Can Jagr ever make it a "Big 5"?

[Batis]

Hart shares are pretty biased towards modern times when there has been much more consensus among the voters. I know Hockey Outsider himself is the first to point this out in some other thread. FWIW, Jagr's behind Beliveau and Bobby Hull in terms of top 3 and top 5 finishes.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=104179935&postcount=3

Yes it seems to be pretty clear that the list is biased towards modern players. But Jagr being first (at the moment) among modern players is pretty impressive still (or third behind Gretzky and Lemieux depending on where you draw the line for modern). And Jagr is 7th all-time when it comes to top 5 finishes. Which seems like a pretty strong voting record to me.

Edit: Just to be clear I am not by any means saying that Jagr ever will make it a Big 5 or that his Hart record is the greatest ever outside of the Big 4 just that I feel that his strong Hart record seems to get somewhat forgotten at times.

 

[pappyline]

Indeed. Esposito's unique talents as a Playmaker were never fully replaced, stunting, hindering what Bobby Hull could have accomplished. He (Hull) knew that at the time of The Trade, extremely upset about it... selfishly depending upon how judgmental one might wish to be in this specific instance.... Big Phil going from sidekick funny man, guy paid to feed the Charismatic Superstar to becoming one himself in Boston. Rather like when Jerry Lewis broke away from Dean Martin... Jerry more than surpassing his partner & Sidekick Status to the sexy well dressed guy with the smooth lines who was scoring all the time.. which was what Phil himself ultimately became and pretty much overnight. It was always there yet in Chicago under Pilous, a great old-school hockey mind sure enough but a One Trick Pony, wasnt ever going to happen. Shame. Rudy had the makings of a really good smoke. That team should have been busting Montreal & Toronto into fragments.

Coulda/Shoulda/Woulda huh?.... oh well.

First of all Pilous was gone by the time Espo arrived.

I can't believe people think Hull needed Espo.

I know Hull didn't like to see Espo go. They were friends as well as linemates. I don't think it really hurt Hull much though. I remember Espo as a Hawk, big awkward guy who really couldn't keep up with Hull. He would basically follow him up the ice and pick up garbage points. Espo did have good hands though. Hull was going to get his points no matter who his centre was. Hulls stats might have dipped a bit but that was due to Chicago adapting a more defensive style of play. They wanted Hull to patrol his wing like the lesser lights. Bit ridiculous, in my mind. Best goal scorer in history & you want to hold him back.

Sure Espo did better in Boston. Thats because they let him hang out in the slot & fire pucks. I know he got a lot of assists but I could never figure out why. I remember him as a shoot first guy.

 

[Hardyvan123]

But the fact is that Hull did miss him. Ever heard of Hull calling Esposito his "right arm"?

https://books.google.fi/books?id=h1zLEKjpl_cC&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=hull+esposito+%22right+arm%22&source=bl&ots=MhLQMpOKoy&sig=KeL-o1eu4mVHRyL8e_2-4mnD1yU&hl=fi&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwic9rWmkJXLAhXDCJoKHYCxA5AQ6AEIIDAA#v=onepage&q=hull%20esposito%20%22right%20arm%22&f=false

Like I stated above he still lead the NHL in goals those next 2 years, in fact in the 2nd year he hit all career highs in goals and points.

It's pretty hard to say that Hull missed him, in the sense that his production suffered as a result of the trade.

 

[Voight]

Should pass Howe by the end of the year, Messier by the end of next season.

 

[member 51464]

Jagr hitting 2,000 points would make me indescribably happy.

 

[JAS 39 Gripen]

No. The big 4 is only for good ol canadians

 

[Voight]

Jagr hitting 2,000 points would make me indescribably happy.

Certainly doable.

 

[daigle]

If you could alter and improve Jagr's career, what would you do in order to make him fit in "Big 5" (or even top 4 or 3)?

 

[Theokritos]

If you could alter and improve Jagr's career, what would you do in order to make him fit in "Big 5" (or even top 4 or 3)?

My choice would be one of the following two:
-In his prime he routinely outscores the rest of the league (minus Lemieux when playing) by the margins (same or similar) Gretzky and Lemieux outscored the field in their prime.
-Keep his actual offensive production but combine it with notable defensive play.

 

[Hardyvan123]

My choice would be one of the following two:
-In his prime he routinely outscores the rest of the league (minus Lemieux when playing) by the margins (same or similar) Gretzky and Lemieux outscored the field in their prime.
-Keep his actual offensive production but combine it with notable defensive play.

Pretty high bar considering Howe doesn't do this either.

It's not like Jagr has been poor defensively either but notable defensive play compared to waht Gretzky and Mario of the average top line winger in his era?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

If you could alter and improve Jagr's career, what would you do in order to make him fit in "Big 5" (or even top 4 or 3)?

Win Art Rosses by Gretzky/Lemieux margins. And ideally a few Conn Smythes. Basically, be the clear-cut best player in the league, something he never really was.

The fact is that Lemieux and Jagr's primes overlapped, so those two are easy to compare, and Have wasn't close to the same player as Lemieux.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Pretty high bar considering Howe doesn't do this either.

It's not like Jagr has been poor defensively either but notable defensive play compared to waht Gretzky and Mario of the average top line winger in his era?

Howe outscored the rest of the league by Lemieuxesque margins, as has been posted on this forum many times. Somewhat weaker league, but he also combined it with a decent all-round game (I don't think Howe was great all-round until past his offensive prime).

And yes, Jagr was poor defensively. So were Gretzky and Lemieux.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Lemieux dominated an international league. Howe a Canadian league.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Lemieux dominated an international league. Howe a Canadian league.

The NHL was primarily Canadian until 1993 or so...

Guess Lemieux's 1989 was against weak competion.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Howe outscored the rest of the league by Lemieuxesque margins, as has been posted on this forum many times. Somewhat weaker league, but he also combined it with a decent all-round game (I don't think Howe was great all-round until past his offensive prime).

And yes, Jagr was poor defensively. So were Gretzky and Lemieux.

The thing is that Jagr has very good margins of victory as well but instead of just competing with the same pool as Howe he has to compete with 3 superstars from BC and guys from Europe, thus making the bar higher.

Also variance in a 6 team league is going to be alot less than a 30 team one.

Once again as stated up thread Jagr outscores the next best guy by 20 points over his prime of 7 seasons from 94-95 to 2000-2001

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...c4comp=gt&c4val=&threshhold=5&order_by=points

Then he has 3 down years in Washington where he is actually 5th overall in scoring, along with his 2nd place with the NYR and a 8 and 9th in top 10 scoring.

In addition to the above total of that he has another 9 years, almost all of it as a first line player where his results aren't HHOF like but of a really decent forward still, not some guy hanging on.


The only thing really keeping Jagr from a good case in making a "big 5" is the refusal to acknowledge parts of his career or just push them aside.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The thing is that Jagr has very good margins of victory as well but instead of just competing with the same pool as Howe he has to compete with 3 superstars from BC and guys from Europe, thus making the bar higher.

Also variance in a 6 team league is going to be alot less than a 30 team one.

Once again as stated up thread Jagr outscores the next best guy by 20 points over his prime of 7 seasons from 94-95 to 2000-2001

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...c4comp=gt&c4val=&threshhold=5&order_by=points

Then he has 3 down years in Washington where he is actually 5th overall in scoring, along with his 2nd place with the NYR and a 8 and 9th in top 10 scoring.

In addition to the above total of that he has another 9 years, almost all of it as a first line player where his results aren't HHOF like but of a really decent forward still, not some guy hanging on.


The only thing really keeping Jagr from a good case in making a "big 5" is the refusal to acknowledge parts of his career or just push them aside.

And yet Jagr's margins weren't close to those by Gretzky or Lemieux.

 

[Hardyvan123]

And yet Jagr's margins weren't close to those by Gretzky or Lemieux.

No player in history is close to them numbers wise but too much is made of this as well IMO.

Mario and Wayne are both all time greats, Gretzky is my number 1 guy, but a lot of those points are piling on points in run and gun games and for the most part against goalies that really weren't very good.

The video game type of margins they have inflate their greatness.

we see this in the 70's as well with Robinson and Orr having ridiculous plus minus totals, in part to beating up on teams like the Washington Capitals more than other teams did.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

No player in history is close to them numbers wise but too much is made of this as well IMO.

Mario and Wayne are both all time greats, Gretzky is my number 1 guy, but a lot of those points are piling on points in run and gun games and for the most part against goalies that really weren't very good.

The video game type of margins they have inflate their greatness.

we see this in the 70's as well with Robinson and Orr having ridiculous plus minus totals, in part to beating up on teams like the Washington Capitals more than other teams did.

Compared to his peers, Gordie Howe is. You'll respond by slagging the quality of the NHL when Howe played, and the response to that is that no other forward before Gretzky came close to dominating his peers the way Howe did.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Compared to his peers, Gordie Howe is. You'll respond by slagging the quality of the NHL when Howe played, and the response to that is that no other forward before Gretzky came close to dominating his peers the way Howe did.

In a 6 team league there just isn't going to be alot of variance either.

I'm not slagging the quality of the NHL in 06 times, just pointing out the differences but if you want to ignore them feel free.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

In a 6 team league there just isn't going to be alot of variance either.

I'm not slagging the quality of the NHL in 06 times, just pointing out the differences but if you want to ignore them feel free.

And yet nobody was close to what Howe was doing in that 6 team league.

 

[Voight]

The NHL was primarily Canadian until 1993 or so...

Guess Lemieux's 1989 was against weak competion.

Yea, howe also played against all those crappy players like Richard, Beliveau, Hull & Mikita.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

The NHL was primarily Canadian until 1993 or so...

Guess Lemieux's 1989 was against weak competion.

European talent was at it's peak in 95-96 and lemieux put his peers through a shredder.

 

[daigle]

Anyone here who watched 45 year old Howe play, who can make a comparison?

 

[Hardyvan123]

Anyone here who watched 45 year old Howe play, who can make a comparison?

I was to young and at any rate WHA games weren't available on TV.

It's going to be an extremely hard comp as Howe was playing in the WHA when they had 12 teams and the NHL had 16 and the European invasion, and explosion of top notch american talent hadn't really arrived yet.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

In a 6 team league there just isn't going to be alot of variance either.

I'm not slagging the quality of the NHL in 06 times, just pointing out the differences but if you want to ignore them feel free.

Literally no one on this forum ignores differences between different eras.