Line Combos: Build a lineup poll #7: 3LW

[Monk]

The Jack Johnson edition of the lineup poll:

So here is the (not) much-discussed lineup poll. Instead of Torts' slot machine line generator, we'll be voting for each spot on the roster, building each line one spot at a time. We started with 1LW, and will work our way through the forward lines and on to D pairs and starter and backup goalies.

This poll includes every forward reasonably expected to be available to the team whenever the season should start.

Vote for your choice for third line LW, and the winner will be slotted there and removed from subsequent polls. Sure, there are some nuances such a process doesn't allow for - there will be times when you can't vote for who you'd like at a spot because they've already been slotted somewhere else, or there's a combo you like that gets nixed along the way. You can alter, or not, your subsequent voting accordingly.

Here's to the continuation of a new tradition!

Forward lines
Alexandre Texier - Pierre-Luc Dubois - Oliver Bjorkstrand
Nick Foligno - Max Domi - Cam Atkinson
3LW - 3C - 3RW

Click to read more...

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

We suck at intrigue.

 

[majormajor]

We suck at intrigue.

- It's funny that we're so far just re-iterating the top-9 lines that Torts suggested a month or so ago.

- I liked Torts' lines too. For me it's just that I thought those lines seemed like a reasonable place to start, the more fractious debate will be on what to do when those lines need to be changed. Who goes up, who goes down, who comes in and out. For instance, if Jenner doesn't click at 3LW, I'm not going to sweat putting him at 4C or 4LW. I'd also love to see Foligno back with Dubois and Bjorkstrand, and most fans here probably would not prefer that.

- It looks to me like we might have two interchangeable bottom six lines. The Koivu line is just probably the one that will get tougher matchups, while the other line will probably be easier to score with. I'm assuming people are voting Koivu as 3C and so voting here for the guys that can play some tough matchups alongside him, I don't think it's a better spot for offensive talent.

- I think this level of agreement so far is a bit of a fluke, we really don't normally blandly agree this much. Rest assured!

 

[MoeBartoli]

This selection was the first one I answered with less commitment. I debated between Foudy and Jenner. Foudy is obviously a bigger question mark which led me to go with Jenner. However I’m a bit unsatisfied with my selection as if I end up with Bemstrom (?) as my 3RW and Koivu at 3C (likely), I’m just not crazy about the combo.

I’m hoping we land a another LW that would allow Foligno to play 3RW with this line or as an alternative Foligno slotting in with Koivu and Bemstrom. ........I might prefer Boone as 4LW with Nash and maybe Robinson as an 10-12 minute 4th line which would give Boone 12-14 minutes TOI when factoring in PK duties, in fact Boone and Nash could both draw PK time. My belief is that the condensed schedule will require the 4th line to get ample TOI.

As you can see, I’m flexible on how this could play out.

 

[koteka]

I think we should have done 3c before 3lw. The center for the first two lines was clear, so it didn’t matter that we did lw first. But it might matter here.

 

[Monk]

I think we should have done 3c before 3lw. The center for the first two lines was clear, so it didn’t matter that we did lw first. But it might matter here.

I've enjoyed thinking about the lines not through the lens of the center. I get why we always do that, but I like that we're not here. The 3LW pick can inform the 3C pick just as much as the inverse. But also, Boone has 78% of the vote so I'm not sure it would make a difference. Or maybe that 78% is also unknowingly in agreement on the 3C, too.

Personally, I just think Boone is the right man for the job almost regardless of the center. At least to start.

 

[koteka]

I've enjoyed thinking about the lines not through the lens of the center. I get why we always do that, but I like that we're not here. The 3LW pick can inform the 3C pick just as much as the inverse. But also, Boone has 78% of the vote so I'm not sure it would make a difference. Or maybe that 78% is also unknowingly in agreement on the 3C, too.

Personally, I just think Boone is the right man for the job almost regardless of the center. At least to start.

Maybe Boone would have won the vote for center, too. If we assume the potential centers are PLD, Tex, Domi, Jenner, Foligno, Nash, and Koivu, and that PLD, Tex, Domi, and Foligno are already slated for top two lines, that leaves Nash, Koivu, and Jenner as potential centers. Maybe people already have decided on Nash and Koivu so Boone is their pick for LW. Or maybe people think Boone is the 7th best forward so they vote for him next. Or some combination of the two. Or it could be the case that a bunch of people see Koivu as 3c and think Boone would be a good wing for him and a bunch of people see Nash as 3c and think Boone belongs with Nash.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

No matter which slot gets voted first, some (many? all?) will be voting based on who they want/expect them to skate with on a line.

It's also interesting to wonder if doing it this way might cause us to think about who slots where differently because we're ostensibly doing it in isolation.

 

[Doggy]

OK, I am getting on a soapbox and going a completely different direction here. Seems to me putting Fligs on the left side in the top two and Boone on the 3rd line is insanity. Its doing the same thing over and over and over and hoping for different results.

Grigorenko

• I am assuming Koivu or Boone begin the year as the #3C so Grigs doesn't fit there
• Grigs is a left handed shot so I expect he is more suited to LW than RW.
• We also know Grigs is not the most physical player so burying him on the 4th line makes zero sense unless the team wants him to fail

Part of the point of coaching is to put players in the best position for them to succeed. Grigorenko has playmaking ability and can also score a little. At 26 he's entering his prime and should be coming into camp with lots of confidence after two pretty successful KHL seasons. Personally I would have voted Grigs at 2LW but clearly the majority of you want to see are more comfortable with the same non-offensive crap again this year (just one more year older and one more year removed from his best days).

Don't get me wrong, I like Fligs but I liked Derek Mackenzie too, didn't mean I wanted to see him centering the second line.

So give me Grigs at 3LW. He has to earn it but I WANT Grigs to earn that 3LW and then push Captain for playing time higher in the lineup.

Edited to change my choice of words above

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

OK, I am getting on a soapbox and going a completely different direction here. Seems to me putting Fligs on the left side in the top two and Boone on the 3rd line is insanity. Its doing the same thing over and over and over and hoping for different results.

Grigorenko

• I am assuming Koivu or Boone begin the year as the #3C so Grigs doesn't fit there
• Grigs is a left handed shot so I expect he is more suited to LW than RW.
• We also know Grigs is not the most physical player so burying him on the 4th line makes zero sense unless the team wants him to fail

Part of the point of coaching is to put players in the best position for them to succeed. Grigorenko has playmaking ability and can also score a little. At 26 he's entering his prime and should be coming into camp with lots of confidence after two pretty successful KHL seasons. Personally I would have voted Grigs at 2LW but clearly the majority of you want to see the same non-offensive crap again this year (just one more year older and one more year removed from his best days).

Don't get me wrong, I like Fligs but I liked Derek Mackenzie too, didn't mean I wanted to see him centering the second line.

So give me Grigs at 3LW. He has to earn it but I WANT Grigs to earn that 3LW and then push Captain for playing time higher in the lineup.

Grigs is probably why Jarmo didn't and won't bring in a Gus replacement.

 

[koteka]

I see the last 2 lines as

Robinson - Jenner - Grigorenko
Nash - Koivu - Bemstrom

I have Jenner over Nash as a center because I tried to make a 3rd scoring line. But they might be interchangeable.

Bemstrom with Koivu is intriguing to me. What a guy for Bemstrom to learn from this year. Maybe Boone gets the nod over Nash being with Koivu in case Koivu gets kicked out of the face off, since Boone is better on face offs.

 

[koteka]

• Grigs is a left handed shot so I expect he is more suited to LW than RW

I thought he was playing right wing in the KHL. That is why I have in on the third line as a right wing.

 

[Monk]

OK, I am getting on a soapbox and going a completely different direction here. Seems to me putting Fligs on the left side in the top two and Boone on the 3rd line is insanity. Its doing the same thing over and over and over and hoping for different results.

Grigorenko

• I am assuming Koivu or Boone begin the year as the #3C so Grigs doesn't fit there
• Grigs is a left handed shot so I expect he is more suited to LW than RW.
• We also know Grigs is not the most physical player so burying him on the 4th line makes zero sense unless the team wants him to fail

Part of the point of coaching is to put players in the best position for them to succeed. Grigorenko has playmaking ability and can also score a little. At 26 he's entering his prime and should be coming into camp with lots of confidence after two pretty successful KHL seasons. Personally I would have voted Grigs at 2LW but clearly the majority of you want to see the same non-offensive crap again this year (just one more year older and one more year removed from his best days).

Don't get me wrong, I like Fligs but I liked Derek Mackenzie too, didn't mean I wanted to see him centering the second line.

So give me Grigs at 3LW. He has to earn it but I WANT Grigs to earn that 3LW and then push Captain for playing time higher in the lineup.

Last time Grigs played in the NHL, he had 1 point fewer than Jenner did last year. I'm not sure I agree that voting Boone or Nick over Grigs automatically means folks want non-offensive crap. I sure don't, and I'm interested to see the 2nd line we created - Max Domi plus a healthy Cam could go a long way toward improving on last year's offensive output. Plus more growth from all 3 of the top line guys.

And just to say it, I'm voting for what I want to see tried in camp, and it certainly might not work.

 

[Doggy]

Last time Grigs played in the NHL, he had 1 point fewer than Jenner did last year. I'm not sure I agree that voting Boone or Nick over Grigs automatically means folks want non-offensive crap. I sure don't, and I'm interested to see the 2nd line we created - Max Domi plus a healthy Cam could go a long way toward improving on last year's offensive output. Plus more growth from all 3 of the top line guys.

And just to say it, I'm voting for what I want to see tried in camp, and it certainly might not work.

Perhaps my choice of words was wrong about other fans 'wanting" to see the same non-offensive crap but my point still stands. Playing Fligs in the top six is status quo...or like worse...a step backwards since he is now yet another year past thirty. Either way it doesn't help us solve our biggest weakness: scoring goals.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Perhaps my choice of words was wrong about other fans 'wanting" to see the same non-offensive crap but my point still stands. Playing Fligs in the top six is status quo...or like worse...a step backwards since he is now yet another year past thirty. Either way it doesn't help us solve our biggest weakness: scoring goals.

Despite evidence/data to support that he was the best 3rd for PLD and Bjork?

 

[Monk]

Perhaps my choice of words was wrong about other fans 'wanting" to see the same non-offensive crap but my point still stands. Playing Fligs in the top six is status quo...or like worse...a step backwards since he is now yet another year past thirty. Either way it doesn't help us solve our biggest weakness: scoring goals.

We were overrun with the notion that Domi thrives with a physical player on his wing, so I want to see it tried is the short version of my logic.

EDIT: And by thrives, I mean putting up points. Offense. My goal in putting Nick on Domi's wing was to have goals get scored.

 

[Doggy]

Last time Grigs played in the NHL, he had 1 point fewer than Jenner did last year. I'm not sure I agree that voting Boone or Nick over Grigs automatically means folks want non-offensive crap. I sure don't, and I'm interested to see the 2nd line we created - Max Domi plus a healthy Cam could go a long way toward improving on last year's offensive output. Plus more growth from all 3 of the top line guys.

And just to say it, I'm voting for what I want to see tried in camp, and it certainly might not work.

Do you think young players can improve on their game? I sure hope so. You are comparing a 23 year old Grigs to an established veteran Boone whose offensive numbers remain steady year after year (he is what he is). Grigs went back to the KHL (presumably to play more and work on his game...and maybe get another shot in the NHL).

His G/Game and Pts/Game have clearly improved in his three seasons in the KHL.
2017: .22 G/G and .51 Pts/G
2018: .31 G/G and .95 Pts/G
2019: .40 G/G and .87 Pts/G

His NHLe (expected NHL scoring based on his KHL scoring) the past two seasons is 23 Gs and 60 Pts over an 82 game season. I would like to see him given the chance to show if those numbers are possible. That would be a nice find for the 2nd line...never mind the 3rd.

 

[Monk]

Do you think young players can improve on their game? I sure hope so. You are comparing a 23 year old Grigs to an established veteran Boone whose offensive numbers remain steady year after year (he is what he is). Grigs went back to the KHL (presumably to play more and work on his game...and maybe get another shot in the NHL).

His G/Game and Pts/Game have clearly improved in his three seasons in the KHL.
2017: .22 G/G and .51 Pts/G
2018: .31 G/G and .95 Pts/G
2019: .40 G/G and .87 Pts/G

His NHLe (expected NHL scoring based on his KHL scoring) the past two seasons is 23 Gs and 60 Pts over an 82 game season. I would like to see him given the chance to show if those numbers are possible. That would be a nice find for the 2nd line...never mind the 3rd.

Yes, I do. And I appreciate the stats. I just don't assume his KHL performance will translate to the NHL. I want to see Grigs prove it before I stick him on the 2nd line, and he doesn't at all meet the "physical winger" criteria I wanted on a line with Domi.

I can absolutely see him proving it in camp/early season games and swapping Nick and Grigs.

EDIT: Although Koteka also makes a good point about him playing RW in the KHL

 

[Doggy]

Despite evidence/data to support that he was the best 3rd for PLD and Bjork?

...and yet most fans are good with re-signing Fligs assuming he recognizes his role is as a 3rd line player and of course with a significant pay cut. Which is it?

 

[Monk]

...and yet most fans are good with re-signing Fligs assuming he recognizes his role is as a 3rd line player and of course with a significant pay cut. Which is it?

I voted based on what I thought would make for a good team. If Nick has such a good year that his agent feels he's worth more than a 3rd liner, well, that's a risk I'm willing to take.

 

[DarkandStormy]

Biggest wild cards to me are Foudy and Grigorenko. Lineup gets a little thin if neither of them are ready/NHL caliber. Looks like they could fill in as a center if needed, potentially, or play either wing. Looks like there is less pressure to get Texier to the middle, especially with the left side being....not great. But I want to see more from Tex if he's going to keep that top spot.

I'm also not going to love Koivu on the 3rd line at center...he was a 4th line guy in Minnesota and if you've got Jenner on the LW, that line is already a little slow. But, if not Koivu, then you're left with Nash, Grigorenko, or Foudy.

I don't really like Bemstrom on a line with Jenner and Koivu (if he is the 3C) and I don't really like him on the 4th line with some combo of Robinson/Nash/Foudy/Grigorneko/Stenlund. Ideally, he'd be on that 2nd line as I think Cam would do well on the 3rd line with Jenner and any of the remaining center options.

As has been the case for awhile, we have too many bottom 6 guys. I still foresee a lot of trouble scoring. I wonder if the NHL will allow for expanded rosters, meaning some games we could see Stenlund fill in the 4th line for some PP help if someone like Bemstrom can't get it going. Would make for an interesting year.

 

[Doggy]

Biggest wild cards to me are Foudy and Grigorenko. Lineup gets a little thin if neither of them are ready/NHL caliber. Looks like they could fill in as a center if needed, potentially, or play either wing. Looks like there is less pressure to get Texier to the middle, especially with the left side being....not great. But I want to see more from Tex if he's going to keep that top spot.

I'm also not going to love Koivu on the 3rd line at center...he was a 4th line guy in Minnesota and if you've got Jenner on the LW, that line is already a little slow. But, if not Koivu, then you're left with Nash, Grigorenko, or Foudy.

I don't really like Bemstrom on a line with Jenner and Koivu (if he is the 3C) and I don't really like him on the 4th line with some combo of Robinson/Nash/Foudy/Grigorneko/Stenlund. Ideally, he'd be on that 2nd line as I think Cam would do well on the 3rd line with Jenner and any of the remaining center options.

As has been the case for awhile, we have too many bottom 6 guys. I still foresee a lot of trouble scoring. I wonder if the NHL will allow for expanded rosters, meaning some games we could see Stenlund fill in the 4th line for some PP help if someone like Bemstrom can't get it going. Would make for an interesting year.

I approve both of these messages. I also don't love Koivu on the third line and think him centreing the 4th line with Robby and Nash would be reasonable.

That third line could be Grigs-Foudy-Bemmer (or Cam if someone pushes him out of the 2RW). That's two guys who have Centre in their DNA so hopefully one of them can step up and make it work...and plenty of speed. I don't know how good a skater Grigs is and if he can keep up with Foudy and Cam.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

...and yet most fans are good with re-signing Fligs assuming he recognizes his role is as a 3rd line player and of course with a significant pay cut. Which is it?

Maybe most fans don't know what the hell we're talking about?

 

[Viqsi]

This selection was the first one I answered with less commitment. I debated between Foudy and Jenner. Foudy is obviously a bigger question mark which led me to go with Jenner. However I’m a bit unsatisfied with my selection as if I end up with Bemstrom (?) as my 3RW and Koivu at 3C (likely), I’m just not crazy about the combo.

I’m hoping we land a another LW that would allow Foligno to play 3RW with this line or as an alternative Foligno slotting in with Koivu and Bemstrom. ........I might prefer Boone as 4LW with Nash and maybe Robinson as an 10-12 minute 4th line which would give Boone 12-14 minutes TOI when factoring in PK duties, in fact Boone and Nash could both draw PK time. My belief is that the condensed schedule will require the 4th line to get ample TOI.

As you can see, I’m flexible on how this could play out.

I had a similar internal debate, and ultimately concluded I was going to vote Foudy as #3C and Jenner as #3LW and have them able to swap jobs as needed.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I had a similar internal debate, and ultimately concluded I was going to vote Foudy as #3C and Jenner as #3LW and have them able to swap jobs as needed.

Yes, even within a shift.