News Article: Cap Issues

[SKRusty]

http://thehockeywriters.com/calgary-flames-cap-woes-just-another-hurdle/

From the previous $8.5 million, the Calgary Flames lost a total of $630,500 in cap space. Due to an overage penalty resulting from seven players hitting bonuses.

The most interesting part of all of this hoopla, or perhaps the most rage-inducing (depending on who you ask), is the 2014 buyout of Shane O’Brien — previously believed to be a compliance buyout, was a regular buyout.

For all of you that are lobbying to have Johnny paid whatever his demands are this is a good reason to rethink your thoughts. Realistically speaking the Flames can't go more than $7 M a season or they will face further fines next year because Sam Bennett will have bonuses as will Jankowski and Tkachuk if they make the team. The cap is tight tight tight unless Wideman, Smid, Or some other player is moved.

Good read to understand the cap crunch the Flames have.

Click to read more...

 

[Lunatik]

can't see the OP but any cap problems are vastly overstated

 

[SKRusty]

can't see the OP but any cap problems are vastly overstated

Because you have seen ways to circumvent the cap?

 

[SKRusty]

Sam Bennett's potential bonuses come to $2.3 M.
Tkachuk $850k
Jankowski $500k
Shinkaruk $250k
Hamilton's Qualifying offer $600- $800K

If you use just Sam's bonuses that takes the Flames down to $5.66M left for the cap for Johnny.

Signing Johnny at 6.75M will leave the Flames in the hole $1M dollars.

If the Flames were over last year with all the injury relief they had how is it going to shake out this season?

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Bonuses can be added to next years cap ie Chicago. The Flames should have lots of cap-room next year. Plus that's not even considering that Smid is likely on LTIR.

 

[Kipper933]

Worse case scenario, Wideman could be traded for a small return/late pick/cheaper bad contract. Wideman has a NMC, but I'd imagine he would waive it to move to a more veteran/contending team.

Even if Smid is healthy, it's likely he'll get waived/sent to the farm, saving us more cap space.

 

[SaintMorose]

So we can't possibly pay Gaudreau more than 7M because we could get hit with a bonus penalty next year of .6 - 1M?

Knowing Engelland, Smid, and Wideman are completely off the cap next year when that penalty would apply and we can change what we're paying our 6,7,and 8 Dmen.
Putting guys like Bouma and Stajan + a Dman if we sign another one on the Vegas expansion draft list.

And that we'll have multiple prospects in the system ready for those jobs.

It would be insane to decide 7.2-7.5 is far too much for an elite offensive player and get rid of him in order to accommodate cap problems we likely won't even have next season. On the low-chance assumption that both Janko and Tkachuk will play enough games to reach their bonuses.

You are making up reasons and arguments to show that you know better about how to deal with Gaudreau this could all easily go into the trade Gaudreau thread.

 

[SKRusty]

Bonuses can be added to next years cap ie Chicago. The Flames should have lots of cap-room next year. Plus that's not even considering that Smid is likely on LTIR.

Until Smid is on the LTIR that is a hope and a dream as we saw last year. Smid is skating and is intending to be at training camp from all speculation.

Next year Calgary loses Wideman, Smid and Engelland which is a good thing but it is likely Calgary will have to go after a UFA like Shattenkirk costing in the neighborhood of 6 M per. If Elliot does not work out and Gilles is not ready shooting for Bishop may be in the plans at 7-8 M.

If Sam produces 60 plus points there is another 6M. Jokipakka 2.5M, Ferland $2 M, Gilles, Chiasson, Vey

That is over 24.5M which takes the cap to 69M without Johnny's contract. Things are much tighter than it appears. Granted the Flames should be considered a bona fide contender.

The long and short of it is the cap situation is just going to get tighter and tighter.

If Johnny would have been eligible for an offersheet this year he may have already been traded like Saad or Hamilton because of the cap situation.

 

[SKRusty]

Worse case scenario, Wideman could be traded for a small return/late pick/cheaper bad contract. Wideman has a NMC, but I'd imagine he would waive it to move to a more veteran/contending team.

Even if Smid is healthy, it's likely he'll get waived/sent to the farm, saving us more cap space.

If you think that BT hasn't been trying to move Smid, Engelland, and Wideman you would be fooling yourself. BT was forced to let Colborne, Jooris, Shore, and possible Nakladal walk with nothing returned.

Trades are not as easy to make as one would think.

 

[Calculon]

Worse case scenario, Wideman could be traded for a small return/late pick/cheaper bad contract. Wideman has a NMC, but I'd imagine he would waive it to move to a more veteran/contending team.

Even if Smid is healthy, it's likely he'll get waived/sent to the farm, saving us more cap space.

That's a best case scenario. In the cap world, it's virtually impossible to move bad money for actual assets (aka cap space or picks).

 

[Kipper933]

If you think that BT hasn't been trying to move Smid, Engelland, and Wideman you would be fooling yourself. BT was forced to let Colborne, Jooris, Shore, and possible Nakladal walk with nothing returned.

Trades are not as easy to make as one would think.

I'm sure if they've tried to move Wideman so far it's for a more tangible return, not "anything" just to reduce the cap space since there hasn't been that squeeze to the cap ceiling for them yet. At a minimal cost, like another bad/but cheaper contract, I'm sure there would be plenty of teams that would like to add a veteran D with Wideman's offensive track record.

 

[SKRusty]

I'm sure if they've tried to move Wideman so far it's for a more tangible return, not "anything" just to reduce the cap space since there hasn't been that squeeze to the cap ceiling for them yet. At a minimal cost, like another bad/but cheaper contract, I'm sure there would be plenty of teams that would like to add a veteran D with Wideman's offensive track record.

Before Wideman's suspension there was interest from Boston and Pitt but as soon as he was suspended the market completely dried up. There were a few articles that mentioned many teams won't touch him because they are worried about retribution from the ref's. At this point I don't think BT could give him away.

PS. Dennis will need one hell of a season if his career is going to survive this whole thing.

 

[Lunatik]

So we can't possibly pay Gaudreau more than 7M because we could get hit with a bonus penalty next year of .6 - 1M?

Knowing Engelland, Smid, and Wideman are completely off the cap next year when that penalty would apply and we can change what we're paying our 6,7,and 8 Dmen.
Putting guys like Bouma and Stajan + a Dman if we sign another one on the Vegas expansion draft list.

And that we'll have multiple prospects in the system ready for those jobs.

It would be insane to decide 7.2-7.5 is far too much for an elite offensive player and get rid of him in order to accommodate cap problems we likely won't even have next season. On the low-chance assumption that both Janko and Tkachuk will play enough games to reach their bonuses.

You are making up reasons and arguments to show that you know better about how to deal with Gaudreau this could all easily go into the trade Gaudreau thread.

It's all garbage, this so called cap trouble is a minor problem at most.

This is how things look so far, I have listed all guys I think I locks to make the team.

# | PLAYER NAME | AAV
1 | Elliott, Brian | $2,500,000
31 | Johnson, Chad | $1,700,000
5 | Giordano, Mark | $6,750,000
27 | Hamilton, Dougie | $5,750,000
6 | Wideman, Dennis | $5,250,000
7 | Brodie, TJ | $4,650,000
15 | Smid, Ladislav | $3,500,000
29 | Engelland, Deryk | $2,916,667
3 | Jokipakka, Jyrki | $900,000
93 | Bennett, Sam | $925,000
79 | Ferland, Micheal | $825,000
67 | Frolik, Michael | $4,300,000
52 | Bollig, Brandon | $1,250,000
39 | Chiasson, Alex | $800,000
36 | Brouwer, Troy | $4,500,000
23 | Monahan, Sean | $6,375,000
11 | Backlund, Mikael | $3,575,000
13 | Gaudreau, Johnny |
17 | Bouma, Lance | $2,200,000
18 | Stajan, Matt | $3,125,000
- | |
- | |
- | |
N/A | Buyout Penalties | $1,050,000
N/A | 2015-16 Bonus overage | $630,500
| Total Cap Used | $63,472,167
| Remaining Cap Space | $9,527,833

Including Raymond's buyout and the small cap overage, we have a little over $9.5 million to sign Gaudreau and fill up to 3 more roster spots (3 forwards). If Gaudreau signs for $7.5 million, that still leaves $2 million to fill 2-3 more spots.

So this "cap problem" could essentially be solved by running with a 22 man roster instead of 23

 

[Dack]

Until Smid is on the LTIR that is a hope and a dream as we saw last year. Smid is skating and is intending to be at training camp from all speculation.

Next year Calgary loses Wideman, Smid and Engelland which is a good thing but it is likely Calgary will have to go after a UFA like Shattenkirk costing in the neighborhood of 6 M per. If Elliot does not work out and Gilles is not ready shooting for Bishop may be in the plans at 7-8 M.

If Sam produces 60 plus points there is another 6M. Jokipakka 2.5M, Ferland $2 M, Gilles, Chiasson, Vey

That is over 24.5M which takes the cap to 69M without Johnny's contract. Things are much tighter than it appears. Granted the Flames should be considered a bona fide contender.

The long and short of it is the cap situation is just going to get tighter and tighter.

If Johnny would have been eligible for an offersheet this year he may have already been traded like Saad or Hamilton because of the cap situation.

Why would we sign two high-end free agents in the same offseason knowing the implications it will have for our cap? Why would we need Shattenkirk considering he is the exact same type of player as Hamilton? We would've traded for Bishop if we were willing to agree to his contract terms seeing as it was reported multiple times that he had already been traded to us and Bishop himself thought it was close. Jokkipakka is like a #6 D man who's still an RFA unless he has a much better season than last year he's not getting 2.5 million. Finally Gaudreau would not have been traded if he were offersheet eligible that's something a team that thinks they're a contender does in an attempt to save their core (Saad) and It was shown afterwards that Hamilton wanted out of Boston. All indication's are that at least right now Gaudreau want's to play in Calgary. Giving out bad contract's to depth players is what is and will continue to hurt this team cap wise not paying our best offensive player.

 

[SKRusty]

It's all garbage, this so called cap trouble is a minor problem at most.

This is how things look so far, I have listed all guys I think I locks to make the team.

# | PLAYER NAME | AAV
1 | Elliott, Brian | $2,500,000
31 | Johnson, Chad | $1,700,000
5 | Giordano, Mark | $6,750,000
27 | Hamilton, Dougie | $5,750,000
6 | Wideman, Dennis | $5,250,000
7 | Brodie, TJ | $4,650,000
15 | Smid, Ladislav | $3,500,000
29 | Engelland, Deryk | $2,916,667
3 | Jokipakka, Jyrki | $900,000
93 | Bennett, Sam | $925,000
79 | Ferland, Micheal | $825,000
67 | Frolik, Michael | $4,300,000
52 | Bollig, Brandon | $1,250,000
39 | Chiasson, Alex | $800,000
36 | Brouwer, Troy | $4,500,000
23 | Monahan, Sean | $6,375,000
11 | Backlund, Mikael | $3,575,000
13 | Gaudreau, Johnny |
17 | Bouma, Lance | $2,200,000
18 | Stajan, Matt | $3,125,000
- | |
- | |
- | |
N/A | Buyout Penalties | $1,050,000
N/A | 2015-16 Bonus overage | $630,500
| Total Cap Used | $63,472,167
| Remaining Cap Space | $9,527,833

Including Raymond's buyout and the small cap overage, we have a little over $9.5 million to sign Gaudreau and fill up to 3 more roster spots (3 forwards). If Gaudreau signs for $7.5 million, that still leaves $2 million to fill 2-3 more spots.

So this "cap problem" could essentially be solved by running with a 22 man roster instead of 23

The underlying problem with that theory is the arrogance involved in hypothesizing and having confidence in the numbers stated and the roster that is projected.

Last season with all the Flames accountants, lawyers, managers and consultants the Flames still inadvertently went over the cap costing almost 2/3's of a million dollars in fines against this years cap.

In order to not take fines again next year Calgary realistically has 6 to 6.5 M total to sign Johnny and fill a couple roster spots.

Even if the Flames move Wideman (for nothing) in the first week of the season Calgary will be hard against the cap. And we all know that isn't happening.

Impose a fine of up to $5 million in the case of a Circumvention by
a Club or Club Actor, but in no circumstances shall such fine be
less than $1 million against any Club or Club Actor if such party is
found to have violated Article 50 of this Agreement. If such a fine
is assessed against a Club (except in the case of a financial
reporting violation), that Club's Payroll Room shall also be
reduced by such amount for the following League Year;
Impose a fine against a Player of up to the lesser of $1 million or
twenty-five (25%) percent of a Player's Paragraph 1 Salary in the
case of a Circumvention by a Player or Player Actor, but in no
circumstances shall such fine be below the lesser of $250,000 or
twenty-five (25%) percent of the Player's Paragraph 1 Salary;
Direct a Club to forfeit draft picks (the number, placement, and
League Year of which shall be determined in the Commissioner's
sole discretion);
Declare a forfeiture of any NHL Game(s) determined to have been
affected by a Circumvention;
Void any SPC, or any extension of an SPC, between any Player
and any Club when both the Player or Player Actor and the Club or
Club Actor are found to have committed such a violation with
respect to such SPC or extension;
Suspend any Club employee, Player, or Certified Agent involved
in such a violation for a period of time determined in the sole
discretion of the Commissioner, the System Arbitrator, or the
NHLPA, respectively.

The only reason the Flames likely were not fined 1-5 mill is the overage on bonuses and O'Brien's buyout status were not intentional. If the Flames intentionally ran tight against the cap with no allowances for bonuses and the penalty gets severe because it is intentional cap circumvention.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

So basically you are saying the Flames can't sign Gaudreau because they need cap space to sign a high profile free agent next summer, like Shattenkirk...

 

[SKRusty]

So basically you are saying the Flames can't sign Gaudreau because they need cap space to sign a high profile free agent next summer, like Shattenkirk...

This is not specific to Gaudreau.

You guys got to stop thinking I have something against Johnny. I do not. He is a very exciting dynamic player. I may not see him in the same light as you guys potential wise but I do see him as incredibly valuable.

My issues come down to finances and having the appropriate budget to compete for a Stanley Cup. Last year when Francis and others were declaring Gio's worth at 8.5M plus I said it would be better to let him go than sign a contract like that. That is what I am saying now about Johnny if Calgary is going to compete for a cup in the next 5 years.

Everybody mentions how much cap money the Flames have next year but that is not entirely true as all those contracts have to be replaced and Sam Bennett has to be signed.

From this point on every contract dollar matters if we want the Flames to be perennial contenders.

I commend MM for doing his tables but the data is not 100% accurate and there are serious consequences if the cap is not adhered to. Can you imagine having 5 million less available for the cap next year because the Flames were judged to intentionally circumvented the cap?

I cheer for the Flames and the team takes precedence over my views on players.

Iggy was our best player in franchise history and we never won a cup with him in part because the cap was not managed well. We only paid Iggy 7M per so what logic is there in paying a third year player that we allowed to burn a year on his ELC to get him to this point a year faster market value or higher.

Management let Johnny burn that year to get to this point faster and there appears to be little appreciation for that concession.

 

[Skobel24]

Until Smid is on the LTIR that is a hope and a dream as we saw last year. Smid is skating and is intending to be at training camp from all speculation.

Next year Calgary loses Wideman, Smid and Engelland which is a good thing but it is likely Calgary will have to go after a UFA like Shattenkirk costing in the neighborhood of 6 M per. If Elliot does not work out and Gilles is not ready shooting for Bishop may be in the plans at 7-8 M.

If Sam produces 60 plus points there is another 6M. Jokipakka 2.5M, Ferland $2 M, Gilles, Chiasson, Vey

That is over 24.5M which takes the cap to 69M without Johnny's contract. Things are much tighter than it appears. Granted the Flames should be considered a bona fide contender.

The long and short of it is the cap situation is just going to get tighter and tighter.

If Johnny would have been eligible for an offersheet this year he may have already been traded like Saad or Hamilton because of the cap situation.

That is not likely. It's highly unlikely. Calgary is not going to go out and acquire another dman around the 6m mark. I really doubt Shattenkirk would consider Calgary either.

 

[Lunatik]

This whole thing is ridiculous and is the definition of making a mountain out of a mole hill. I have never seen anyone go so overboard over $630,500. The Flames currently have almost $30 million in cap space next year, even if they use some of that for overage bonuses, it is not going to hurt the team.

 

[SKRusty]

That is not likely. It's highly unlikely. Calgary is not going to go out and acquire another dman around the 6m mark. I really doubt Shattenkirk would consider Calgary either.

Dmitry Kulikov Buffalo Sabres UFA 25 D $4,500,000 $4,333,333
Kevin Shattenkirk St. Louis Blues UFA 27 D $5,200,000 $4,250,000
Michael Stone Arizona Coyotes UFA 26 D $4,000,000 $4,000,000
Michael Del Zotto Philadelphia Flyers UFA 26 D $4,000,000 $3,875,000
Johnny Oduya Dallas Stars M-NTC UFA 34 D $3,750,000 $3,750,000
Cody Franson Buffalo Sabres UFA 29 D $2,650,000 $3,325,000

Here are the defensemen available for next years UFA class. It is very thin and if nobody within the organization steps up to take the spot beside Hamilton it means the Flames will likely have to choose someone from this list and other than Oduya and Franson the player is likely to cost 5M per minimum.

I am really really hoping Kylington can stop taking silly risks so there may be the opportunity to fill from within but that is a very optimistic view.

 

[tmurfin]

Here are the defensemen available for next years UFA class. It is very thin and if nobody within the organization steps up to take the spot beside Hamilton it means the Flames will likely have to choose someone from this list and other than Oduya and Franson the player is likely to cost 5M per minimum.

I am really really hoping Kylington can stop taking silly risks so there may be the opportunity to fill from within but that is a very optimistic view.

We don't need a 6m dollar #4. Plenty of cheaper options.

 

[SKRusty]

This whole thing is ridiculous and is the definition of making a mountain out of a mole hill. I have never seen anyone go so overboard over $630,500. The Flames currently have almost $30 million in cap space next year, even if they use some of that for overage bonuses, it is not going to hurt the team.

That's the same attitude Leaf fans had when they signed Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul, and Clarkson. Everybody saw where that took them.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

We are fine cap wise...As long as we don't hand out any more UFA deals...Which is actually what you are suggesting to do

 

[tmurfin]

That's the same attitude Leaf fans had when they signed Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul, and Clarkson. Everybody saw where that took them.

Yet you propose we sign a 6m dollar #4 dman? I don't get it. Are you against UFA spending or for it?

 

[Lunatik]

Yet you propose we sign a 6m dollar #4 dman? I don't get it. Are you against UFA spending or for it?

He's against rookie bonuses and Gaudreau from what I can see