Canucks Management & Ownership Discussion | Part 24

[DanCloutiersFiveHole]

He wouldn't be the only recent Canucks GM to spend big on playoff duds.

Because two wrongs make a right? That's your actual defense?

 

[ProstheticConscience]

I like Baertschi, but right now he'd need to look a long way up to see Raymond circa 2010/2011. That Raymond would easily be a slam-dunk for our 2nd line and 1st PK unit.

I'm now seriously wondering how many people can actually remember even five years ago.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

not at all.

raymond is the worst kind of player good when it doesnt matter. invisible and falling down when it does (Scf)

is this the same line of "logic" like benning's quote "we'll miss seguin's speed...in the regular season"? like somehow being good in the regular season is a negative?
and even if raymond is "only good when it doesnt matter" does that makes him "the worst hockey player ever", even worst than guys that didnt score 25 goals or 50+ pts IN THEIR CAREER? yikes.
reading this thread always make me sad.

 

[DL44]

I like Baertschi, but right now he'd need to look a long way up to see Raymond circa 2010/2011. That Raymond would easily be a slam-dunk for our 2nd line and 1st PK unit.

I'm now seriously wondering how many people can actually remember even five years ago.

People love to revise history around here.

Like a plague.

Raymond's appreciation thread from 2013...
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1349161&highlight=mason+raymond

On my phone.. otherwise I would be cutting and pasting away.

Tone changes with ebs and flows over 8 pgs... but the tone on that first page is being selectively ignored. .

 

[CanaFan]

People love to revise history around here.

Like a plague.

Raymond's appreciation thread from 2013...
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1349161&highlight=mason+raymond

On my phone.. otherwise I would be cutting and pasting away.

Tone changes with ebs and flows over 8 pgs... but the tone on that first page is being selectively ignored. .

Maybe but that is the nature of context. I know I was fairly critical of Raymond at the time - his habit of button hooking at the opponent's blue line and then falling down especially vexed me - but then he was merely the least impressive part of a President's Trophy and SCF team. Next to prime Sedins, Kesler, Burrows, Higgins, Samuelsson, Torres, Malhotra, etc he was an easy target to ***** about. But put him on the 2015-16 Canucks next to Vey, Etem, Granlund, Prust, etc and he'd probably be a fan fave, esp if we drafted and developed him again rather than overpaid in some trade. Take Baertschi, who is pretty well regarded by most fans today but put him on the 2009-2012 team and he'd be the target of most people's frustrations and calls for an upgrade on the 2nd line.

So if you consider the environment that Raymond was in then vs what we are watching (and discussing) now you'll comprehend the difference in tone.

 

[Upoil]

Counting is hard.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

People love to revise history around here.

Like a plague.

Raymond's appreciation thread from 2013...
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1349161&highlight=mason+raymond

On my phone.. otherwise I would be cutting and pasting away.

Tone changes with ebs and flows over 8 pgs... but the tone on that first page is being selectively ignored. .

Counting to five is really hard, huh?

 

[JuniorNelson]

not at all.

raymond is the worst kind of player good when it doesnt matter. invisible and falling down when it does (Scf)

Raymond was frustrating. He did flourish in the easy going. I think he tried hard. He is one of a long list of Canucks who didn't get any on ice protection and eventually wore down.

In the new Harry Potter, a character asks of the thirty six year old Potter, Low many have died for the one who lived? Implying Harry stands on a pile of bodies.

Raymond was one of the bodies. Canucks were passive and reliant on penalties in those days.

 

[F A N]

is this the same line of "logic" like benning's quote "we'll miss seguin's speed...in the regular season"? like somehow being good in the regular season is a negative?
and even if raymond is "only good when it doesnt matter" does that makes him "the worst hockey player ever", even worst than guys that didnt score 25 goals or 50+ pts IN THEIR CAREER? yikes.
reading this thread always make me sad.

Why give meaning to Benning's words when there is a more rational interpretation and then scream irrationality? Before Benning became the Canucks' GM, I'm sure that Seguin quote was interpreted as an indictment on Seguin's playoff performance or lack thereof.

Teams that are looking to win the Cup needs guys who perform in the playoffs. Teams looking to make the playoff can afford guys who are "only good when it doesn't matter." And YES Raymond can be worse than guys that didn't score 25 goals or 50+ points in their career and besides, Raymond has only put up those numbers once.

Raymond's skillset was really good back in the day. He was really fast. Really skilled. Had a good shot, and he can pass the puck. He just never rounded out his offensive game and became a perimeter player. Had he played with Demitra (RIP) rather than Kesler for more years things may have been different, but Raymond was simply less than the sum of his parts.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Because two wrongs make a right? That's your actual defense?

What wrongs? I don't recall other GMs who made worse mistakes at more critical times get this kind of endless treatment.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

I like Baertschi, but right now he'd need to look a long way up to see Raymond circa 2010/2011. That Raymond would easily be a slam-dunk for our 2nd line and 1st PK unit.

I'm now seriously wondering how many people can actually remember even five years ago.

Raymond was gifted a top 6 spot on an offensive juggernaut

 

[DL44]

Counting to five is really hard, huh?

????
What's with the response?

 

[JayBeautiful]

What wrongs? I don't recall other GMs who made worse mistakes at more critical times get this kind of endless treatment.

Maybe some GMs have made more critical mistakes it's just that Benning's mistakes are endless

 

[Hit the post]

What wrongs? I don't recall other GMs who made worse mistakes at more critical times get this kind of endless treatment.

You finish THIRD LAST in the league (gifted that spot as is it really that difficult to beat out the Oilers and the Leafs [the later who deliberately tanked by offloading EVERYONE they could during the season]?) - you should understandably get *NO SLACK*.

Raymond was gifted a top 6 spot on an offensive juggernaut

Yeah right...like a coach like Vigneault would gift a spot to a forward that didn't belong there (and no, Hodgson didn't count as that was only a temporary move to pump-up his value before dealing him - or in cases of multiple injuries that would require guys moving up in the lineup).

 

[CanaFan]

Raymond was gifted a top 6 spot on an offensive juggernaut

Over who?

 

[canuckfan75]

For all intents and purposes. The Canucks are shut down till Labour Day

Jim Benning is in Portland and his summer home... Trevor Linden is biking somewhere for a month.. Back on Tuesday September 6


So do not expect any news for the next month.

 

[CanaFan]

For all intents and purposes. The Canucks are shut down till Labour Day

Jim Benning is in Portland and his summer home... Trevor Linden is biking somewhere for a month.. Back on Tuesday September 6


So do not expect any news for the next month.

No complaints really. Would be awesome if they just stayed there.

 

[y2kcanucks]

No complaints really. Would be awesome if they just stayed there.

This.

Canucks fans can breathe and relax a little for the next month knowing the Canucks won't do anything stupid.

Now if these people were told not to come back to the team I would be a lot happier.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

sweet. this is the month when francesco gets bored at work and starts emailing other GMs.

after he accidentally trades all of our useful and promising players he's never heard of before for staal brothers you think he'll sell the mess he made?

 

[Samzilla]

guys, that just means weisbrod is in charge while JB and TL are on break...don't relax too much just yet

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Over who?

Precisely- over who? There was no competition for top 6 spotss that's why Higgins and Raymond were gifted time there.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Why give meaning to Benning's words when there is a more rational interpretation and then scream irrationality? Before Benning became the Canucks' GM, I'm sure that Seguin quote was interpreted as an indictment on Seguin's playoff performance or lack thereof.

Teams that are looking to win the Cup needs guys who perform in the playoffs. Teams looking to make the playoff can afford guys who are "only good when it doesn't matter." And YES Raymond can be worse than guys that didn't score 25 goals or 50+ points in their career and besides, Raymond has only put up those numbers once.

Raymond's skillset was really good back in the day. He was really fast. Really skilled. Had a good shot, and he can pass the puck. He just never rounded out his offensive game and became a perimeter player. Had he played with Demitra (RIP) rather than Kesler for more years things may have been different, but Raymond was simply less than the sum of his parts.

So what if seguin isn't the best playoff performer at age 21? You trade him because he isn't Jonathan Toews? Seguin is still an awesome player and can GET YOU TO THE PLAYOFF! Wouldn't you first need to MAKE the playoff before you can win the cup? That's kind of why Boston traded Joe Thornton in the first place, both trades doesn't look so good for the bruins.

As to the second paragraph, the OP made a statement that 'Raymond is the worst hockey player ever'. I don't think you, or anybody, can make a logical reasoning to support that statement. OP didn't say 'Raymond is a bad fit for the 2nd LW spot for a cup contending team'. He flat out said Raymond is the worst hockey player ever. So we are talking about different points here.

 

[racerjoe]

I have to say, I'm starting to see some method in the madness. I don't agree with most of the trades made, and Benning definitely has his eye set on certain people who he is willing to pay whatever price to acquire, but saying that I think I can see what he's trying to do.

He's building from the back out, and we're starting to resemble the Preds of a few years back. When the Sedins eventually retire we look like we'll have a very good goalie and defence and some good complimentary forwards. Teams like that usually don't do too well, so it'll just take a year or two of calamity and we should be sitting pretty.

That said, I'm probably just displaying Pareidolia and seeing patterns in things that aren't really there.

You are excited over this defense? That is seen as one of the weakest points of this team.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Precisely- over who? There was no competition for top 6 spotss that's why Higgins and Raymond were gifted time there.

I guess it didn't work out too bad considering we won back to back President's trophies.

This is also what happens when you're a cap team. You need those $2.5M wingers who put up 25 goals and 50 points. Not sure what you're expecting...more Granlunds and Dorsetts maybe?

 

[y2kcanucks]

I have to say, I'm starting to see some method in the madness. I don't agree with most of the trades made, and Benning definitely has his eye set on certain people who he is willing to pay whatever price to acquire, but saying that I think I can see what he's trying to do.

He's building from the back out, and we're starting to resemble the Preds of a few years back. When the Sedins eventually retire we look like we'll have a very good goalie and defence and some good complimentary forwards. Teams like that usually don't do too well, so it'll just take a year or two of calamity and we should be sitting pretty.

That said, I'm probably just displaying Pareidolia and seeing patterns in things that aren't really there.

Uh...the Preds had good defensemen. The Canucks don't.