30 guy with injuries.

2.) It's probably arguable that the Caps need both, and neither move would be wrong. If they can't get a 100P guy with a deal that suits them it's not incorrect (or even inadequate) to get two or three quality bodies on this roster. It makes them trend a bit closer towards the middle of the pack without the boom potential, but they need people who can make plays almost across the board.

 

[CapsSkins]

1.) I think it's valid to ask if Tarasenko was that guy at the point in his career where they actually won, because he looked like a 30-30 guy with injuries.

2.) It's probably arguable that the Caps need both, and neither move would be wrong. If they can't get a 100P guy with a deal that suits them it's not incorrect (or even inadequate) to get two or three quality bodies on this roster. It makes them trend a bit closer towards the middle of the pack without the boom potential, but they need people who can make plays almost across the board.

I disagree on 2).


We have Strome, Wilson, Protas, McMichael, Lapierre, Milano, and Miroshnichenko all as middle 6 guys right now with Leonard projected in there once he comes over as well. What does adding an Eberle or Ehlers-type really get you?

If I'm going to hand out a $5-6M cap hit deal it would be for younger RHD to replace Jensen/TvR. The forward needs are top-end talent, not middle 6. That would be a waste of cap space IMO.

 

[Kalopsia]

I suppose it depends on how we classify Tarasenko. Expanding to finalists it depends on how we classify older Jamie Benn

Pietrangelo was the star of that team when they won the cup, along with O'Reilly. They didn't have a true elite scorer, but they had a legit 1D and a do-it-all 1C, both in their prime.

 

[CapsSkins]

Pietrangelo was the star of that team when they won the cup, along with O'Reilly. They didn't have a true elite scorer, but they had a legit 1D and a do-it-all 1C, both in their prime.

And they had a scorer with elite talent who may not have been the same guy anymore, but could still do things that 20-30 goal guys just can't do skill-wise.