Brampton in trouble

[JungleJON]

Team may leave if no new deal struck. Sounds familiar.


http://www.bramptonguardian.com/new...ing-beast-hockey-club-turns-to-city-for-help/

Click to read more...

 

[mfrerkes]

Perhaps there is a smaller town about 30 miles away with an old, decrepit arena that the Beast could purchase for $1 and then plow $6,000,000 into renovations. Also, if that nearby city allows them to open up a casino/OTB facility, that would practically guarantee success.

But first, the Beast must string along negotiations with the city of Brampton for weeks and weeks...pretending that they're close to a deal, so fans can have their hopes suddenly dashed.

 

[Neill99]

Newmarket ONT

Move them to Newmarket Ont and call them the Saint's.

 

[Neill99]

Cornwall Ont

Maybe Cornwall???

 

[Mightygoose]

Sadly not too surprising.

I've always wanted to see MLSE buy them and have the 2 levels of their farm teams under one umbrella.

At 1.5 Million loss per season, it's chump change for them!

 

[JackalsKnuckles]

This was Brampton's last shot at having a team I would say. The demographics of the area will not support hockey. Cricket or soccer maybe, but not hockey.

Brampton drew horribly when the Battalion were there and even had winning teams.

I also doubt that developmental hockey will work in Canada, although Newmarket and Cornwall both have buildings big enough to fit a ECHL team.

Even the fans that Brampton does have are on the Facebook page complaining about all the roster turnover, which is unfortunately what you get with the ECHL.

Sounds pretty clear in the article that the city of Brampton has no plans to purchase a sports complex and subsidize a team.

The Mississauga Steelheads are 7 km down the road on the same street and also drawing poorly with the OHL.

 

[nickp91]

Team president and general manager Cary Kaplan urged the City to open talks to purchase the Powerade Centre from owners Realstar and cover the team’s projected losses of up to a maximum of $1.5 million for the upcoming season (2016-17)

 

[Duke Guy]

The Beast won/ lost record since they arrived of 68 wins and 108 losses doesn't help. Maybe if they had a winning record more fans will come to the games.

 

[mfrerkes]

Team president and general manager Cary Kaplan urged the City to open talks to purchase the Powerade Centre from owners Realstar and cover the team’s projected losses of up to a maximum of $1.5 million for the upcoming season (2016-17)

I'll never understand why these owners believe they're entitled to a free ride from taxpayers. Don't get me wrong. I love hockey, but the idea that it's on the same level as schools, streets, sanitation, and fire protection is just wrong. Cities generally don't have enough money to underwrite losses for a minor league sports team. Imploring them to do exactly that makes the public even more cynical towards the notion of responsible government.

Professional hockey is a business. If it can't sustain itself in a given market, then the owner has several options: 1) Continue operating at a loss but seek private investors, 2) Sell the franchise to a different owner, 3) Relocate the franchise to a more profitable market, or 4) Fold the franchise.

How many more hockey teams need to fail in Brampton before people realize it just doesn't work there? Making the city pay for something that has a history of failure is not fair to the taxpayers of Brampton...or any other city where hockey isn't selling enough tickets.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

They lasted longer than I thought.

Its things like this that people need to stop thinking of a 30-30-30. There's not even a lot of stable AA franchises as it is now.

 

[210]

They lasted longer than I thought.

Its things like this that people need to stop thinking of a 30-30-30. There's not even a lot of stable AA franchises as it is now.

30-30-30 is 100% going to happen. You can bet every penny you have on it.

 

[GindyDraws]

This was Brampton's last shot at having a team I would say. The demographics of the area will not support hockey. Cricket or soccer maybe, but not hockey.

Brampton drew horribly when the Battalion were there and even had winning teams.

I also doubt that developmental hockey will work in Canada, although Newmarket and Cornwall both have buildings big enough to fit a ECHL team.

Even the fans that Brampton does have are on the Facebook page complaining about all the roster turnover, which is unfortunately what you get with the ECHL.

Sounds pretty clear in the article that the city of Brampton has no plans to purchase a sports complex and subsidize a team.

The Mississauga Steelheads are 7 km down the road on the same street and also drawing poorly with the OHL.

When I was ultra critical of the Beast in the CHL, one of my issues was the fact that Brampton had an OHL club for 15 years and barely supported them. The location of the arena is one thing, but even when the Battalion were winning, they had a hard time drawing. I think it's due to the demographics in the area, possibly, considering a fair portion of Brampton's population is Asian.

Frankly, I just think that GTA hockey on any level besides the AHL might be a thing of the past in a decade or so.

 

[JackalsKnuckles]

30-30-30 is 100% going to happen. You can bet every penny you have on it.

The only way this will happen is if the NHL owns a large number of the teams.

With the western move the ECHL essentially lost some of its best drawing markets in Ontario and Bako, and replaced them with weaker markets such as Adirondack.

Manchester may survive, but certainly can't be as financially strong as when they were in the AHL. Maybe Norfolk can be OK since fans there have no other alternative for hockey.

If there is a large number of teams owned by the NHL I think fans in those cities will see through the whole scheme and realize that their team is not there to win at all, but is just a place to stash prospects and "develop talent".

There are at least 5 existing markets on shaky ground as in Kalamazoo, Wheeling, Elmira, Brampton, and Evansville. Adirondack is not looking good either.

They will need to come up with at least another 7 markets to place teams to get to the 30.

This is not baseball. 30-30-30 may happen, but this will not benefit the fans in any way, makes no financial sense, and relies on a bottom-down approach being forced on markets.

If they do get to 30 they will have to keep replacing 3-4 teams each year as if there were that many viable AA level markets they would already have teams, so you are resorting to areas with marginal support and ultimately a lot of turnover.

 

[210]

The ECHL wants 30-30-30, and they will make it happen.

They're a lot more particular about who owns franchises now. Previously all you needed to get a team was a check to buy the team and an "I think I can do it"-type business plan. Slowly these older "hand to mouth" owners are going to get weeded out and replaced with solid ownership groups in legitimately viable markets.

Trust me, it might take a few years, but it is going to happen.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

The only way this will happen is if the NHL owns a large number of the teams.

With the western move the ECHL essentially lost some of its best drawing markets in Ontario and Bako, and replaced them with weaker markets such as Adirondack.

Manchester may survive, but certainly can't be as financially strong as when they were in the AHL. Maybe Norfolk can be OK since fans there have no other alternative for hockey.

If there is a large number of teams owned by the NHL I think fans in those cities will see through the whole scheme and realize that their team is not there to win at all, but is just a place to stash prospects and "develop talent".

There are at least 5 existing markets on shaky ground as in Kalamazoo, Wheeling, Elmira, Brampton, and Evansville. Adirondack is not looking good either.

They will need to come up with at least another 7 markets to place teams to get to the 30.

This is not baseball. 30-30-30 may happen, but this will not benefit the fans in any way, makes no financial sense, and relies on a bottom-down approach being forced on markets.

If they do get to 30 they will have to keep replacing 3-4 teams each year as if there were that many viable AA level markets they would already have teams, so you are resorting to areas with marginal support and ultimately a lot of turnover.

Isn't Reading kind of teetering on shaky ground? I know they aren't as strong as they used to be. I believe a couple summers back they had to have the county step up and buy a portion of the team because apparently there was interest to move it to Baltimore?

 

[Jackets Woodchuck]

The only way this will happen is if the NHL owns a large number of the teams.

With the western move the ECHL essentially lost some of its best drawing markets in Ontario and Bako, and replaced them with weaker markets such as Adirondack.

Manchester may survive, but certainly can't be as financially strong as when they were in the AHL. Maybe Norfolk can be OK since fans there have no other alternative for hockey.

If there is a large number of teams owned by the NHL I think fans in those cities will see through the whole scheme and realize that their team is not there to win at all, but is just a place to stash prospects and "develop talent".

There are at least 5 existing markets on shaky ground as in Kalamazoo, Wheeling, Elmira, Brampton, and Evansville. Adirondack is not looking good either.

They will need to come up with at least another 7 markets to place teams to get to the 30.

This is not baseball. 30-30-30 may happen, but this will not benefit the fans in any way, makes no financial sense, and relies on a bottom-down approach being forced on markets.

If they do get to 30 they will have to keep replacing 3-4 teams each year as if there were that many viable AA level markets they would already have teams, so you are resorting to areas with marginal support and ultimately a lot of turnover.

You put the words "develop talent" in quotation marks. Do you think there's no such thing as development in hockey (the only players worthy of the NHL are those who can skate right off an OHL rink and make an NHL roster) or that there's no actual development in the ECHL because all the legitimate NHLers make their North American pro debut in the NHL or AHL?

 

[Jackets Woodchuck]

When I was ultra critical of the Beast in the CHL, one of my issues was the fact that Brampton had an OHL club for 15 years and barely supported them. The location of the arena is one thing, but even when the Battalion were winning, they had a hard time drawing. I think it's due to the demographics in the area, possibly, considering a fair portion of Brampton's population is Asian.

Frankly, I just think that GTA hockey on any level besides the AHL might be a thing of the past in a decade or so.

You see the GTA losing the OHL entirely in a decade?

 

[JackalsKnuckles]

You put the words "develop talent" in quotation marks. Do you think there's no such thing as development in hockey (the only players worthy of the NHL are those who can skate right off an OHL rink and make an NHL roster) or that there's no actual development in the ECHL because all the legitimate NHLers make their North American pro debut in the NHL or AHL?

Sure there is some talent developed in the ECHL. Goaltenders in particular may end up in the NHL after a stint in the ECHL. Is it fun to see a guy who played 6 or 7 games for your team 3 years ago make the NHL? Sure, but why spend money to watch development when winning is not the goal. Might as well show up at the morning skate and watch them do drills for free.

The issue is that the ECHL is only focused on development and not on winning. Tell an OHL GM that he has to focus on developing players over winning. Every other league in hockey, from Tier 3 juniors to the CHL to college hockey has teams in place to win games. If the coaches don't win, eventually they are fired. The ECHL clearly states that it is in place to develop players as its sole intended purpose. The AHL is also the same to a lesser extent. This can work in an area where fans have no other alternative for watching live hockey, but if there is another team within driving distance I think a lot of folks will choose a lower level of hockey to watch where winning is the goal.

We've all seen AHL or NHL rostered guys forced to get ice time by the parent club in the name of development when it is clear that either they don't want to be there, or were a mistake draft pick who is taking up a more talented player's spot.

If the league were more about winning and entertainment then their promotional materials and marketing would focus more on what is happening today and how great the games are rather than keeping a scorecard of the alumni who are in the NHL.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

The only way this will happen is if the NHL owns a large number of the teams.

With the western move the ECHL essentially lost some of its best drawing markets in Ontario and Bako, and replaced them with weaker markets such as Adirondack.

Manchester may survive, but certainly can't be as financially strong as when they were in the AHL. Maybe Norfolk can be OK since fans there have no other alternative for hockey.

If there is a large number of teams owned by the NHL I think fans in those cities will see through the whole scheme and realize that their team is not there to win at all, but is just a place to stash prospects and "develop talent".

There are at least 5 existing markets on shaky ground as in Kalamazoo, Wheeling, Elmira, Brampton, and Evansville. Adirondack is not looking good either.

They will need to come up with at least another 7 markets to place teams to get to the 30.

This is not baseball. 30-30-30 may happen, but this will not benefit the fans in any way, makes no financial sense, and relies on a bottom-down approach being forced on markets.

If they do get to 30 they will have to keep replacing 3-4 teams each year as if there were that many viable AA level markets they would already have teams, so you are resorting to areas with marginal support and ultimately a lot of turnover.

I agree with your post entirely. I think the 30-30-30 model over any considerable time frame is a pipe dream unless NHL teams go into direct ownership or heavy subsidization of ECHL franchises.


The ECHL has huge issues, many of which, are linked to its "overaffiliated", if you will, model.

It's not just playing players who are bad-especially goalies-over better players, it's the overall style of hockey being played. The ECHL is a relatively low minor league and most of the fans aren't sophisticated hockey fans. As fighting and hitting become more rare by the season, these fans-along with sophisticated ones who enjoy the physical elements of the game-are becoming bored with the product. People would much rather see some heavy duty fighting than watch David Desharnais, Scott Darling, Anthony Bittetto, Logan Shaw and Byron Froese-all former Cyclones who are now in the NHL. Most fans at a Cincinnati game couldn't even name 8 players on the team if you put a gun to their heads. I doubt most could name more than one Cyclones alumnus currently playing in the NHL. For most in attendance at any given game, it's about action, goals and fighting to them, not "development" or even winning.

The Cincinnati management team has done a great job marketing the team. It appears to be healthy to me and I'm not worried about it leaving. But, there are so many teams in the league whose real attendance is probably in the 50-66% of what is announced and that is not good.

My list of health of ECHL franchises:

Good to Excellent:

Toledo, Colorado, Missouri, Fort Wayne, Cincinnati (5)

Mediocre Health:

Florida, Indy, Orlando, Quad Cities, Atlanta, Alaska, Idaho, Wheeling , Utah (9)

Poor Health:

Brampton, Evansville, South Carolina, Greenville, Reading, Elmira, Kalamazoo (7)

No opinion:

Adirondack, Norfolk, Manchester, Tulsa, Wichita, Rapid City, Allen(7)

By my measure, over half of the teams are not in real good shape and could be listed as doubtful to be in the ECHL anywhere from 1 to, say, 10 years down the line.

I think the ECHL is 100% committed to its current business model (30/30/30, heavy NHL/AHL influence) and until the structure starts to crumble, I wouldn't expect any alteration in their basic strategy.

The 30/30/30 cannot be achieved long term without NHL subsidy. I can see the NHL going either way on ECHL subsidization.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

You guys are way overvaluing the ECHL because idiots like McKenna and Babik have brainwashed you. Sure....there's talent but not significant enough though either. That is the overall point. The only position where a guy starting in the E has hopes for a real shot is goalie. Its a fickle position to begin with. You see NHL backups the next year in the AHL and vice versa. I just don't think the demand is there. There's not even 30 solid franchises now. Heck believe it or not if you look at the AHL and ECHL outside of like 5-10 teams most aren't profitable. But when an NHL team owns an ahl team for many that won't matter. I don't think the NHL cares about the ECHL the way the ECHL wants them to. You have a purpose but its not as big as you think. Don't think teams are gunna be lining up to own an ECHL team. The only time its happened is Trenton.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

You put the words "develop talent" in quotation marks. Do you think there's no such thing as development in hockey (the only players worthy of the NHL are those who can skate right off an OHL rink and make an NHL roster) or that there's no actual development in the ECHL because all the legitimate NHLers make their North American pro debut in the NHL or AHL?

Obviously there's some just not a lot. Keywords.

In baseball almost nobody goes right to the MLB. In the NHL? Guys like Ovechkin don't spend a day trolling the minor league scene. That's the difference.

 

[GindyDraws]

You guys are way overvaluing the ECHL because idiots like McKenna and Babik have brainwashed you. Sure....there's talent but not significant enough though either. That is the overall point. The only position where a guy starting in the E has hopes for a real shot is goalie. Its a fickle position to begin with. You see NHL backups the next year in the AHL and vice versa. I just don't think the demand is there. There's not even 30 solid franchises now. Heck believe it or not if you look at the AHL and ECHL outside of like 5-10 teams most aren't profitable. But when an NHL team owns an ahl team for many that won't matter. I don't think the NHL cares about the ECHL the way the ECHL wants them to. You have a purpose but its not as big as you think. Don't think teams are gunna be lining up to own an ECHL team. The only time its happened is Trenton.

I really don't see how we're all "brainwashed". Yeah, I like the ECHL, but I don't drink the Kool-Aid, because I know that the league is always gonna be on shaky grounds. As Cyclones Rock pointed out, at best, half of the league is in some stable condition, and even then, I don't see all of those teams being around 10 years from now or even 5 years from now. Hell, in 2026, if the ECHL's still around, there's a better chance of it being a 16 team league as opposed to a 30-32 team league, even if the NHL decided to have en edict about even standing with their minor league system.

The ECHL will always want to be regarded as no higher than what it truly is; a depositing point for players whose best isn't good enough to be on an NHL practice squad. And, with the AHL, do any NHL teams, at any time, have too many projects on their hands that they wished they had a second alternative to develop them? This isn't MILB to the MLB, this is semi-pro league wanting to do everything to impress the big boys.

However, and we have this argument all the time, and it makes me question why you bother sometimes, is the fact that, in a lot of our situations, whenever we argue about ECHL-level hockey versus no level of hockey at all in our markets, you always seem to argue that no hockey is better. I mean, I'd love for Indianapolis to have an AHL team, but that'll happen when Elvis comes back on a spaceship to collect what was put in the safe deposit box that's buried underneath a new business skyscraper downtown. So, I gotta work with the hand that I'm dealt. I don't see any Fuel player ever making the NHL, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna be all "Oh, screw them! They're the ECHL".

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

I really don't see how we're all "brainwashed". Yeah, I like the ECHL, but I don't drink the Kool-Aid, because I know that the league is always gonna be on shaky grounds. As Cyclones Rock pointed out, at best, half of the league is in some stable condition, and even then, I don't see all of those teams being around 10 years from now or even 5 years from now. Hell, in 2026, if the ECHL's still around, there's a better chance of it being a 16 team league as opposed to a 30-32 team league, even if the NHL decided to have en edict about even standing with their minor league system.

The ECHL will always want to be regarded as no higher than what it truly is; a depositing point for players whose best isn't good enough to be on an NHL practice squad. And, with the AHL, do any NHL teams, at any time, have too many projects on their hands that they wished they had a second alternative to develop them? This isn't MILB to the MLB, this is semi-pro league wanting to do everything to impress the big boys.

However, and we have this argument all the time, and it makes me question why you bother sometimes, is the fact that, in a lot of our situations, whenever we argue about ECHL-level hockey versus no level of hockey at all in our markets, you always seem to argue that no hockey is better. I mean, I'd love for Indianapolis to have an AHL team, but that'll happen when Elvis comes back on a spaceship to collect what was put in the safe deposit box that's buried underneath a new business skyscraper downtown. So, I gotta work with the hand that I'm dealt. I don't see any Fuel player ever making the NHL, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna be all "Oh, screw them! They're the ECHL".

You're top point is right on. That's what I'm trying to say. They have 28 now...quite a few shaky teams hanging by a thread.

I'm not an NHL fan at all but I just don't like the false advertisement. There's junior hockey better than Tue ECHL. I'd rather see the better junior hockey in theory. I wouldn't MIMD this level but I don't enjoy how you're supposed to tell a AA team develop me all these guys...oh by the way they really don't fit in our long term plans for 99.9% of the cases but do it anyway. In the end its all monetary. Makes it easier to field a roster. Get guys sent to you on a two way AHL/ECHL contract.

 

[Avsrule2022]

You're top point is right on. That's what I'm trying to say. They have 28 now...quite a few shaky teams hanging by a thread.

I'm not an NHL fan at all but I just don't like the false advertisement. There's junior hockey better than Tue ECHL. I'd rather see the better junior hockey in theory. I wouldn't MIMD this level but I don't enjoy how you're supposed to tell a AA team develop me all these guys...oh by the way they really don't fit in our long term plans for 99.9% of the cases but do it anyway. In the end its all monetary. Makes it easier to field a roster. Get guys sent to you on a two way AHL/ECHL contract.

So should the ECHL just cut all ties with the NHL and AHL? Should they say "No we don't develop players, this is just a league for guys who won't ever make the NHL? That would be a bad business decision. Lining up with the NHL? Good business decision. Maybe there will never be a stable 30 teams, but I believe the league will survive over any other than the NHL or AHL. Especially if they line themselves up with the NHL. I'll take a 16 team league as long as theres a team in my town!

 

[JackalsKnuckles]

I agree with your post entirely. I think the 30-30-30 model over any considerable time frame is a pipe dream unless NHL teams go into direct ownership or heavy subsidization of ECHL franchises.


The ECHL has huge issues, many of which, are linked to its "overaffiliated", if you will, model.

It's not just playing players who are bad-especially goalies-over better players, it's the overall style of hockey being played. The ECHL is a relatively low minor league and most of the fans aren't sophisticated hockey fans. As fighting and hitting become more rare by the season, these fans-along with sophisticated ones who enjoy the physical elements of the game-are becoming bored with the product. People would much rather see some heavy duty fighting than watch David Desharnais, Scott Darling, Anthony Bittetto, Logan Shaw and Byron Froese-all former Cyclones who are now in the NHL. Most fans at a Cincinnati game couldn't even name 8 players on the team if you put a gun to their heads. I doubt most could name more than one Cyclones alumnus currently playing in the NHL. For most in attendance at any given game, it's about action, goals and fighting to them, not "development" or even winning.

The Cincinnati management team has done a great job marketing the team. It appears to be healthy to me and I'm not worried about it leaving. But, there are so many teams in the league whose real attendance is probably in the 50-66% of what is announced and that is not good.

My list of health of ECHL franchises:

Good to Excellent:

Toledo, Colorado, Missouri, Fort Wayne, Cincinnati (5)

Mediocre Health:

Florida, Indy, Orlando, Quad Cities, Atlanta, Alaska, Idaho, Wheeling , Utah (9)

Poor Health:

Brampton, Evansville, South Carolina, Greenville, Reading, Elmira, Kalamazoo (7)

No opinion:

Adirondack, Norfolk, Manchester, Tulsa, Wichita, Rapid City, Allen(7)

By my measure, over half of the teams are not in real good shape and could be listed as doubtful to be in the ECHL anywhere from 1 to, say, 10 years down the line.

I think the ECHL is 100% committed to its current business model (30/30/30, heavy NHL/AHL influence) and until the structure starts to crumble, I wouldn't expect any alteration in their basic strategy.

The 30/30/30 cannot be achieved long term without NHL subsidy. I can see the NHL going either way on ECHL subsidization.

You hit the nail on the head as far as being bored with the product and the lack of physicality in the current ECHL game. I don't think there needs to be a fight every game for the average fan who wants to attend 4 or 5 times a year to have a good time, but when it is obvious that there is no hostility between the teams, there are no rivalries since the rosters are different nearly every time 2 teams play, and there is no emotion in the games, then fans are kind of wondering where all the excitement is.

I will say the ECHL marketing scheme is ingenious in putting so much emphasis on the NHL affiliation as it can get the Joe Schmo who watches the NHL on TV on the weekends to buy a ticket and get into the door. Where they fail deliver is that once that fan is in the door they don't get a very exciting product to watch. The longtime fans have seen the decline in entertainment value if they have been around. I missed less than a dozen games total over 8 years with the Jackals until last season. Finally I said enough is enough after the product getting more boring each season.

I also kinda ruined it for myself as I started travelling to different arenas about 6 or 7 years ago and have seen almost every pro, semi pro, college and junior league in the Eastern half of the US and Canada. It was at that point that I realized the ECHL product was so lacking. Junior A or Junior B in Ontario or Quebec offers a great product, strong rivalries and lots of emotion. So does the USHL, NAHL, and even leagues most fans ignore such as the NA3HL. Heck- there is no fighting in pro hockey now anyway so despite the cages college hockey is actually more physical these days than many leagues. Had I not seen the other options in person I would probably still be OK with what the ECHL is but being exposed to all of the other options and experiencing them first hand it has made me realize the ECHL is near the bottom of the list when it comes to entertainment value.

Why am I expressing these thoughts on this forum instead of staying away? Because I am in an ECHL market and am just trying to spread the word that there are a ton of more entertaining leagues out there for the fans, and they don't necessarily have to be higher level leagues. You'd be surprised how fun a Junior team can be (even at a low level) and it should not be seen as a step down in entertainment, which is why most fans attend games in the first place.