C Nico Hischier - Halifax Mooseheads, QMJHL (2017 Draft)

[JA]

The point was to statistics. Obviously, scouts referenced his previous season, but they liked him more based on the eye test, not an appeal to statistics. 8 out of 10 scouts didn't choose him because he had great numbers, they did because they liked his complete all-around game they saw last year.

I'm not so sure. On the broadcast, Bob specifically referred twice to Patrick's point totals last season as the reason that he remains first overall.

Here is the transcript:

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/patrick-1-in-mckenzie-s-mid-season-draft-rankings~1046950
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/hischier-a-close-second-behind-patrick~1046949

ANDI PETRILLO: Well, for the first time on this show, we're going to be taking you Top Prospects 1 through 31 thanks to the Las Vegas Golden Knights. But we always begin with Number One, and despite playing in only eleven games because of injury, the projected Number One is still Nolan Patrick.

[Video montage]

PETRILLO: Well, heading into this season with the Brandon Wheat Kings, Nolan Patrick was named the captain coming off a strong season winning the WHL Championship last year, but Bob, as mentioned, a lot of injuries here where he's only played in 11 games, but what still makes him a strong Number One?

BOB MCKENZIE: Well, you're right, Andi. And it's a testament to his talent and his potential that after only playing eleven games so far this season, that he's still very much a strong Number One, that eight of the ten scouts we surveyed have him as Number One. And that certainly goes back to the 40-goal, 100-point season that he had last year with the Brandon Wheat Kings.

Now, he did miss most of October, all of November, all of December, with that groin injury, but it appears to be behind him now, so the scouts aren't concerned about that part of it. Now, he's not Connor McDavid, and he's not Jack Eichel, and he's not Auston Matthews, he's not Patrik Laine. But because he was only four days off being eligible for last year's draft, [Graphic on screen] he was kind of evaluated against Matthews, and he was kind of evaluated against Laine.

If he had been available last year, my guess is he would have gone somewhere in the 4, or 5, 6, 7, 8 range. But the 40-goal, 100-point season stands him in very good stead, and that's the reason why he's been able to withstand the fact that he hasn't played many games this season.

PETRILLO: Yeah. Players have to be 18 years of age before or on September 15, so as you mentioned, Auston Matthews missed it by two days. Nolan Patrick by four days. Now, when it comes to a lot of these young players, we don't know them all that well. We'd like to take a look at current NHL players, their style of play, and who we can compare them to to get a better grasp of their style. So, as we bring in Craig Button -- who would you say Nolan Patrick most resembles in the NHL?

CRAIG BUTTON: Well, Bob just talked about who he doesn't resemble. To me, he resembles Eric Staal, a real top-end number one center who's had great success in his career. [footage on screen] And Nolan Patrick is a player that can use the whole ice in the offensive zone to create offense. But he's interested in getting into the middle of the ice, around the net. He's got incredibly fast hands and he's got the ability to move right-to-left, left-to-right, real quickly. But he's got that exceptional vision.

Here he is undertanding where the puck has to go, and bang, it's delivered there. The eye-hand coordination, exceptional. Again, getting into those areas around the net and attacking where he can break down defenses. But he's also got an excellent shot. So, he's not a one-trick pony; he's a player that can beat you in a lot of different ways. You think about Eric Staal coming down that wing and firing it high over goalies' shoulders or gloves. It's pretty impressive, and so is Nolan Patrick.

PETRILLO: All right. Let's get you to Number Two. His first year on North American ice, but it didn't take him long to get used to the smaller ice. Number two is from Switzerland: Nico Hischier.

[Video montage]

PETRILLO: Well, if there's one thing we can say about Nico, he did have a great World Juniors as well, only seventeen years of age. A lot of people started to hear about his name then.

MCKENZIE: Well, you know, Andi, it's been a remarkable rise for this kid. And, he first really kind of burst on the scene at the 2015 Ivan Hlinka as an underager in the U-18 tournament a couple of summers ago. He was very good at that point, but then he went back and he played in Switzerland and he played big-ice hockey, not a particularly strong league, and people kind of noticed him but didn't really think he was an elite guy by any stretch. He didn't have a great Hlinka tournament this past summer, but people were well aware of him on a weak Swiss team. But from the moment that he showed up in Halifax this year, to get 33 goals in the 40 games, to step up the way that he did at the World Junior Championship, he was really taking things by storm.

He's filled out; he's gotten a lot more physically mature over the last little while. He's now over 6 ft; he's 176 pounds, looks to be getting stronger. He's got great agility, he's got great speed, he's got tremendous, elite hockey sense to be able to make plays and score goals with authority. So it has been a remarkable rise. And, I mean, he wasn't even in our Top 15 in the preseason. [graphic on screen] That's where he was slotted in, Number Sixteen as a matter of fact. And you can see the biggest rise we've ever had from preseason to mid-season when Mikhail Grigorenko went from 6 to 2, so what Hischier's doing, from our ranking, is unprecedented.

PETRILLO: Yeah, he ended up putting 4 goals and 7 points, by the way, in 5 games at those World Juniors, so he is making a name for himself, but that doesn't necessarily mean people know how to spell his name. [Graphic on screen] So, this is correct. This is with his team, the Halifax Mooseheads. [Graphic on screen] This was, then, at the Prospects game. When you take a look at his name here, looks like we're kind of missing something. I before E, except after C. That's usually the rule you want to remember. So he's definitely come a long way. We'll be hearing what he thinks that his chances are of being picked Number One in just a little bit, but what do you think they are?

MCKENZIE: Well, he's gonna challenge Nolan Patrick. I don't think there's any question about that. But he's still got some ways to go here when you've got 8 of 10 scouts that have Nolan Patrick as the Number One guy in the mid-season rankings. But [impressed tone, head nod] there's a chance here.

And what should be stated very clearly is that these two players are a cut above everybody else. There's a big drop off after Number Two in this draft. This is a two-man race. And right now, Patrick's well in the lead, but Nico Hischier has served notice that he can be a worthy opponent and a challenger for Patrick's Number One status.

PETRILLO: All right. Craig, Nolan Patrick -- you said the comparable there was Eric Staal, so who do we take a look at then when we look at Nico Hischier?

BUTTON: Well, for me, it's Henrik Zetterberg of the Detroit Red Wings -- that kind of subtle brilliance; that ability to make plays that don't seem to be there, but he's smart. He's smart without the puck. [Video on screen] Here he is in an overtime game at the World Junior tournament and he strips Jakub Zboril, a first-rounder of the Boston Bruins, and then he just opens up the goaltender, and boom, it's right there. But he also has the ability to freeze defenders. Charlie McAvoy is coming out to defend him; Charlie McAvoy is left behind like a pylon -- and those were Charlie McAvoy's words, not mine.

His speed; his ability to change speeds; here he is again in the same game against the U.S. He doesn't jam up, but then he recognizes, "where is there an opportunity?" For Toronto Maple Leafs fans, this reminds you of Doug Gilmour versus Curtis Joseph in the playoffs; and he's a determined competitor and he's a very smart player, and very difficult to get a handle on because he changes speeds and he's got an awareness of what exactly he wants to do at any moment in time.

 

[93LEAFS]

I'm not so sure. On the broadcast, Bob specifically referred twice to Patrick's point totals last season as the reason that he remains first overall.

Here is the transcript:

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/patrick-1-in-mckenzie-s-mid-season-draft-rankings~1046950
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/hischier-a-close-second-behind-patrick~1046949

I think that his way of just referencing Patrick's prior season. In the article or the piece, he didn't reference a scout saying it was Patrick's numbers from last season. Most people watching that show don't pay nearly the same attention people on these boards do. It was a simple way for Bob to emphasize Patrick's season last year.

If you want to believe that Patrick is number 1 in 8 out of 10 scouts opinions based primarily on his statistics from last year, you are more than welcome too, but I don't buy it. Those guys live in an eye-test world, it is basically how they derive their entire worth to an organization over a computer.

 

[JA]

I think that his way of just referencing Patrick's prior season. In the article or the piece, he didn't reference a scout saying it was Patrick's numbers from last season. Most people watching that show don't pay nearly the same attention people on these boards do. It was a simple way for Bob to emphasize Patrick's season last year.

If you want to believe that Patrick is number 1 in 8 out of 10 scouts opinions based primarily on his statistics from last year, you are more than welcome too, but I don't buy it. Those guys live in an eye-test world, it is basically how they derive their entire worth to an organization over a computer.

I'm not sure that the eye test favors Patrick. His point total is impressive (if one accepts them at face value), but aside from that, his play has not impressed to anywhere near the same degree that Hischier's has. This is subjective, but I am not convinced that eight out of the ten scouts feel that Patrick's qualitative performances are better than Hischier's.

I believe that these the same scouts who concluded in the preseason rankings that Patrick was projected to be a second-line center.

http://www.tsn.ca/mckenzie-s-pre-season-ranking-the-nolan-patrick-draft-1.567410

McKenzie's pre-season ranking: The 'Nolan Patrick Draft'
By Bob McKenzie
Sep 22

There are two notable takeaways from the preseason assessment of the 2017 NHL Draft:

1. Until someone proves otherwise, this will be termed the “Nolan Patrick Draft.”

2. This year's draft appears to have considerably less sizzle and marquee value than each of the last two that featured the Connor McDavid versus Jack Eichel rivalry in 2015 and the Auston Matthews sweepstakes in 2016.

On the first point, Patrick is clearly No. 1 on TSN's Top 15 preseason draft rankings. Ten out of 10 scouts surveyed by TSN had him at No. 1 and no other prospect was close to him in voting.

"It's Patrick's spot to lose at this point," said one NHL head scout, "but this is a much different draft class than the last two."

Patrick certainly has the numbers you would expect from a potential No. 1 overall pick.

The Brandon Wheat King centre, who is entering his third Western League season, is almost 6-foot-3. He scored 41 goals and 102 points in 72 games last season in Brandon to help lead the Wheat Kings to the WHL championship, where he was named playoff MVP.

Former Wheat King head coach and general manager Kelly McCrimmon, who is now assistant general manager of the NHL expansion team in Las Vegas (which begins play next season and will have the third best odds in the 2017 draft lottery and pick no lower than sixth overall) fervently believes Patrick has what it takes to be a No. 1 centre in the NHL.

While some of the scouts surveyed by TSN do not discount Patrick evolving into that role, the consensus view is Patrick is projected more as a second-line NHL centre and doesn't have the same “wow” factor as McDavid, Eichel and Matthews.

"He's going to be a good, maybe very good, NHL player," one scout said, "but he isn't a dynamic player. His skating isn't bad but he's not dynamic like those others [McDavid, Eichel and Matthews]."

Patrick, like Matthews a year ago, is going to be scrutinized heavily because he's one of the oldest first-time draft eligible players this year's class.

...

Patrick's birthday is Sept. 19, so he was just four days off being eligible for last season's draft. Had he been available last June, where would he slot amongst the best players of a very strong draft class, like Matthews, Patrik Laine, Jesse Puljujarvi and Pierre-Luc Dubois, among others?

The consensus amongst scouts surveyed by TSN is that Patrick wouldn't have displaced any of the top four picks in last year's draft. Depending on the scout, they retroactively rank Patrick anywhere between No. 5 and 10, based on his 2015-16 season.

"That's not a knock on Nolan," a scout added. "Last year's top guys were really exceptional."

...

And while Patrick is the definitive No. 1 at this point, some scouts say they will be interested to see if he is pushed or challenged to hold onto that title.

...

Honestly, the only thing keeping Hischier, who fits the criteria that these scouts want in a Number One pick, from being ranked Number One right now appears to be the fact that he came from nowhere. McKenzie alluded to that in yesterday's midterm report. I can see it being a matter of caution to see whether Nico, who was ranked sixteenth in the preseason rankings, can sustain this level of play.

 

[93LEAFS]

I'm not sure that the eye test favors Patrick. His point total is impressive, but aside from that, his play has not impressed to anywhere near the same degree that Hischier's has.

Keep in mind, I believe that these the same scouts who concluded in the preseason rankings that Patrick was projected to be a second-line center.

http://www.tsn.ca/mckenzie-s-pre-season-ranking-the-nolan-patrick-draft-1.567410

That is your opinion and it is fine, and apparently 2 out of 10 NHL scouts agree with you, that doesn't mean the other 8 are wrong for viewing it differently, but to say they are doing so because of stats is just false. Different people value different factors in players. You like the speed, hand's and flash of Hischeir, others prefer the size, tenacity, strength and shot release on Patrick.

 

[JA]

That is your opinion and it is fine, and apparently 2 out of 10 NHL scouts agree with you, that doesn't mean the other 8 are wrong for viewing it differently, but to say they are doing so because of stats is just false. Different people value different factors in players. You like the speed, hand's and flash of Hischeir, others prefer the size, tenacity, strength and shot release on Patrick.

You haven't offered any counterargument to my point that this may be a matter of the scouts simply being cautious about a player who was not on their radar prior to the season.

The season began with the scouts claiming that they were interested to see if anyone would challenge Patrick; they were unimpressed with Patrick's lack of dynamic ability, dismissed his skating ability, and projected him to be a second-line center at the NHL level. Notice that this was the "consensus view."

Patrick's repertoire includes his 40-goal, 100-point season last year. It would not have been enough for him to challenge the Top Four of 2016, in the words of those scouts, but it is his most noteworthy accomplishment thus far; that very same season has stood in place of his 2016-17 season up to this point in the scouts' evaluations of this draft class.

Scouts anticipated from the beginning of the season that someone could challenge Patrick. Someone has, but Nico Hischier was ranked sixteenth in the preseason rankings, and his rise to the top was unexpected. With the final ranking still months away, there is room for movement, so one can understand Hischier being ranked second overall right now and potentially first overall in June if he can sustain this level of play.

 

[93LEAFS]

You haven't offered any counterargument to my point that this may be a matter of the scouts simply being cautious about a player who was not on their radar prior to the season.

The season began with the scouts claiming that they were interested to see if anyone would challenge Patrick; they were unimpressed with Patrick's lack of dynamic ability, dismissed his skating ability, and projected him to be a second-line center at the NHL level. Notice that this was the "consensus view."

They never dismissed his skating, they said he wasn't elite but it wasn't a knock. And re-read what was said, they didn't think he was dynamic or as good a skater compared to McDavid, Eichel, and Matthews. That is a pretty select group of guys who look like locks to be franchise centers. I don't think a single scout on this ranking list would put Hischier in that grouping. Also, someone like Barkov, Toews, Getzlaf or Kopitar aren't dynamic compared to those guys, but are still franchise centers.

Just accept that certain people don't see the same game the same way as you and value different traits in players. I don't know why you care so much about Hischier stock relative to Patrick or that scouts seems to disagree with your assessment by the eye-test, but just let it be. What might make someone a great prospect to someone else may not align with your views on the game. Which is fine. But, Patrick has a strong case to be the number 1 player, and it isn't entirely reliant on numbers. It is built around him having the skill set many believe is needed to win in the current NHL. It isn't due to stats, or due to the fact Hischier came out of nowhere (he was known, but entered the year with a weak Hlinka that hurt his stock on the pre-liminary rankings).

 

[JA]

They never dismissed his skating, they said he wasn't elite but it wasn't a knock. And re-read what was said, they didn't think he was dynamic or as good a skater compared to McDavid, Eichel, and Matthews.

It seems peculiar to mention that if it is not a deficiency or a quality that the scouts value in a top pick. His lack of dynamic ability is a reason why they saw him as a second-line center.

While some of the scouts surveyed by TSN do not discount Patrick evolving into that role, the consensus view is Patrick is projected more as a second-line NHL centre and doesn't have the same “wow” factor as McDavid, Eichel and Matthews.

"He's going to be a good, maybe very good, NHL player," one scout said, "but he isn't a dynamic player. His skating isn't bad but he's not dynamic like those others [McDavid, Eichel and Matthews]."

Just accept that certain people don't see the same game the same way as you and value different traits in players. I don't know why you care so much about Hischier stock relative to Patrick or that scouts seems to disagree with your assessment by the eye-test, but just let it be. What might make someone a great prospect to someone else may not align with your views on the game. Which is fine. But, Patrick has a strong case to be the number 1 player, and it isn't entirely reliant on numbers. It is built around him having the skill set many believe is needed to win in the current NHL. It isn't due to stats, or due to the fact Hischier came out of nowhere (he was known, but entered the year with a weak Hlinka that hurt his stock on the pre-liminary rankings).

The problem here is that you claim that the scouts are seeing things from your perspective, but you offer no proof nor do you cite any of the text as evidence of your claim. Nothing in the articles states that the eye test is the reason he is ranked first overall. You have offered zero evidence of your assertions.

You and a few others think far too highly of Patrick; to say prior to the season that he could have been drafted ahead of Patrik Laine is absurd. This is not an issue of Nico Hischier having to be a first-overall pick, but of Nolan Patrick simply being underwhelming relative to his primary competitor for first overall and relative to the lofty praise that has been given.

It doesn't appear that the scouts would agree with your assessment of Nolan Patrick. He isn't a franchise center in their eyes -- they see him as a second-line center. This is what I see when I watch him; I say this about what I saw last season and what I see currently.

Patrick has not played enough games this season to affect that "second-line center" assessment that was made by these scouts before the start of the season. What they felt about him then should still hold true. In fact, nobody's opinion of him should really have changed since last season. He was regarded as a projected second-line center, and he should still be regarded as a projected second-line center.

Nico Hischier has risen from out of nowhere and fits the criteria that the scouts look for. He was one of the best players at the 2017 World Junior tournament when so many other high-profile players were at the event. He has been stellar this season and appears to possess more upside. The complication is that he has only played a few months' worth of high-end hockey at the major junior level. I am certain that scouts want to see more of that before they make a definitive assessment about him. Hischier is still unproven over a full season -- for now, that would be a reasonable concern for those whose careers depend on them being absolutely sure about their decisions.

 

[Reddwit]

It seems peculiar to mention that if it is not a deficiency or a quality that the scouts value in a top pick. His lack of dynamic ability is a reason why they saw him as a second-line center.


The problem here is that you claim that the scouts are seeing things from your perspective, but you offer no proof nor do you cite any of the text as evidence of your claim. Nothing in the articles state that the eye test is the reason he is ranked first overall. You offer zero evidence of your assertions.

You and a few others think far too highly of Patrick; to say prior to the season that he could have been drafted ahead of Patrik Laine is absurd.

It doesn't appear that the scouts would agree with your assessment of Nolan Patrick. He isn't a franchise center in their eyes -- they see him as a second-line center.

"The reality is [in spite of the limited viewings because of a groin injury] Patrick is a known quantity because of what he did last year," an NHL scout said of Patrick's 41 goals and 102 points in 72 games for a powerhouse WHL champion Wheat Kings team, adding league playoff MVP honours to his resume.

Right now, it seems like Patrick is holding on to #1 because he's a known commodity. He might still be there on draft day, but it is something to consider, as you suggest.

 

[93LEAFS]

It seems peculiar to mention that if it is not a deficiency or a quality that the scouts value in a top pick. His lack of dynamic ability is a reason why they saw him as a second-line center.


The problem here is that you claim that the scouts are seeing things from your perspective, but you offer no proof nor do you cite any of the text as evidence of your claim.

Nothing in the articles state that the eye test is the reason he is ranked first overall.

You and a few others think far too highly of Patrick -- to say prior to the season that he could have been drafted ahead of Patrik Laine is absurd.

It doesn't appear that the scouts would agree with your assessment of Nolan Patrick.

Again, I never said he would clearly go above Laine. That was other posters. I said Winnipeg might think about it due to him being local and a center. If you want to dig up prior history, you thought Puljujarvi would be better than Matthews and that Eichel has a higher ceiling than McDavid.

If you don't think the eye-test is why Patrick is ranked first overall, what the hell do you think professional scouts do for a living? Watch box scores and WHL live feeds? Their opinion is primarily based on live viewings of said players. You are the one who keeps on quoting stats as the reason, when there is no evidence of a single scout mentioning his stats. Just Bob taking on his numbers when his prior season is mentioned. The exact reason given is this by the scout quoted and what appears to be a paraphrased amalgamation of various scouts opinions. Numbers are referenced as a supporting point, but it is the statements about style of play that are key. Also included is Button's summary of him.

The reality is [in spite of the limited viewings because of a groin injury] Patrick is a known quantity because of what he did last year

All it really means is the scouts are familiar with Patrick's game. While he isn't necessarily dynamic, he's a big, pro-style centre who can score and make plays and has the numbers and pressure-treated playoff experience to prove it.

All the capabilities to be the No. 1 centre teams can build around. Has an ease to his play, both physically and mentally, that he combines with excellent skill to impact the game in every situation. Franchise centres contribute individually, but what separates them is their ability to make everybody around them and the team better.

Former Wheat King head coach and general manager Kelly McCrimmon, who is now assistant general manager of the NHL expansion team in Las Vegas (which begins play next season and will have the third best odds in the 2017 draft lottery and pick no lower than sixth overall) fervently believes Patrick has what it takes to be a No. 1 centre in the NHL.

While some of the scouts surveyed by TSN do not discount Patrick evolving into that role, the consensus view is Patrick is projected more as a second-line NHL centre and doesn't have the same “wow†factor as McDavid, Eichel and Matthews.

It is based on prior performance where he has been arguably the best 1998 in the CHL, and was the best 1998 on last year's Hlinka team outplaying guys like McLeod and PLD.

As for the 2nd line center statement, that is some scouts, maybe even a consensus, but there are still scouts out there who believe he is a franchise center. I believe one person quoted as such is the current assistant GM of the team having the 3rd highest odds of winning the draft lottery.

You may be right in thinking that Patrick isn't as good as Hischeir or that Hischier will go number 1 in June, but there are a bunch of valid reasons why Patrick could go one that do not rely on stat counting.

I'm capable of using google and finding multiple supporting pieces from sources used here all the time saying Patrick would have gone third last year or that he projects as a number one center. But, even if I agree with some of these peoples opinions on this one matter, I either don't think they are consistently reliable enough to be used, or they have far from a track record I can trust. There are pieces from TheHockeyWriters, Toronto Star and Sportsnet that say as much.

Finally, if a majority of these 10 scouts see Nolan Patrick as only a 2nd line center, but a majority also have him better than Hischier, what do you think they see Hischier as. They sure as hell don't see him as the closest thing to Bure since Bure like you do.

But whatever, this is just going in circles. I'm open to Hischier being the best player in the draft, you seem to be of the opinion the only correct answer is Hischier at this point and won't accept that people view the game differently and value prospects differently because of this. What some may see as a 2nd line center not of the Matthews, Eichel, Mackinnon tier, others may see as the next Toews or Kopitar.

 

[Frk It]

It seems peculiar to mention that if it is not a deficiency or a quality that the scouts value in a top pick. His lack of dynamic ability is a reason why they saw him as a second-line center.

I believe that these the same scouts who concluded in the preseason rankings that Patrick was projected to be a second-line center..

The season began with the scouts claiming that they were interested to see if anyone would challenge Patrick; they were unimpressed with Patrick's lack of dynamic ability, dismissed his skating ability, and projected him to be a second-line center at the NHL level. Notice that this was the "consensus view."

If they thought Hischier was likely to be more, he would probably be the consensus #1 wouldn't he? Have you considered maybe they think he is also just a 2nd line center, but not as likely to become it?

Unless you think scouts are just stupid or stubborn. Not that they're never wrong or anything. But I'm sure if there was a consensus he had a better ceiling and was more likely to reach it than he would be the #1, one would think.

I'm just talking about from the scout's POV, FYI. You're certainly more than allowed to have a differing opinion. Wouldn't even be surprised if you were right here.

 

[JA]

If they thought Hischier was likely to be more, he would probably be the consensus #1 wouldn't he? Have you considered maybe they think he is also just a 2nd line center, but not as likely to become it?

Unless you think scouts are just stupid or stubborn. Not that they're never wrong or anything. But I'm sure if there was a consensus he had a better ceiling and was more likely to reach it than he would be the #1, one would think.

I'm just talking about from the scout's POV, FYI. You're certainly more than allowed to have a differing opinion. Wouldn't even be surprised if you were right here.

I think that they are being cautious. This is not the final ranking and there is room for movement before June.

The midterm report is full of tentative language such as "for now," "known quantity," "familiar with," and "experience to prove."

On the other side, there is "potential for," "eye-opening," "raising the spectre . . . quite remarkable," "how did this happen?" "there wasn't a strong feeling he was something special," "no indication he was possibly elite," and "intrigued by."

The whole article is full of language demonstrating that this is an issue of surprise and judiciousness.

This current ranking is provisional. One can infer that the scouts are taking a "wait and see" approach, which is admirable for those of their occupation. Patrick has a very large body of work to use as a reference; Hischier has only a few months of hockey at this level to go by.

Finally, if a majority of these 10 scouts see Nolan Patrick as only a 2nd line center, but a majority also have him better than Hischier, what do you think they see Hischier as. They sure as hell don't see him as the closest thing to Bure since Bure like you do.

From a style perspective, sure. Sam Cosentino and Cam Russell compare him to Pavel Datsyuk, a . Craig Button compares him to Henrik Zetterberg.

The major narrative appears to be that he is "The Swiss McDavid."

I wonder which of these players the majority of scouts would compare him to from a style of play perspective, since that is the basis of my comparison. Do I see a player whose style resembles Connor McDavid, or Henrik Zetterberg, or Pavel Datsyuk? Not quite as much as I see a style reminiscent of Pavel Bure.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=126335081&postcount=677

http://www.metronews.ca/news/halifax/2016/06/28/halifax-mooseheads-pick-swiss-forward-in-chl-import-draft.html

Halifax Mooseheads select Swiss forward Nico Hischier sixth overall at CHL Import Draft
By: Kristen Lipscombe Metro Published on Tue Jun 28 2016

...

"We're obviously excited to get a player of his calibre and skill level," Mooseheads general manager Cam Russell said Tuesday in the team news release.

“He’s a Pavel Datsyuk type of player; he’s great offensively and strong defensively, not to mention he was an assistant captain at the under-18s as an underage player, so leadership is obviously there as well," the GM said.

...

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/article/phenomenal-wjc-performance-puts-nico-hischier-in-discussion-for-no-1-overall-in-2017

Phenomenal WJC performance puts Nico Hischier in discussion for No 1 overall in 2017
By: Ken Campbell
Jan 2, 2017

...

His talents have earned him the nickname, ‘The Swiss Connor McDavid,’ something he’s not about to encourage.

...

http://futureconsiderations.ca/hischier-shines-under-world-juniors-spotlight/

Hischier shines under World Juniors spotlight
by Scott Wheeler on January 3rd, 2017

...

Hischier tries not to focus on the unique attention he gets, though.

“You personally, you have to put you in the back of your head, so I’m not happy (with the tournament),” he said.

“I’m proud of the way I played but I don’t think about that right now.”

He doesn’t want to get caught up in the draft hype either.

Hischier says he hasn’t even considered whether he could go first overall.

“Now I have to go back to Halifax,” he said. “I have a half season left so I will look at the draft after the whole season but not right now. I want to improve all my skills and get stronger.”

Nor does Hischier listen to the comparisons.

The ones that call him, with all his speed, the Swiss Connor McDavid.

“I just try to focus on hockey and have fun and keep working hard,” he said.

...

[collapse=mcdavid]
http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/article/phenomenal-wjc-performance-puts-nico-hischier-in-discussion-for-no-1-overall-in-2017

Phenomenal WJC performance puts Nico Hischier in discussion for No 1 overall in 2017
By: Ken Campbell
Jan 2, 2017


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Hischier finished the tournament with four goals and seven points in five games and gave scouts something to think about for the rest of the season. If Hischier can carry this performance over to the rest of his season with the Halifax Mooseheads, it would not be a stretch to suggest that Nolan Patrick’s status as the No. 1 draft prospect would be in jeopardy. Players with that kind of poise and patience around the net, combined with the speed of his feet, hands and mind, are not the kind you find everyday.

“I don’t really think right now about this,” Hischier said of his draft fortunes. “We had a tough loss. I will look forward and now I will go back to Halifax and I have a half season left. I will look at that after the whole season, but not right now.”

Hischier currently sits sixth in Quebec League scoring with 23 goals and 48 points in just 31 games and he’d certainly be vying for top spot if not for the fact that he has been at the World Junior Championship. In fact, his 1.54 goals per game is second in the league only to league scoring leader and Mooseheads teammate Maxime Fortier. And Hischier certainly has a flare for the dramatic. In addition to his two goals in the semifinal, Hischier scored in overtime earlier in the tournament to lift his team to a victory over the Czech Republic and had a six-point game in the Quebec League. His talents have earned him the nickname, ‘The Swiss Connor McDavid,’ something he’s not about to encourage.

“I don’t try to listen to this,” Hischier said. “I mainly try to focus on the hockey and have fun and keep working hard.”

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http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/team-canada-switzerland-1.3911753

Swiss expose some holes in Team Canada defence
National juniors jump to 3-0 lead and then hang on to win in overtime in final tournament tuneup
By Jonas Siegel, The Canadian Press Posted: Dec 23, 2016 9:39 PM ET Last Updated: Dec 23, 2016 10:50 PM ET

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The 17-year-old Hischier, a potential top-10 overall pick in the 2017 NHL draft, has been called the "Swiss McDavid". A rookie for the Halifax Mooseheads, he ranks among the QMJHL's leading scorers this season with 48 points in 31 games.

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https://www.localxpress.ca/local-sports/swiss-import-hischier-hits-the-ice-with-mooseheads-372873

Swiss import Hischier hits the ice with Mooseheads
Aug 22, 2016 7:18 PM by: Francis Campbell

Nico Hischier, the 17-year-old Swiss centre who has already been compared to Connor McDavid, took the ice at the Halifax Mooseheads training camp Monday. Hischier says it's too early to be thinking about his projection as a first-round pick in the 2017 NHL entry draft.

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http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/juniors/u-s-edges-past-swiss-will-face-russia-semifinals/

U.S. edges past Swiss, will face Russia in semifinals
Canadian Press January 2, 2017, 8:14 PM

TORONTO — Nico Hischier nearly put an end to the United States’ run at the world junior hockey championship, but it was the Americans that just prevailed over Switzerland in Monday’s quarter-final at Air Canada Centre.

Minnesota Wild prospect Jordan Greenway scored the eventual game-winner after Hischier — nicknamed the "Swiss McDavid" — brought the Swiss back from a 2-0 first period deficit with a pair of power-play goals.

http://news.nationalpost.com/sports/russia-sweden-easily-take-care-of-business-in-2017-world-junior-quarter-finals

Sweden, Russia easily advance, U.S. struggles to subdue Swiss in world junior quarter-finals
Postmedia Network and The Canadian Press | January 2, 2017 | Last Updated: Jan 3 8:21 AM ET

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Nicknamed the “Swiss McDavid,” Hischier got his nation on the board midway through the frame, the 17-year-old dancing around Boston Bruins first rounder Charlie McAvoy before beating Parsons with his third goal of the tournament.

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http://thechronicleherald.ca/mooseheads/1376332-halifax-mooseheads-nab-swiss-prodigy-in-chl-import-draft

Halifax Mooseheads nab Swiss prodigy in CHL import draft
JOHN MacNEIL
Published June 29, 2016 - 6:23am
Last Updated June 29, 2016 - 6:24am


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Hischier, a 17-year-old forward, is already playing above his peers and is projected to become the best player Switzerland has produced.

In the easily exaggerated world of online “reporting,” Hischier has been christened “The Swiss McDavid,” likening him to Edmonton Oilers wunderkind Connor McDavid.

But the Swiss teenager might just be that good.

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http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/hischier-a-close-second-behind-patrick~1046949

PETRILLO: All right. Craig, Nolan Patrick -- you said the comparable there was Eric Staal, so who do we take a look at then when we look at Nico Hischier?

BUTTON: Well, for me, it's Henrik Zetterberg of the Detroit Red Wings -- that kind of subtle brilliance; that ability to make plays that don't seem to be there, but he's smart. He's smart without the puck. [Video on screen] Here he is in an overtime game at the World Junior tournament and he strips Jakub Zboril, a first-rounder of the Boston Bruins, and then he just opens up the goaltender, and boom, it's right there. But he also has the ability to freeze defenders. Charlie McAvoy is coming out to defend him; Charlie McAvoy is left behind like a pylon -- and those were Charlie McAvoy's words, not mine.

His speed; his ability to change speeds; here he is again in the same game against the U.S. He doesn't jam up, but then he recognizes, "where is there an opportunity?" For Toronto Maple Leafs fans, this reminds you of Doug Gilmour versus Curtis Joseph in the playoffs; and he's a determined competitor and he's a very smart player, and very difficult to get a handle on because he changes speeds and he's got an awareness of what exactly he wants to do at any moment in time.

Maybe the scouts see him more as a Henrik Zetterberg type as Craig Button does, or a Pavel Datsyuk type as Sam Cosentino does, or a Connor McDavid type as Dennis Schellenberg does.

 

[Frk It]

can infer that the scouts are taking a "wait and see" approach, which is admirable for those of their occupation.

Are they though?

I mean, they had no problem taking Cale Makar who was off the board and putting him as a top 15 prospect. Similar story with them having Necas as mostly a top 10 guy, to maybe a lesser extent.

Now obviously it's going to be harder to unseat the #1 ranked prospect, but I'm not sure they are being as delayed to react to what's going on as you lead on.

Patrick has a very large body of work to use as a reference; Hischier has only a few months of hockey at this level to go by

This I agree with.

 

[JA]

Are they though?

I mean, they had no problem taking Cale Makar who was off the board and putting him as a top 15 prospect. Similar story with them having Necas as mostly a top 10 guy, to maybe a lesser extent.

Now obviously it's going to be harder to unseat the #1 ranked prospect, but I'm not sure they are being as delayed to react to what's going on as you lead on.



This I agree with.

With a player who has penciled in to be the first-overall pick for years, who was spoken of in very elevated terms throughout his major junior career, and who has a 100-point season under his belt as a 17-year-old, yes. I see some hesitation to place an unproven player above somebody who, this past September, was regarded as being in a class of his own among his draft-eligible peers.

The circumstances for Hischier and Makar are different. There is no consensus about any of the players ranked #3 and below.

 

[Tatar Shots]

I think that they are being cautious. This is not the final ranking and there is room for movement before June.

The midterm report is full of tentative language such as "for now," "known quantity," "familiar with," and "experience to prove."

On the other side, there is "potential for," "eye-opening," "raising the spectre . . . quite remarkable," "how did this happen?" "there wasn't a strong feeling he was something special," "no indication he was possibly elite," and "intrigued by."

The whole article is full of language demonstrating that this is an issue of surprise and judiciousness.

This current ranking is provisional. One can infer that the scouts are taking a "wait and see" approach, which is admirable for those of their occupation. Patrick has a very large body of work to use as a reference; Hischier has only a few months of hockey at this level to go by.

From a style perspective, sure. Sam Cosentino and compares him to Pavel Datsyuk. Craig Button compares him to Henrik Zetterberg.

The major narrative appears to be that he is "The Swiss McDavid."

I wonder which of these players the majority of scouts would compare him to from a style of play perspective, since that is the basis of my comparison. Do I see a player whose style resembles Connor McDavid, or Henrik Zetterberg, or Pavel Datsyuk? Not quite as much as I see a style reminiscent of Pavel Bure.

http://www.metronews.ca/news/halifax/2016/06/28/halifax-mooseheads-pick-swiss-forward-in-chl-import-draft.html

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/article/phenomenal-wjc-performance-puts-nico-hischier-in-discussion-for-no-1-overall-in-2017

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/hischier-a-close-second-behind-patrick~1046949

Maybe the scouts see him more as a Henrik Zetterberg type as Craig Button does, or a Pavel Datsyuk type as Sam Cosentino does, or a Connor McDavid type as Dennis Schellenberg does.

From what I've seen he reminds me Of Zetterberg. Not as good of a shooter, but a better skater than Zetterberg was.

He should be a Red Wing and learn from Z

 

[93LEAFS]

I think that they are being cautious. This is not the final ranking and there is room for movement before June.

The midterm report is full of tentative language such as "for now," "known quantity," "familiar with," and "experience to prove."

On the other side, there is "potential for," "eye-opening," "raising the spectre . . . quite remarkable," "how did this happen?" "there wasn't a strong feeling he was something special," "no indication he was possibly elite," and "intrigued by."

The whole article is full of language demonstrating that this is an issue of surprise and judiciousness.

This current ranking is provisional. One can infer that the scouts are taking a "wait and see" approach, which is admirable for those of their occupation. Patrick has a very large body of work to use as a reference; Hischier has only a few months of hockey at this level to go by.

From a style perspective, sure. Sam Cosentino and compares him to Pavel Datsyuk. Craig Button compares him to Henrik Zetterberg.

The major narrative appears to be that he is "The Swiss McDavid."

I wonder which of these players the majority of scouts would compare him to from a style of play perspective, since that is the basis of my comparison. Do I see a player whose style resembles Connor McDavid, or Henrik Zetterberg, or Pavel Datsyuk? Not quite as much as I see a style reminiscent of Pavel Bure.

http://www.metronews.ca/news/halifax/2016/06/28/halifax-mooseheads-pick-swiss-forward-in-chl-import-draft.html

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/article/phenomenal-wjc-performance-puts-nico-hischier-in-discussion-for-no-1-overall-in-2017

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/hischier-a-close-second-behind-patrick~1046949

Maybe the scouts see him more as a Henrik Zetterberg type as Craig Button does, or a Pavel Datsyuk type as Sam Cosentino does, or a Connor McDavid type as Dennis Schellenberg does.

Calling him the Swiss McDavid is like people calling Draisaitl the German Gretzky. It is catchy but it doesn't fit. Player comparisons are always a mess. A week ago Button was comparing Hischier to Sam Reinhart. I've seen Patrick compared to Toews, Getzlaf, Monahan, Draisaitl, Staal, Reinhart and Kopitar. These draft broadcasts and hype-shows are usually built around far-reaching overly simplistic stylistic comparisons.

 

[JA]

Calling him the Swiss McDavid is like people calling Draisaitl the German Gretzky. It is catchy but it doesn't fit. Player comparisons are always a mess. A week ago Button was comparing Hischier to Sam Reinhart. I've seen Patrick compared to Toews, Getzlaf, Monahan, Draisaitl, Staal, Reinhart and Kopitar. These draft broadcasts and hype-shows are usually built around far-reaching overly simplistic stylistic comparisons.

You have deviated from your point, which was apparently to juxtapose "second-line" and "Pavel Bure" and infer that this was a comparison of ability. That is very petty.

We've gone through this before, though. Last season, you complained when people, including scouts and high-profile hockey people, compared Patrik Laine to Mario Lemieux. This is not a new conversation. You refuted the Lemieux comparison because you felt that a comparison of style could not be separated from a comparison of ability. You simply despise player comparisons. Not everybody has difficulty acknowledging the differences between a comparison of style and a comparison of ability.

To make a comparison of style of play, Player A's skill set does not need to be on the exact same level as Player B's.

He isn't Lemieux. He is a player who plays, for the most part, the same style of game as Lemieux. The major difference is that Laine sees himself as a goal scorer and thus demonstrates some tendencies that Brett Hull and Steven Stamkos possess. This has been stated by Jari Kurri, while other professional scouts and former NHL players have also made the Lemieux comparison.

If you don't understand it, there's no purpose in continuing to talk about it with you.

First you compare him to Heatley, then you compare him to Sundin, then you compare him to Semin. All three of those players are completely different, and none of them are accurate. Others who haven't watched him enough have compared him to Rick Nash, Corey Perry, and Alex Ovechkin, all of whom play entirely different styles as well. It's ridiculous. Watch him play or listen to those who have watched him over an extended period of time. His style of play resembles none of those players.

I don't see the Lemieux and think its far reaching just agree to disagree. I don't see anywhere near the puck control, awareness or passing to even attempt to make that comparison. Like the Ovi comparrison, it belittles though significant strengths of those guys, in Lemieuxs case his insane puck control and passing (both of which Laine is good at, but not world class) or in Ovi's case acceleration (which is a major staple of Ovi's game). You seem to be aiming for imperfect comparrison's to the best possible players of all time, while overlooking his flaws. I don't think that is productive way to compare players.

So Laine will be the Nedved to there Gretzky's, even then I don't see the style of play. Mario's vision was elite, which gets ignored in alot of his highlight packages. He'll never have that type of awareness. Which is why I think its an absurd comparison. His puck control seems much closer to someone like Semin, he's actually Semin with slightly more grit and a way better one-timer.

I think he has similar strengths as Heatley and weaknesses. He utilizes them in a different way, its not an agenda. If he ends up having a career like Heatley thats a pretty damn good career, especially if he doesn't fall off a cliff. The guy was a consistent 40 to 50 goals scorer and broke 100 points.

How many Tappara games did you watch this season? Tappara lacked depth in its lineup, and Laine never gelled with Peltola or Järvinen. It was quite obvious that Laine's line could start nothing, not because of a lack of ability by Laine but because he never touched the puck. There were some games when it felt like having Laine on the ice was a waste because his linemates kept fiddling around with the puck uselessly. Ilomäki was a fourth-line winger by the postseason. The linemates he began the season with were all bottom-six players.

If Laine had spent the season on the top line with Lajunen and Kuusela, he would have had more goals and more productive games. It's very obvious to anyone who watched him this season that he worked well with Lajunen and Kuusela, and the number of even strength goals and powerplay goals had far more to do with linemates than the one-man advantage. Still, 50% of his points were scored in even strength situations. In Game 4 of the Liiga finals when Laine was finally moved up to the top line, there was one particular even strength shift where they dominated together and hemmed in HIFK. It was as if the dead weight that was dragging Laine down all season was finally lifted off of him. He also gifted Kuusela several breakaway opportunities that the latter failed to bury in their three games together.

...

Multiple times using 365, so streaming is quite easy as I occasionally gamble on Euro hockey (particularly next goals). He's heavily reliant off scoring off the cycle and PP, he's not dominant off the rush, which is why a significant portion of his goals are scored on the PP or as in the playoffs at points with the Extra attacker. A goals still a goal, I just don't see Lemieux, you seem to. I see a guy who will make his killing in a Heatley, Hull, and Vanek style way. Not in a Kessel, Ovi (outside of the pp one-time) or Stamkos style. A goal is still a goal, I just think your overrating his ability off the rush and his ability to become an a high-end skater. He may never full clean up those 1st 3 or 4 strides, but can still be an elite goal threat. I don't think comparing someone to a guy with 700 goals is belittling their game.

I don't get posting stats proving what I said (13 ES goals in 64 games does) outside of prove my point he's heavily reliant on a cycle game.

Yes, I see a rush game.

There are plenty of rush plays in this package I compiled of his regular season shifts. In fact, the thumbnail depicts one such rush play.

...

Just because he scored on the rush, doesn't mean it will be a recurring trait. Heatley, Yashin and Brett Hull all got some of there goals off the rush. At the moment he is heavily reliant on a cycle/PP game, and his numbers prove it. Its hockey, every single player has plays off the rush, doesn't mean they excel at it.

Edit: And that second highlight is caused by an absolutely terrible read by the LD going towards center ice to pick up a trailer leaving a wide area for Laine to eventually cut in, that isn't cause by elite speed.

Also, yes, Patrik Laine has a rush game.

 

[93LEAFS]

You have deviated from your point, which was apparently to juxtapose "second-line" and "Pavel Bure" and infer that this was a comparison of ability.

We've gone through this before, though. Last season, you complained when people, including scouts and high-profile hockey people, compared Patrik Laine to Mario Lemieux. This is not a new conversation. You refuted the Lemieux comparison because you felt that Laine a comparison of style could not be separated from a comparison of ability.

I refuted the Lemiuex comparison because I thought it was ridiculous and still do, but that's not a discussion for here. It was based in the fact I think they play completely different styles and the comparison was overly simplistic. I made my points then, if you want to find them look them up. It had to do with puck control and being able to cut in on net. My criticism was based completely on style and traits of Lemieux's games that Laine simply didn't possess. It had little to do with overall ability. In general, elite talents are elite talents because they possess extremely unique skill sets that differ from players before them. It was not an inability to separate stylistic from skill, it was a disagreement with the stylistic comparison. If you think he's a McDavid, Mackinnon or Bure level skater, that actual testing done at the top combine event would show he isn't.

My point was, you keep quoting Bob Mckenzie's scouts as saying he's a "2nd line center" which, one not all of them may agree on and then use it to berate Patrick down so you can hype up Hischeir while ignoring that 8 out of those 10 scouts still have Patrick as the better player currently. But, whatever. You are not worth discussing this with. You seem entirely focused on winning the debate of Hischier being the best player in the draft and that anyone who doesn't see it is being reluctant to change their mind. I get it, you don't like Patrick, you think he's overrated and Hischier is well ahead. But, you should accept that other people are capable of sound analysis while thinking Patrick is the better player, you seem unable to grasp that as a respectable concept. And from there, you've just used this thread to air out old vendetta's with people who disagreed with you.

And if you think Laine has a comparable rush game to Lemieux, Kessel or Ovi in his 45 games or so at the NHL level, I don't know what you are watching. Obviously, someone getting 23 goals in 40 games will have some goals off the rush, but he doesn't score that often in the way I described. He is still primarily a distance shooter.

 

[JA]

I refuted the Lemiuex comparison because I thought it was ridiculous and still do, but that's not a discussion for here. It was based in the fact I think they play completely different styles and the comparison was overly simplistic. I made my points then, if you want to find them look them up. It had to do with puck control and being able to cut in on net. My criticism was based completely on style and traits of Lemieux's games that Laine simply didn't possess. It had little to do with overall ability. In general, elite talents are elite talents because they possess extremely unique skill sets that differ from players before them. It was not an inability to separate stylistic from skill, it was a disagreement with the stylistic comparison. If you think he's a McDavid, Mackinnon or Bure level skater, that actual testing done at the top combine event would show he isn't.

Style of play comparisons aren't your strong suit -- I think that's about all we can gather here.

Yes, I believe that Hischier is an elite skater. This is not an unusual opinion. Why you would use that as an argument is puzzling. He has clocked times in-game that compare favorably to most other rushes, and even some of the quickest Skills Competition fastest skater attempts.

I believe we all have our own subjective analyses of players, but Mario Lemieux was a name that appeared on a very consistent basis last season.

You can't deny what was said; you made very clear that you would not accept Lemieux as a comparable due to the fact that Laine was not projected to be a Lemieux-tier player. Many in that thread felt that what you said was absurd.

And if you think Laine has a comparable rush game to Lemieux, Kessel or Ovi in his 45 games or so at the NHL level, I don't know what you are watching. Obviously, someone getting 23 goals in 40 games will have some goals off the rush, but he doesn't score that often in the way I described. He is still primarily a distance shooter.

To be fair, Laine was a possession player in Liiga. He loved to carry the puck from end to end and bring it around the offensive zone. That aspect of his game has yet to translate to the NHL, but it was the game that he played as a draft-eligible player with Tappara.

http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/janne-niinimaa-is-a-huge-fan-of-laine-and-puljujarvi-for-draft

“Right now Laine is better, all offence, he’s an artist kind of guy … He skates like (Mario) Lemieux, the way he slides on the ice but Puljujarvi is unbelievable. He’s a small-town kid, works hard, more of a Finn. He’s got the whole package but he’s not mature yet. He’s like Jere Lehtinen with a bit more offensive upside,” said Niinimaa, who played 399 Oilers’ games from 1998 to 2003 and 741 in all with stops in Philly, Long Island, Montreal and Dallas.

http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/hockey-world-finnish-pair-excites-potential-nhl-draft-lottery-contestants

“Laine has something special skill-wise … I haven’t seen a shot like he has in a long, long time,” said Lehtinen, who had the right-winger playing for the Finnish national team for two games against Sweden in February and he looked totally at home, skating and physically.

“In the world junior, sometimes he’d score goals going one-on-one like Mario Lemieux. He looks like that. Big guy. His stick and reach is amazing, quick hands. Hockey sense? He’s got that, too. He can pass the puck and his skating has become much better than it was the last 18 months ago. Doesn’t look like he’s going fast, but he is. He’s pushing hard.”

http://www.tsn.ca/towering-laine-possesses-a-powerful-confidence-1.500870

“He’s a powerful kid who probably doesn’t realize yet what he has in his toolbox,” Ferraro said. “Right now it’s all about his shot. Why not? If you popped him into the NHL right now on this day, he’s got a top-five shot in the entire league. His shot is unreal. And it’s not just the one-timer. It’s his wrist shot too. His mechanics and his release are elite.

“You know how some guys just hit the golf ball farther than anyone else and you don’t know why? Well, that’s this kid and his shot. But he’s going to figure out he has more than just the shot. He’s almost 6-5 and his reach is Mario [Lemieux]-like. When he puts his body between you and the puck and extends his arms, you’re seven feet away from the puck. It’s impossible to take the puck from him. I’ll say this: He really won me over at the worlds.”

https://www.mckeenshockey.com/prospects-blog/mckeens-2016-top-30-nhl-draft-rankings-apr-2016/

"He looks like Mario when he's carrying the puck," noted one top scout during the U-20, and he wasn't alone in that assertion. When asked for a comparison, Teemu Selanne brought up Lemieux as well, and McKeen's chief amateur scout Grant McCagg was making the correlation between the two even before there were others echoing it...he first made the suggestion early on in the World juniors, and he hasn't changed his mind. If anything it has only been reconfirmed.

My point was, you keep quoting Bob Mckenzie's scouts as saying he's a "2nd line center" which, one not all of them may agree on and then use it to berate Patrick down so you can hype up Hischeir while ignoring that 8 out of those 10 scouts still have Patrick as the better player currently. But, whatever. You are not worth discussing this with. You seem entirely focused on winning the debate of Hischier being the best player in the draft and that anyone who doesn't see it is being reluctant to change their mind. I get it, you don't like Patrick, you think he's overrated and Hischier is well ahead. But, you should accept that other people are capable of sound analysis while thinking Patrick is the better player, you seem unable to grasp that as a respectable concept. And from there, you've just used this thread to air out old vendetta's with people who disagreed with you.

The word "consensus" holds meaning. You can't simply discard that and say that those same scouts think of Patrick as a franchise center. They clearly do not. Their opinions do not align with yours, which is what you appear to have difficulty accepting.

He would not have been selected second overall last season. I understand that you think very highly of this player, but I am not the only one who has challenged the position. Don't think that people are not allowed to challenge the notion of Patrick being the first-overall selection and justify their position. That is exactly what I am doing, offering evidence of why I believe this to be the case and examining the degree to which Hischier has closed the gap on Patrick. That is the purpose of this current discussion -- to gauge where Hischier stands relative to Patrick right now. I have posited that scouts are being cautious, which is a rational conclusion based on the message that was communicated through the midterm report. If you can not fathom Patrick being challenged, then this is not your discussion.

Most recently, this discussion has been about rationalizing the decision to rank Patrick ahead of Hischier in the midterm rankings, and I have provided ample evidence of the tentative language that was used in the report to infer that this was a matter of caution. You, on the other hand, have made unsubstantiated claims about others' opinions -- you offer no proof.

No constructive discussion can be had when one side does not offer proof to support their statements.

 

[93LEAFS]

Style of play comparisons aren't your strong suit -- I think that's about all we can gather here.

Yes, I believe that Hischier is an elite skater. This is not an unusual opinion. Why you would use that as an argument is puzzling. He has clocked times in-game that compare favorably to most other rushes, and even some of the quickest Skills Competition fastest skater attempts.

I believe we all have our own subjective analyses of players, but Mario Lemieux was a name that appeared on a very consistent basis last season.

You can't deny what was said; you made very clear that you would not accept Lemieux as a comparable due to the fact that Laine was not projected to be a Lemieux-tier player. Many in that thread felt that what you said was absurd.

The word "consensus" holds meaning. You can't simply discard that and say that those same scouts think of Patrick as a franchise center. They clearly do not. Their opinions do not align with yours, which is what you appear to have difficulty accepting.

He would not have been selected second overall last season. I understand that you think very highly of this player, but I am not the only one who has challenged the position. Don't think that people are not allowed to challenge the notion of Patrick being the first-overall selection. That is exactly what I am doing, offering evidence of why this is the case.

Most recently, this discussion has been about rationalizing the decision to rank Patrick ahead of Hischier in the midterm rankings, and I have provided ample evidence of the tentative language that was used in the report to infer that this was a matter of caution. You, on the other hand, have made unsubstantiated claims about others' opinions -- you offer no proof.

No constructive discussion can be had when one side does not offer proof to support their statements.

To be fair, Laine was a possession player in Liiga. He loved to carry the puck from end to end and bring it around the offensive zone. That aspect of his game has yet to translate to the NHL, but it was the game that he played as a draft-eligible player with Tappara.

I explained why I thought the Lemieux comparrison was ridiculous multiple times. If you think it is because I don't think he'll be that type of generational player fine. But, I pointed out multiple times my specific issue was with Laine's stick handling and ability to cut in. If you fail to recognize that point fine, but that was the main one. Many people thought the other side was ridiculous on both sides of that debate.

That is according to your Youtube timed videos. We have the actual results from the on-ice combine at this point. I will take those results over time youtube videos. He's a good skater, in the upper echelon, but he isn't on the level of Mackinnon and McDavid, who both dominated that testing in their draft years. I don't think anyone else really thinks he is on that level but you. The fastest player going by the testing was Formenton. Previous years, elite skaters that have finished in the top 2 in the exact same testing are McDavid, Marner, Ehlers, Virtanen, Mackinnon and Chcychrun. I'd say that strongly correlates to on-ice skating ability. Hischier finished 4th in his draft year and didn't place top 3 in forward sprints with or without the puck. This obviously is information only available on CHL players.

You are just inferring from an article. I pointed to the actual scout quotes. I don't know what proof you want, on something as qualitative as prospect analysis. You have no evidence that scouts are holding off, or that they are heavily weighting Patrick's numbers from last year. Those are your judgments from reading the article. You seem incapable of believing people can view Patrick as the better player due to his skill set. You are taking what McKenzie is writing as actual scout quotes, which it isn't unless he has directly quoted them. I've pointed to the qualties that would lead some to take Patrick over Hischier, you either dismiss them as "that is why he's a 2nd line center" or that they are hesitent. Nico Hischier isn't an unknown product to NHL scouts. He has been heavily scouted since he was 16 at last years Hlinka, U-18's and U-20's. This isn't a Kopitar situation.

And how many times must I say it. I never said they all viewed him as a franchise center, but that some might, which is supported by quotes in multiple places. Particularly by Button, but also by quotes from McCrimmon.

But since you seem so fixated by quotes. Here's one from a Traikos article earlier this year.

One scout called him a franchise centre. Another described him as a coach’s dream, the sort of player you can put on the ice in any type of situation, whether you’re up or down a goal.

http://news.nationalpost.com/sports...coveted-shot-at-world-junior-coming-out-party

There are a number of very good players available in the 2017 NHL Draft, but Nolan Patrick of the Brandon Wheat Kings is a franchise centre and superior talent who stands alone at No. 1.

http://www.tsn.ca/craig-s-list-nolan-patrick-stands-above-the-rest-1.566071

What better way for a franchise to begin than with a franchise center?

http://lastwordonsports.com/2016/10/11/nhl-teams-nolan-patrick-sweepstakes/

He's far from perfect, he might only be a Monahan level prospect, but that doesn't mean Hischier's more dynamic skill set should be automatically more valued. But, you seem to want to debate this to death. If you can't respect that other people have different value systems for prospects and players, I don't know what else there is to discuss. Hischier could pass Patrick, but right now Patrick is the odds on favorite to hold his spot, and it isn't based on numbers.

 

[Frk It]

Most recently, this discussion has been about rationalizing the decision to rank Patrick ahead of Hischier in the midterm rankings, and I have provided ample evidence of the tentative language that was used in the report to infer that this was a matter of caution. You, on the other hand, have made unsubstantiated claims about others' opinions -- you offer no proof.

Your interpretation of the language used is an opinion, and not evidence of a damn thing.

I understand some of your other points, but you are really grasping at straws with that narrative. Also the language doesn't change the ranking, which is what matters more.

 

[BruinLVGA]

I'm not sure that the eye test favors Patrick. His point total is impressive (if one accepts them at face value), but aside from that, his play has not impressed to anywhere near the same degree that Hischier's has. This is subjective, but I am not convinced that eight out of the ten scouts feel that Patrick's qualitative performances are better than Hischier's.

I believe that these the same scouts who concluded in the preseason rankings that Patrick was projected to be a second-line center.

http://www.tsn.ca/mckenzie-s-pre-season-ranking-the-nolan-patrick-draft-1.567410

Honestly, the only thing keeping Hischier, who fits the criteria that these scouts want in a Number One pick, from being ranked Number One right now appears to be the fact that he came from nowhere. McKenzie alluded to that in yesterday's midterm report. I can see it being a matter of caution to see whether Nico, who was ranked sixteenth in the preseason rankings, can sustain this level of play.

That's what I think is going on, too.

 

[JA]

That is according to your Youtube timed videos. We have the actual results from the on-ice combine at this point. I will take those results over time youtube videos. He's a good skater, in the upper echelon, but he isn't on the level of Mackinnon and McDavid, who both dominated that testing in their draft years. I don't think anyone else really thinks he is on that level but you. The fastest player going by the testing was Formenton. Previous years, elite skaters that have finished in the top 2 in the exact same testing are McDavid, Marner, Ehlers, Virtanen, Mackinnon and Chcychrun. I'd say that strongly correlates to on-ice skating ability. Hischier finished 4th in his draft year and didn't place top 3 in forward sprints with or without the puck. This obviously is information only available on CHL players.

Be careful not to put too much stock into a one-off combine test.

Connor McDavid has clocked faster times in-game than in some skating tests. Not every attempt is identical either; he is actually faster in his second attempt here with the puck than he is in his first attempt without it.



His rush to score the OT goal against Buffalo last season had him clocked at an even higher blue line-to-blue line speed than either of the two Sportingtest drills.

There isn't a large enough sample size from a single combine test to determine how fast a player is. Numerous factors can come into play, such as the quality of the player's start and their technique that day to their health or just the way that they feel; it would certainly depend on how their body feels that day, whether they are sluggish or springy. When you are dealing with tenths and hundredths of a second, every little detail factors in. No player has ever duplicated the same time on two separate fastest skater races; every attempt is different.

If you sprinted 50 meters forward and had each time recorded, every attempt would be slightly different.

Sometimes, a player is not on; sometimes they are. In 1998, Pavel Bure was nearly half a second slower than Scott Neidermayer was in the All Star Fastest Skater event. He placed fourth among the participants.

Skills Competition: [Final Edition]
The Vancouver Sun; Vancouver, B.C. [Vancouver, B.C] 19 Jan 1998: C4.

...

FASTEST SKATER

World 13.88 (Valeri Kamensky 14.10, Pavel Bure 13.99, Peter Bondra 13.63) def. North American 13.97 (Darryl Sydor 14.64, Tony Amonte 13.70, Scott Niedermayer 13.56).

...

In the 1992 Canucks Skills Competition, Bure didn't even place Top Five.

Bure no fast-skating blur in superskills qualifying: [1* Edition]
Pap, Elliott. The Vancouver Sun; Vancouver, B.C. [Vancouver, B.C] 02 Dec 1992: D9.

We all know Pavel Bure is the fastest skater on the Vancouver Canucks, maybe in the entire NHL, right? Well, that all depends.

On Tuesday, the Canucks held a preliminary round for the all-star weekend's Superskills Challenge and Bure didn't even place among the top five in a one-lap skate.

Robert Kron led the qualifiers, followed by Trevor Linden, Garry Valk, Geoff Courtnall and Tom Fergus.

What happened? Seems Bure knows he'll be appearing in the all-star game anyway, based on fan voting and his tremendous first half, so he dogged the skate to leave the door open for a teammate.

...

We have enough in-game samples of Hischier to see that he has speed that can match the best in the NHL, and he reaches that speed on a regular basis. On his breakaway goals against Czech Republic and Team Cherry, he started skating from the near blue line; by the time he reached the far blue line, he had reached top speed and was cruising down the offensive zone as quickly as he did in those familiar Halifax examples; Centre Videotron is regulation sized, as is Bell Centre. Through the neutral zone, he naturally was not as fast as he was in the example starting from his own goal line and he also tried to gauge his speed so that he could receive the puck in the more recent example, but from the far blue line to the hash marks he skated towards the net at top speed.



The same can be said from the far blue line in on the first play here:

 

[S E P H]

JetsAlternative brings up a good point on if Patrick is being continually ranked 1st overall even with his injuries because Hischier came out of nowhere. I admit I am not a huge Patrick fan, but he's quite similar to Hischier. I don't think ranking either one at 1st overall is making a mistake, it comes down to a relative preference on how a single person projects them in the NHL. Some people see Patrick as a Getzlaf and have him 1st overall. I have Hischier possessing better offensive potential than Nolan, but I have Vilardi 1st overall in my lists.

Nonetheless, I'll go a step further and ask; if Leon Draisaitl was Canadian/American, would he have challenged Ekblad for 1st overall? I suggest he would.

 

[93LEAFS]

JetsAlternative brings up a good point on if Patrick is being continually ranked 1st overall even with his injuries because Hischier came out of nowhere. I admit I am not a huge Patrick fan, but he's quite similar to Hischier. I don't think ranking either one at 1st overall is making a mistake, it comes down to a relative preference on how a single person projects them in the NHL. Some people see Patrick as a Getzlaf and have him 1st overall. I have Hischier possessing better offensive potential than Nolan, but I have Vilardi 1st overall in my lists.

Nonetheless, I'll go a step further and ask; if Leon Draisaitl was Canadian/American, would he have challenged Ekblad for 1st overall? I suggest he would.

Maybe, but I don't think so. Similar to Vilardi right now, people had very serious questions about his skating, plus that draft was a free for all at the top. Many thought Reinhart or Bennett could go 1 because Flordia was willing to trade down and Benning coveted Reinhart.

Hischier also didn't really come out of nowhere. This isn't like Kopitar in 2005 or Borgstrom last year. Hischier was well known from the international circuit as mentioned in the article by Bob. He's been present at marquee events as a notable underager. He was at the 2015 and 2016 U-18's, 2015 and 2016 Hlinka's and the 2016 WJC's prior to ever playing a game for Halifax. I know of a few places that had him at a top 10 pick prior to this years Hlinka. I mean, HockeyProspect.com had him at 8 in their first 2017 list released in last years Blackbook and Craig had him at 6 in his way too early rankings for this draft released after the 2015 U-17 challenge. He wasn't as high entering this year, because as mentioned, he didn't have a great Hlinka, which put a small dent in his stock to start the year, while guys like Kostin, and Necas had good tournaments to boosted their stock.

 

[Foppberg]

JetsAlternative brings up a good point on if Patrick is being continually ranked 1st overall even with his injuries because Hischier came out of nowhere. I admit I am not a huge Patrick fan, but he's quite similar to Hischier. I don't think ranking either one at 1st overall is making a mistake, it comes down to a relative preference on how a single person projects them in the NHL. Some people see Patrick as a Getzlaf and have him 1st overall. I have Hischier possessing better offensive potential than Nolan, but I have Vilardi 1st overall in my lists.

Nonetheless, I'll go a step further and ask; if Leon Draisaitl was Canadian/American, would he have challenged Ekblad for 1st overall? I suggest he would.

What's with you and this mindset? You constantly say stuff like this on the Avs board during any international tournament or prospect talk.