C Dylan Larkin (2014, 15th, DET)

[DanZ]

I'm sorry but not being able to "control the pace of the game" is such a lame analysis. What's the point of slowing down when you can fly around effortlessly creating chaos and scoring goals? His pace is very high tempo and it is extremely effective... ala Sydney Crosby or Tyler Johnson. He is an elite skater that uses every inch of ice you give him to his advantage. I would really like to hear why slowing the pace down is such a vital aspect to becoming a franchise player. He doesn't have to be just like Toews or Kopitar to develop into just as impactful of a player. It's worked for him at every level he's played at and it is looking pretty good in Detroit too.

It really is completely grasping at straws. If Larkin ends up like a Fedorov, Crosby, or Johnson as opposed to a Toews I'm completely cool with it. This idea that you need to slow the game down to be a franchise player is nonsense. Larkin's strength is skating and he should use that to his advantage. I don't see Toews doing anything that Larkin isn't capable of doing in a few years himself. If Toews/Kopitar could create separation by outskating the opponent, they would.

 

[LarKing]

I think it says a lot about the Red Wings drafting that the fanbase would be outraged by picking a two way #2c at 15th OA.

For almost any other prospect, no. I'd be disappointed if Nyquist turned into a 45ish point guy, same with Tatar. Both seem to be better than that but are still pretty new to the nhl. I'd be outraged if Larkin turns into a 45 point guy when every sign thus far has pointed to him being a star, potentially a superstar, in this league. We have Evander Kane-like production in spades on the team and potentially down the line with guys like Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Pulkinnen, Mantha, etc. What we don't have is a star to take over when Datsyuk and Zetterberg eventually leave. What we've seen from Larkin has pointed to him being that player, why would I not be outraged if he doesn't come close to his full potential?

 

[DanZ]

I never said you need to be "exceptionally creative".

ok....

It's referred to slowing the game down more often (eventhough it means the opposite as well, as I mentioned), because it is in fact a lot more difficult to do. It's not as difficult to play high tempo in a game where the speed is generally low. Becuase generally all the other players are playing slower. But to slow it down yourself when all the other players are playing with high speed, that's a lot more difficult. You have to be able to thinka nd read the game a lot faster while you still have to be able to be more than reactive - you have to be exceptionally creative. More than often players just get drawn in to the game and rather react than anything else. It's not controlling the game.

Toews isn't an exceptionally creative player.

Players don't need to slow the game down to be franchise players. I don't know where you learned this nonsense.

 

[LarKing]

That's a pretty silly thing to be upset about.

Exactly. I'm not saying that Larkin has no potential to be better than Kane, but it wouldn't bother me if that is the type of player he becomes. Minus some of the locker room grumblings.

It's a silly thing to be upset if a player becomes a 45 point player instead of a first line all star type of player? I'm glad someone is slowing down the Larkin hype a bit, but man, I don't think being upset if our best prospect since Zetterberg doesn't hit his potential is on my list of "silly things" by any means.

 

[DanZ]

It's a silly thing to be upset if a player becomes a 45 point player instead of a first line all star type of player? I'm glad someone is slowing down the Larkin hype a bit, but man, I don't think being upset if our best prospect since Zetterberg doesn't hit his potential is on my list of "silly things" by any means.

Yeah I would not be shocked at all if Larkin hits 40-50 points this season. I would also be disappointed if he peaked production-wise at 19.

 

[wingsnut19]

It's a silly thing to be upset if a player becomes a 45 point player instead of a first line all star type of player? I'm glad someone is slowing down the Larkin hype a bit, but man, I don't think being upset if our best prospect since Zetterberg doesn't hit his potential is on my list of "silly things" by any means.

Oh, I'm quite hyped on Larkin. He has a lot of potential and I do think he'll be more than a 45 point player. He's quite obviously better than Tatar and Nyquist were at this point in their careers, and I'd expect at least that type of production out of both of them. I also think Larkin is more defensively responsible than either of them, though he hasn't had to play that role much at this point in the season. I'd be disappointed if he didn't turn out better than a 2C putting up 45 points and playing well defensively, but I wouldn't be outraged. I also don't think that Heraldic is being as critical of him as everyone seems to think he is. He's saying that Larkin isn't Toews. I don't see why that is such a big deal.

 

[DanZ]

Oh, I'm quite hyped on Larkin. He has a lot of potential and I do think he'll be more than a 45 point player. He's quite obviously better than Tatar and Nyquist were at this point in their careers, and I'd expect at least that type of production out of both of them. I also think Larkin is more defensively responsible than either of them, though he hasn't had to play that role much at this point in the season. I'd be disappointed if he didn't turn out better than a 2C putting up 45 points and playing well defensively, but I wouldn't be outraged. I also don't think that Heraldic is being as critical of him as everyone seems to think he is. He's saying that Larkin isn't Toews. I don't see why that is such a big deal.

He's saying that because he isn't Toews that he doesn't have franchise center potential. That's the silly part.

No prospect is a surefire franchise center. Not Eichel. Not McDavid. I don't think anyone's saying that it's guaranteed, but he has as good of a chance as anyone. It has nothing to do with his playing style.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I really would appreciate you bringing some clips or anything else to support your view. Because I'm seriously really curious to see if he he has ever done something that I have never seen him doing.

I'm not really sure what would fit your definition of 'slowing the game down' or 'controling the pace' here. I thought his play when he assisted Abdelkader's goal against Toronto was a good example though.

But again, not sure what you're looking for. Part of what 'controlling the pace' means is getting the game to go at the speed you're most comfortable in. For guys like Datsyuk and Kane, that means slowing things down. When the game is slow, they have more time and space to operate. For a guy like Larkin, that means pushing the pace. When the game is fast, few players keep up with him.

 

[Heraldic]

I'm sorry but not being able to "control the pace of the game" is such a lame analysis. What's the point of slowing down when you can fly around effortlessly creating chaos and scoring goals? His pace is very high tempo and it is extremely effective... ala Sydney Crosby or Tyler Johnson. He is an elite skater that uses every inch of ice you give him to his advantage. I would really like to hear why slowing the pace down is such a vital aspect to becoming a franchise player. He doesn't have to be just like Toews or Kopitar to develop into just as impactful of a player. It's worked for him at every level he's played at and it is looking pretty good in Detroit too.

If you really have to ask that, I recommend you to re-read my post. With care.

ok....

Toews isn't an exceptionally creative player.

Players don't need to slow the game down to be franchise players. I don't know where you learned this nonsense.

Okay, you got me there. I should have said "really" instead of "exceptional", because I agree that Toews isn't exceptionally creative while he can be defined as "creative", though.

Still doesn't really make the difference. So far I haven't really noticed anything in Larkin games (on any level) that indicates that he is going to control the pace. Can he develop that? Of course. It is really rare to see one develop it in NHL if he hasn't really done it before. I think so.

He's saying that because he isn't Toews that he doesn't have franchise center potential. That's the silly part.

No prospect is a surefire franchise center. Not Eichel. Not McDavid. I don't think anyone's saying that it's guaranteed, but he has as good of a chance as anyone. It has nothing to do with his playing style.

No, I'm saying that he isn't like those mentioned guys because IMO he has never really showed the ability to control the game...

It's totally okay to think that you can be a franchise center without that ability. I just don't really can name any outside of Crosby (and he can do it as well in some extent).

And yes, even calling Eichel or McDavid surefire franchise players is just stupid. I think you can legitimately believe that without any serious injuries both of those will be, but you never now for sure.

I'm not really sure what would fit your definition of 'slowing the game down' or 'controling the pace' here. I thought his play when he assisted Abdelkader's goal against Toronto was a good example though.

I see him rushing the puck to to the o-zone and getting himself in the corner and winning a battle and coming from the corner with the puck. That's not exactly slowing the game down. Slowing the game down doesn't have to happen on o-zone. But

It might be that I'm not making myself too clear (because it is pretty hard to describe it with just words). And it is really difficult to show that without actually watching a full game and pointing situation's and times. Because those moments don't usually get caught on highlights.

But again, not sure what you're looking for. Part of what 'controlling the pace' means is getting the game to go at the speed you're most comfortable in. For guys like Datsyuk and Kane, that means slowing things down. When the game is slow, they have more time and space to operate. For a guy like Larkin, that means pushing the pace. When the game is fast, few players keep up with him.

No, it's a lot more than getting the game to go at the speed you're comfortable in. That's what makes the difference between good or great players and franchise players. They understand the game deeply, and they know when they have to or should change the pace - not because they can or not sustain with it, but because their teams will benefit from it - not just him or his linemates.

 

[Heraldic]

And I have to say that I understand that this looks like "just critizing the player with straws".

But I recommend you to remember, that there simply wouldn't be any reason for me to offer any of these posts without this talk about him being a surefire franchise player or comparisons to Toews/Kopitar.

Like I said before, it really is a shame that there seems to be so many Wings fans (not all of them) pumping his tires really, really lot without really giving any deeper thought for it.

All this dissecting his game can easily bury the fact that he is doing a great job as a 19 years old rookie. The fact that there seems to be so many posters eager to stamp him with these "sure franchise player" "similar to Toews/Kopitar" labels is actually doing him a disfavor.

I really don't understand the need for getting silly with your prospects. I think you can be happy about your prospect doing a great job without getting yourself in full nelson.

 

[TheRatPoisoner]

He is more similar to players like Crosby, Bergeron, Backes, Kesler and Girgensons.

Yes, because when I look at Crosby, the first name that comes to mind is Zemgus Girgensons.

Pretty much confirms for me that you're not making a coherent argument here.

It's only 3 games in, but the kid seems legit to me. Don't think it's a stretch at all to call him a dark-horse for the calder like some people have been saying recently.

 

[Heraldic]

Yes, because when I look at Crosby, the first name that comes to mind is Zemgus Girgensons.

Pretty much confirms for me that you're not making a coherent argument here.

You're seriously that bad at comprehending what you read?

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

It's not about him not slowing the game (or even trying to) in NHL.

It's about him not doing it in NCAA either. And that's where we seem to disagree. For me his game has been pretty much similar in NCAA, WC and NHL (didn't really see a whole game in AHL, but don't think it was any different) - and that's the biggest reason he has adjusted so well and quick - he has been able to bring his game pretty some the same in NHL. More than often prospects need to adjust their game because they're not mature yet.

I really would appreciate you bringing some clips or anything else to support your view. Because I'm seriously really curious to see if he he has ever done something that I have never seen him doing.

And this is not about "just bringing up something negative because there isn't anything to criticize). My stance has been exactly the same from the moment I saw these "surefire franchise player" and "comparable to Toews/Kopitar" comments, which drew my attention. His games so far have just fortified and strengthened my original stance. My stance has never been that he is a bad player/prospect or anything like that.

Seriously? You're all over the place. First it was that he isn't a good enough playmaker. When he showed that, you moved on. Now he "can't control the pace", and in your book that's true of him because he essentially plays the game too quickly.

You're just nitpicking. I think instead of finding reasons and using them to show why Larkin won't be a star, you've decided that Larkin won't be a star and are finding reasons to fit the conclusion.

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

Seriously? You're all over the place. First it was that he isn't a good enough playmaker. When he showed that, you moved on. Now he "can't control the pace", and in your book that's true of him because he essentially plays the game too quickly.

You're just nitpicking. I think instead of finding reasons and using them to show why Larkin won't be a star, you've decided that Larkin won't be a star and are finding reasons to fit the conclusion.

I'm really surprised people still bother arguing with Heraldic considering his history of downplaying every prospect Detroit had had since 2009.

IIRC he pulled the same arguments with Nyquist, Tatar, and Pulks and they have all worked out pretty well to date.

 

[Sebastian Svechnikov]

I'm sorry but not being able to "control the pace of the game" is such a lame analysis. What's the point of slowing down when you can fly around effortlessly creating chaos and scoring goals? His pace is very high tempo and it is extremely effective... ala Sydney Crosby or Tyler Johnson. He is an elite skater that uses every inch of ice you give him to his advantage. I would really like to hear why slowing the pace down is such a vital aspect to becoming a franchise player. He doesn't have to be just like Toews or Kopitar to develop into just as impactful of a player. It's worked for him at every level he's played at and it is looking pretty good in Detroit too.

+1 it's a ridiculous criticism and garbage "analysis"

 

[LarKing]

I'm really surprised people still bother arguing with Heraldic considering his history of downplaying every prospect Detroit had had since 2009.

IIRC he pulled the same arguments with Nyquist, Tatar, and Pulks and they have all worked out pretty well to date.

This. Ridiculous how many people still take this poster seriously.

 

[Heraldic]

Seriously? You're all over the place. First it was that he isn't a good enough playmaker. When he showed that, you moved on. Now he "can't control the pace", and in your book that's true of him because he essentially plays the game too quickly.

You're just nitpicking. I think instead of finding reasons and using them to show why Larkin won't be a star, you've decided that Larkin won't be a star and are finding reasons to fit the conclusion.

If you're looking for the definion of a strawman argument, this whole post would do the job perfectly.

I have never said anything about Larkin being a "star" or not being one.

And yes, he hasn't been firstly or a secondly a playmaker like Toews/Kopitar. Geez, is every Wings fans as bad as understanding very simple things?

And sure, it's me who is to fault when in reality many Wings fans have understood that this "Toews/Kopitar" thing is bs, and has admitted that he is not a player like them. And that's what I have been saying all the time.

I'm really surprised people still bother arguing with Heraldic considering his history of downplaying every prospect Detroit had had since 2009.

IIRC he pulled the same arguments with Nyquist, Tatar, and Pulks and they have all worked out pretty well to date.

+1 it's a ridiculous criticism and garbage "analysis"

This. Ridiculous how many people still take this poster seriously.

[mod]
And for the note, I haven't really talked anything about Nyquist or Tatar. Except that they're pretty much pure offensive wingers (because I have seen wings fans telling some nonsense about their great two-way game). And there's nothing wrong in there[mod]

And yes, I have said that Pulkkinen really haven't looked like a future perennial 30 goal scorer that I have seen him being hyped as.

And you forgot Xavier Ouellet, who I "dared to bash", when someone offered some crappy corsi-stat analysis and said he's comparable to Doughty, Chara etc, and I showed that those stats made Jakub Kindl look a lot better defenseman than Niklas Kronwall.
[mod]

 

[Redwingsfan]

I think it says a lot about the Red Wings drafting that the fanbase would be outraged by picking a two way #2c at 15th OA.

Its more about what he's shown us since he was drafted than draft position and Wings drafting.

He's done nothing but impress since the draft, and is looking surprisingly good already at the NHL level. Expectations are high. All signs points to him becoming a #1 C in the future. If he doesn't, it will obviously be a bit of a disappointment.

 

[TheMule93]

Dylan Larkin leads the Wings in 5v5 high-danger scoring chances, scoring chances, and corsi for. His 13 shot attempts are double 2nd place

https://twitter.com/iyer_prashanth/status/654420425229893634?s=09

Zetterberg is lucky he gets to play with Larkin

 

[obey86]

Dylan Larkin leads the Wings in 5v5 high-danger scoring chances, scoring chances, and corsi for. His 13 shot attempts are double 2nd place

https://twitter.com/iyer_prashanth/status/654420425229893634?s=09

Zetterberg is lucky he gets to play with Larkin

Prashanth Iyer ‏@iyer_prashanth 4h4 hours ago
And that tweet about Larkin should actually read 19 shot attempts! Which is still more than double 2nd place (Pulkkinen) who has 9.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Dylan Larkin leads the Wings in 5v5 high-danger scoring chances, scoring chances, and corsi for. His 13 shot attempts are double 2nd place

https://twitter.com/iyer_prashanth/status/654420425229893634?s=09

Zetterberg is lucky he gets to play with Larkin

Obviously, sample size.

 

[obey86]

I just love how aggressive he is when he has the puck. He isn't afraid to shoot or take it to the net. He looks sooooo confident out there. A lot of young players defer too much to the vets.

 

[Leafs87]

By far the most NHL ready rookie this season. Couldn't even tell he was a rookie playing his first game against Toronto last Friday

 

[Redwingsfan]

I just love how aggressive he is when he has the puck. He isn't afraid to shoot or take it to the net. He looks sooooo confident out there. A lot of young players defer too much to the vets.

Yeah, he believes in his own abilities and it shows. I hope he gets to stay on the PP. I understand Blashill not just handing it to him from the first game, but I think its obvious at this point that he's one of the teams best offensive weapons. The way he hunts down loose pucks can also be a real asset towards regaining possession quickly.

 

[2020 Cup Champions]

He was very good against us. :thumbsup: