Bring back the Canada Cup/Reform World Cup.

[Jussi]

In other words, it's a fundraiser for small-time programs.

Which is fine, and I have no objection to those programs getting a much needed boost. But to act like the World Championships mean anything beyond boosting the IIHF budget is silly. The Olympics is the clear-cut world championship of record.

Small time programs? You consider the Finnish and Swedish hockey federations "small time programs"? And no, I'm not saying the Worlds are better than the Olympics but that average hockey fan in Europe cares more about them than a World Cup. Worlds are Europe's March Madness or a two week Mardi Gras.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Small time programs? You consider the Finnish and Swedish hockey federations "small time programs"?

Not unless they are in the lower division, per your previous comment about low-division teams needing the opportunity to be promoted. The Finnish and Swedish systems can do just fine with the Olympics as their main goal.

And no, I'm not saying the Worlds are better than the Olympics but that average hockey fan in Europe cares more about them than a World Cup.

That's not saying much considering the World Cup has no credibility as a world championship either.

Again, I understand that the tournament helps raise money and awareness, and I'm not bothered by that. The problem is that it has no credibility as a championship. It's a second-rate tournament by virtue of the fact that it involves primarily second-rate players.

 

[Jussi]

Not unless they are in the lower division, per your previous comment about low-division teams needing the opportunity to be promoted. The Finnish and Swedish systems can do just fine with the Olympics as their main goal.

No they won't. They need the money which hosting the Worlds will bring them. The money won't last forever and therefore you see Finland Sweden hosting the tournament every 5-10 years. The federations don't run on just sponsorship money nor do they get much government backing. Remember also that an increasing amount of money goes into insuring players which the national federations must cover.

 

[Jussi]

I'm not going to start repeating myself why the World Cup doesn't appeal to Europeans, instead I'll refer to this thread: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=858812

 

[tarheelhockey]

No they won't. They need the money which hosting the Worlds will bring them. The money won't last forever and therefore you see Finland Sweden hosting the tournament every 5-10 years. The federations don't run on just sponsorship money nor do they get much government backing. Remember also that an increasing amount of money goes into insuring players which the national federations must cover.

Perhaps it's time to come up with a new business model, then. Depending on this one-off event to fund your entire federation is not a very secure way to keep it afloat.

Anyway, for the third time... I don't have any problem with it being a fundraising event or whathaveyou. But it's not a legitimate world championship. It's obsolete and silly, not unlike the World Cup concept.

 

[wjhl2009fan]

I like the idea of playing on the European ice surfaces. I wish the NHL could switch to them. I understand it's impracticable. A phase in for new arenas could be an interesting possibility. I believe it might go a long way towards solving the scoring and physical injury plays that burden the league today. The game always looks better on the bigger rinks to me.

Maybe a Canada cup should be hosted in the country of the previous winner. Maybe the host country could be selected according to the best performing team not hosting the current event. Back and forth between NA and Europe or Asia if they can catch up.

These kinds of tournaments should operate under the umbrella of the IIHF in any event not the NHL.

No i would not say the games alwas look better on the big ice as for scoring it likely would go down not up and yes the one thing it would cut down on players getting hurt.

 

[Jussi]

Perhaps it's time to come up with a new business model, then. Depending on this one-off event to fund your entire federation is not a very secure way to keep it afloat.

There's no better way to come up with money, there's even less money in hockey in Europe.

Also, while Finland and Sweden might not have relegation fears, imagine if Slovakia failed to get any NHL players to Worlds and were relegated and there was no tournament for two-three years? It would be a devastating blow to their hockey program which already has financial difficulties.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Also, while Finland and Sweden might not have relegation fears, imagine if Slovakia failed to get any NHL players to Worlds and were relegated and there was no tournament for two-three years? It would be a devastating blow to their hockey program which already has financial difficulties.

It doesn't seem to me that the tournament alleviates these fears. If anything, the scenario you described above is one in which the tournament itself is the cause of financial distress.

 

[Hanji]

Perhaps it's time to come up with a new business model, then. Depending on this one-off event to fund your entire federation is not a very secure way to keep it afloat.

Please step outside your American bubble. A country like Finland has only around 5 million in population. There are few resources available to fund the federation without the money from a WC. Lets not kid ourselves, outside of Canada our sport is not a big cash-maker.

Anyway, for the third time... I don't have any problem with it being a fundraising event or whathaveyou. But it's not a legitimate world championship. It's obsolete and silly, not unlike the World Cup concept.

Why do you keep repeating this ad nauseum? For a best-of-the-best hockey standpoint, nobody is saying otherwise.
But for the growth of the game in Europe, both economically and culturally, it is anything but obsolete and silly.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Please step outside your American bubble. A country like Finland has only around 5 million in population. There are few resources available to fund the federation without the money from a WC. Lets not kid ourselves, outside of Canada our sport is not a big cash-maker.

Why stoop to nationalist slurs? All I said was that the funding model doesn't seem sustainable. If that's enough to incite your xenophobia, you need to get out and travel a bit.

Why do you keep repeating this ad nauseum?

Because it's the point I'm trying to make, yet it's being ignored so I have to keep repeating it. If the future of the game in Europe depends on a tournament that has no credibility as a championship, and programs are so dependent on it that they crumble in an off year, there is a serious sustainability issue there that supercedes the short-term infusions of cash that you might get from clinging to the status quo.

 

[Palinka]

Do you grasp just how many massacres will occur in such a tournament? You've only got 6-8 top teams to spread around in those 8 pools, and maybe another 4-6 that can put up a decent fight. The rest get slaughtered, and when the lesser lights play each other, nobody's going to care. ("Next on TSN: Norway versus Great Britain!" )

There is no hole in international hockey for the Canada/World Cup to fill. We get all the best at the Olympics and a subset at the World Championships. Until/unless either of those two facts changes, the Cup is best left in the past.

Indeed. Lithuania in a world cup? Really?

Having spent close to the last year in Europe, I've had the chance to see quite a bit of hockey, and I don't think that the chasm exists between countries to the extent that it once did. It wouldn't look like an NHL All-Star team against a poor junior team. Any of the Division 1 teams would be competitive at the AHL level. And, although the top eight teams would undoubtedly advance to the playoff round, there would be some ferocious fighting for the remaining spots.

I also think that a positive side effect would be seeing some of the players from the lesser European teams start appearing in NHL training camps, which would be beneficial for said countries even if the player doesn't stick.

 

[Hanji]

Why stoop to nationalist slurs? All I said was that the funding model doesn't seem sustainable. If that's enough to incite your xenophobia, you need to get out and travel a bit.




Because it's the point I'm trying to make, yet it's being ignored so I have to keep repeating it. If the future of the game in Europe depends on a tournament that has no credibility as a championship, and programs are so dependent on it that they crumble in an off year, there is a serious sustainability issue there that supercedes the short-term infusions of cash that you might get from clinging to the status quo.

Your point is being ignored because there's no opposition to it. Why keep stating the obvious? Yes, I understand the sky is blue; thank you very much.

I said what I did because, like many North Americans, you seem dismissive of the importance of the WC. You did backhandedly call it 'a fundraiser or whatever'. It is much more than that. The WC is important not only financially for the sport, but culturally as well. It's very similar to the WJC in Canada.

However, I do agree that it is a risky funding model, but, realistically the only viable one. There is no other way to fund the sport so this, in and of itself, should highlight the importance of the WC. Like I posted earlier, our sport is a small one worldwide and any true hockey supporter (regardless of nationality) should support the WC because the health of the global game depends on it. It's quite the contrast from a World Cup which essentially amounts to a huge cash grab for the NHL and its owners.

 

[nutbar]

Having spent close to the last year in Europe, I've had the chance to see quite a bit of hockey, and I don't think that the chasm exists between countries to the extent that it once did. It wouldn't look like an NHL All-Star team against a poor junior team. Any of the Division 1 teams would be competitive at the AHL level. And, although the top eight teams would undoubtedly advance to the playoff round, there would be some ferocious fighting for the remaining spots.

I also think that a positive side effect would be seeing some of the players from the lesser European teams start appearing in NHL training camps, which would be beneficial for said countries even if the player doesn't stick.

There is a huge gap between current Div 1 teams like Italy and Kazakhstan which do have some AHL caliber players and teams like Estonia, Lithuania and Spain which have very very few, if any. The Lithuanian national team is largely composed of players from Energia Elektranai which plays in the Latvian league, a league described as 'half-professional'.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I said what I did because, like many North Americans, you seem dismissive of the importance of the WC. You did backhandedly call it 'a fundraiser or whatever'. It is much more than that. The WC is important not only financially for the sport, but culturally as well. It's very similar to the WJC in Canada.

That's a stretch. The WJC actually has credibility as a definitive world championship within its age boundaries. The amount of emotion that surrounds it, both positive and negative, is testament to that. Also, it's a proving ground for the best young players in the world in a peer-to-peer context.

In other words, the tournament itself actually means something in the broader context of international competition and development. The WC does not -- it is, literally, a fundraiser for the programs involved. If you want to think of me as an arrogant insulated American for pointing that out, fine. Perhaps it's emotionally easier for you to be critical of me than to be critical of the WC.

However, I do agree that it is a risky funding model, but, realistically the only viable one. There is no other way to fund the sport

I doubt very much that the ONLY viable funding model is this tournament. It's simply the status quo.

 

[GummoMarx]

No there won't. You really think they can arrange such a tournament in such a short notice? Good one.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2009/01/17/world_cup_hockey_return/

Yeah it is a good one. Granted this was announced two years ago, so things may have changed since, but this was the last I've heard about the third installment.

 

[Jussi]

That's a stretch. The WJC actually has credibility as a definitive world championship within its age boundaries. The amount of emotion that surrounds it, both positive and negative, is testament to that. Also, it's a proving ground for the best young players in the world in a peer-to-peer context.

In other words, the tournament itself actually means something in the broader context of international competition and development.

In North America. Because in the grand scale, to Europeans it's still juniors and therefore "meh" as the cool kids like to say.

 

[Jussi]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2009/01/17/world_cup_hockey_return/

Yeah it is a good one. Granted this was announced two years ago, so things may have changed since, but this was the last I've heard about the third installment.

See the the thread I linked, there's an audio link in one of the posts in the 3rd page to a Bettman interview where he confirms it.

 

[Jussi]

I doubt very much that the ONLY viable funding model is this tournament. It's simply the status quo.

Well feel free to offer alternatives then.

 

[Hanji]

That's a stretch. The WJC actually has credibility as a definitive world championship within its age boundaries. The amount of emotion that surrounds it, both positive and negative, is testament to that. Also, it's a proving ground for the best young players in the world in a peer-to-peer context.

In other words, the tournament itself actually means something in the broader context of international competition and development. The WC does not -- it is, literally, a fundraiser for the programs involved. If you want to think of me as an arrogant insulated American for pointing that out, fine. Perhaps it's emotionally easier for you to be critical of me than to be critical of the WC.

I see you can't refute any of my my points so you talk about best v best scenarios again; something, at least in terms of on ice competition, everybody in this thread agrees with anyways.
What you can't refute is that the WC, despite not being a best v best, is vital for the financial and cultural well-being of the game. Hence it is anything but meaningless.

I compared the WC to WJC in terms of financial and cultural importance. Like the WC, the WJC is a IIHF event (IIHF funding model) and, much like the WC is to Europeans, the WJC extremely important to Canada's sporting culture.

Level of play ≠ importance to the game.

I doubt very much that the ONLY viable funding model is this tournament. It's simply the status quo.

Yep. All the European Hockey Federations could be rolling in cash right now, but they'd prefer to keep status quo.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Having spent close to the last year in Europe, I've had the chance to see quite a bit of hockey, and I don't think that the chasm exists between countries to the extent that it once did. It wouldn't look like an NHL All-Star team against a poor junior team.

It wouldn't be far off in some cases. The WC, with 12-16 teams sees its fair share of blowouts, and that's with the top countries icing nowhere near their best rosters. Adding in another 8-12 counties at the bottom, and Canada, Sweden, etc. having access to all of their top players? Yikes. I have little doubt that we'd see scores in excess of 20-0 if you were to pit Crosby and co. against the likes of Hungary and Japan. Who wants to watch that?

It's a nice idea, but I just couldn't see it working.

That's a stretch. The WJC actually has credibility as a definitive world championship within its age boundaries. The amount of emotion that surrounds it, both positive and negative, is testament to that. Also, it's a proving ground for the best young players in the world in a peer-to-peer context.

In other words, the tournament itself actually means something in the broader context of international competition and development. The WC does not -- it is, literally, a fundraiser for the programs involved. If you want to think of me as an arrogant insulated American for pointing that out, fine. Perhaps it's emotionally easier for you to be critical of me than to be critical of the WC.

I'm not so sure. I think the WJC is viewed in Europe in pretty much the same light as we view the WC. When the Juniors are held in Europe, they often play to half-empty 4000 seat stadiums. Even in Buffalo this year, the majority of those in attendance drove down from Canada. I'm sure the IIHF would hold the tournament in Canada every year if they could, because for reasons I've never really understood, Canadians are fanatical about it. The rest of the world...not so much.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

That's a stretch. The WJC actually has credibility as a definitive world championship within its age boundaries. The amount of emotion that surrounds it, both positive and negative, is testament to that. Also, it's a proving ground for the best young players in the world in a peer-to-peer context.

.

Not really. Nobody but Canada and occasionally the US really cares about the WJC. It's like how North Americans don't give a crap about World Championships.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Here's an idea: Reform the World Championships. They are currently scheduled around European league schedules, which end earlier than the NHL. That's why most of the best players in the world aren't competing in the WCs from the beginning (instead playing in the NHL playoffs).

Why not alternate, so that the WCs are based on the Euro schedule in odd numbered years and the NHL schedule on even numbered years? Could this work?

Ideally, the NHL and Euro leagues would coordinate their schedules for the good of the game (and make no doubt about it, true best-on-best international tournaments definitely grow the game). But we all know that won't happen.

 

[Jussi]

Here's an idea: Reform the World Championships. They are currently scheduled around European league schedules, which end earlier than the NHL. That's why most of the best players in the world aren't competing in the WCs from the beginning (instead playing in the NHL playoffs).

Why not alternate, so that the WCs are based on the Euro schedule in odd numbered years and the NHL schedule on even numbered years? Could this work?

Ideally, the NHL and Euro leagues would coordinate their schedules for the good of the game (and make no doubt about it, true best-on-best international tournaments definitely grow the game). But we all know that won't happen.

You mean wait until the NHL season is over and hold the Worlds in mid June? Which would be in the middle of the European players off-season and holidays. Quality hockey I'm sure, not to mention the little interest in an international hockey tournament in the middle of summer.

 

[New User Name]

Perhaps it's time to come up with a new business model, then. Depending on this one-off event to fund your entire federation is not a very secure way to keep it afloat.

Anyway, for the third time... I don't have any problem with it being a fundraising event or whathaveyou. But it's not a legitimate world championship. It's obsolete and silly, not unlike the World Cup concept.

It's ironic hearing an American saying someone should come up with a new business model.

Maybe Bettman and the NHL can help European hockey to the tune of 8 million dollars a year like they do with USA hockey.

I'm all for developmental fees paid to the various junior organisations but USA hockey gets far more than anyone else (including Canada) and far more than they deserve.

But we know Bettmans agenda on this one, don't we?

 

[New User Name]

Here's an idea: Reform the World Championships. They are currently scheduled around European league schedules, which end earlier than the NHL. That's why most of the best players in the world aren't competing in the WCs from the beginning (instead playing in the NHL playoffs).

Why not alternate, so that the WCs are based on the Euro schedule in odd numbered years and the NHL schedule on even numbered years? Could this work?

Ideally, the NHL and Euro leagues would coordinate their schedules for the good of the game (and make no doubt about it, true best-on-best international tournaments definitely grow the game). But we all know that won't happen.

While we're at it, have the NHL amend their schedule so that all eligible junior players can play in the World Juniors.

Seeing that it usually affects the Canadian and European teams but not the US team.......we all know that won't happen.