Speculation: Bouwmeester?

[Heaton]

Jbow is not good defensively and neither is Kronwall. If you want to argue he'd be BETTER defensively with the Wings I'll give you that. I'd even concede he might be a slight upgrade defensively on Kronwall playing on the Wings roster (that would be close IMO though)

Someone who is good defensively doesn't need Selke caliber forwards to be a + player.

Bouwmeester is consistently in the - and routinely is among the league leaders in goals against while on the ice.

He plays a lot and he's played on Calgary for a long time now, a non-playoff team with bad players will always make those around them worse.

 

[Ozy_Flame]

Roger Millions ‏@RogMillions 3 min
#Flames Jay Bouwmeester admits he and team have talked about possibility of a trade. Hearing as many as 6 teams interested in him.

Re-tweeted by Kuklas korner. Not sure how reliable.

Roger Millions is our Sportsnet man on the ground at the 'Dome. If he says this, it's definitely true. Roger even visits CalgaryPuck regularly and is well known to be one of the first guys to talk to Flames players as things happen.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

LA got Scuderi how?

Are you comparing Scuderi to a fourth line grinder?

Dude signed a 4 year, $3,5M contract.

How many guys like that do you get on waivers? How many fourth liners earn those kinds of deals?

 

[Detroit Sports*]

i hope he goes to Pittsburgh lol i dont want him

 

[FlashyG]

He plays a lot and he's played on Calgary for a long time now, a non-playoff team with bad players will always make those around them worse.

Maybe its a coincidence, maybe not, but the Flames were a playoff team for 5 years straight before Bouwmeester got there. They haven't made them since.

In his first year there I believe he was also the only regular defenceman who finished with a -.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Are you comparing Scuderi to a fourth line grinder?

Dude signed a 4 year, $3,5M contract.

How many guys like that do you get on waivers? How many fourth liners earn those kinds of deals?

no not at all, what I am saying is he is a bottom pairing stay at home type dman, the exact type of player teams find through free agency and/or the waiver wire, a type of player/role that is much easier to find/address as oppossed to a top pairing 30 minute a night dman

that is all

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Jbow is not good defensively and neither is Kronwall. If you want to argue he'd be BETTER defensively with the Wings I'll give you that. I'd even concede he might be a slight upgrade defensively on Kronwall playing on the Wings roster (that would be close IMO though)

Someone who is good defensively doesn't need Selke caliber forwards to be a + player.

Bouwmeester is consistently in the - and routinely is among the league leaders in goals against while on the ice.

i believe thats what plus/minus means but i wonder how this works,

-kronwall is a minus 5 on a team that is plus 7
-bouwmeester is a minus 7 on a team that is minus 19

bouwmeester has played more minutes and more minutes per game than kronwall, against tougher opponets and yet is a plus 12 better then his team whereas kronwall who plays less minutes, lines up less often against the othe teams top forwards and yet is a minus 12 worse then his team

plus/minus is only useful in this context

 

[Vladdy84]

i believe thats what plus/minus means but i wonder how this works,

-kronwall is a minus 5 on a team that is plus 7
-bouwmeester is a minus 7 on a team that is minus 19

bouwmeester has played more minutes and more minutes per game than kronwall, against tougher opponets and yet is a plus 12 better then his team whereas kronwall who plays less minutes, lines up less often against the othe teams top forwards and yet is a minus 12 worse then his team

plus/minus is only useful in this context

Kronwall is a soft, mediocre defensively turnover machine. Jay Bo ain't much better.

 

[kuick]

When did we start using statistics alone to judge a player? I know many of us don't go out of our way to watch Calgary often (I picked up a discounted Game Center this year so I've been able to watch a handful of games when I'm not doing anything), but JBo is a pretty solid player. Comparing him to Kronwall defensively this season is an insult, but Kronner is definitely the superior offensive guy. Overall, it's pretty close.

+/- is only a useful stat in the right situation. This is not one of those times.

I also enjoy those who criticize Holland for never ever making moves or adding roster players that improve this team but still loathe the idea of adding a guy who would probably be an upgrade over anyone else we can currently ice and is still under 30. Obviously, it's dependent on the price we pay.

 

[DarkReign]

Neither are good defensively so their offensive production is really all you can compare them by.

What?! What planet...what galaxy is Kronwall better or even with JayBo at actual defense?

What?! Just...what?

Are we watching the same league? JayBo is a fr more proven #1 dman than Kronwall. I like/love Kronwall, seriously. He is signed the a great deal, took the much talked about hometown discount for real and he brings a wonderful element to the lineup on a nightly basis. I can't say it enough, I really really really like Kronwall's game, his leadership and his contract.

But JayBo is better and unfortunately, in some people's eyes, he is paid like it.

 

[BinCookin]

I think we have enough offense on our D-line. We could use a really solid, physical RH defenseman. $11 million tied up between Kronwall and J-bo would be rough.

Or it is exactly what should be expected:

Forwards (39mil)
1PPG = 6million x3 (Top line = 18mil)
0.5-0.75PPG = 4million x3 (2nd line = 12mil)
0.2-0.35PPG = 2million x 3 (3rd line = 6mil)
0.1-0.2PPG = 0.8-1million x3 (4th line = 3mil)

Defense (20mil)
Top 2 = 5-6 mil (Top 2 = 12 Mil)
3/4 = 2-3 mil (x2 = 6 mil)
5/6 = 1 mil (x2 = 2 mil)

Goalie (5 mil)

Total (39+20+5=65Mil)

These are your "ROUGH" salary cap numbers. If you want anyone with a higher salary, you have to cut salary from another position. This is my go to Salary system.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Kronwall is a soft, mediocre defensively turnover machine. Jay Bo ain't much better.

uh huh

 

[BinCookin]

i believe thats what plus/minus means but i wonder how this works,

-kronwall is a minus 5 on a team that is plus 7
-bouwmeester is a minus 7 on a team that is minus 19

bouwmeester has played more minutes and more minutes per game than kronwall, against tougher opponets and yet is a plus 12 better then his team whereas kronwall who plays less minutes, lines up less often against the othe teams top forwards and yet is a minus 12 worse then his team

plus/minus is only useful in this context

This is the perfect use of plus minus.

Comparison vs the Team you are on.

By this definition JBo is much better defensively than Kronwall.

I think this is the best way to read plus/minus stats. - IN CONTEXT.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

This is the perfect use of plus minus.

Comparison vs the Team you are on.

By this definition JBo is much better defensively than Kronwall.

I think this is the best way to read plus/minus stats. - IN CONTEXT.

absolutely

their is no point comparing a blackhawk(a team that is plus 39 and therefore NO player should be a minus) to a panther(a team that is -39 and therefore most likely no player is a plus player)

jaybo has been on the ice for 12 more goals for then against vs his team despite the fact he plays for a terrible team and is on the ice for that terrible team more often

kronwall on the other hand has been on the ice for 12 more goals against then for vs his team despite the fact he plays for a good team

jaybo is in fact a plus 24 better then kronwall(um thats HUGE) and this is the only way GM's and coachs actually judge player vs player in terms of plus/minus

 

[Crymson]

I'll say it again: Bouwmeester is worth neither assets nor his cap hit. But if thinking that the grass is greener makes you feel better, then have at thee. You'll be disappointed, either way, because there's no way that Bouwmeester is coming to the Red Wings.

Whatever Filppula ends up getting from Detroit, he'll be worth it according to Crymson. The Red Wings infallible and if you disagree you're not a true fan.

Man, you truly find me threatening somehow.

Agreed. That's like saying LeBron sucked at basketball when he played in Cleveland just because he didn't win it all there. You can be a good player on a crappy team.

And comparing LeBron James to Jay Bouwmeester is beyond stupid, no matter the context.

He plays a lot and he's played on Calgary for a long time now, a non-playoff team with bad players will always make those around them worse.

The Panthers teams on which he played were roughly equal in capacity to the Flames teams on which he has played. His numbers have nevertheless declined substantially from one to the next. He was a premiere defenseman with the Panthers, but he has not been one with the Flames. He is not what he once was, as the Flames have found out to their chagrin over the past three seasons.

 

[SoupNazi]

their is no point comparing a blackhawk(a team that is plus 39 and therefore NO player should be a minus) to a panther(a team that is -39 and therefore most likely no player is a plus player)

And yet, Blackhawks have minus players and Panthers have plus players.

 

[FlashyG]

This is the perfect use of plus minus.

Comparison vs the Team you are on.

By this definition JBo is much better defensively than Kronwall.

I think this is the best way to read plus/minus stats. - IN CONTEXT.

Its actually a very misleading way to use +/-.

you can only really use it to compare players on the same team and even then its not terribly accurate.

A more accurate way to compare players (defensively) on opposite teams is straight goals against vs team goals against.

Kronwall has been on the ice for 25 goals against of Detroits total 83 or 30%
Bouwmeester has been on the ice for 36 goals against of Calgary's total 108 or 33%

Both are bad defensive players, Bouwmeester might be slightly better defensively, but he isn't enough better that he'd take the #1 minutes from Kronwall and he doesnt' warrant his cap hit at all.

He is the exact opposite of the kind of Defenceman the Wings need right now.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Wings need to avoid this guy like the plague. Wings have enough bums who can't play defense.

27 minutes of mediocre defense isn't gonna cut it. We have Kronwall in that role already.

 

[Hendricks433]

Or it is exactly what should be expected:

Forwards (39mil)
1PPG = 6million x3 (Top line = 18mil)
0.5-0.75PPG = 4million x3 (2nd line = 12mil)
0.2-0.35PPG = 2million x 3 (3rd line = 6mil)
0.1-0.2PPG = 0.8-1million x3 (4th line = 3mil)

Defense (20mil)
Top 2 = 5-6 mil (Top 2 = 12 Mil)
3/4 = 2-3 mil (x2 = 6 mil)
5/6 = 1 mil (x2 = 2 mil)

Goalie (5 mil)

Total (39+20+5=65Mil)

These are your "ROUGH" salary cap numbers. If you want anyone with a higher salary, you have to cut salary from another position. This is my go to Salary system.

Sorry, I meant for those specific 2 players. I dont think J-bo and Kronner are a great combo for a top line for what they get paid.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Its actually a very misleading way to use +/-.

you can only really use it to compare players on the same team and even then its not terribly accurate.

A more accurate way to compare players (defensively) on opposite teams is straight goals against vs team goals against.

Kronwall has been on the ice for 25 goals against of Detroits total 83 or 30%
Bouwmeester has been on the ice for 36 goals against of Calgary's total 108 or 33%

Both are bad defensive players, Bouwmeester might be slightly better defensively, but he isn't enough better that he'd take the #1 minutes from Kronwall and he doesnt' warrant his cap hit at all.

He is the exact opposite of the kind of Defenceman the Wings need right now.

as a former hockey coach yes you're right as well but we do tend to look at a players plus/minus vs his teams plus/minus more closely because typically guys who play alot on teams which are bad(bad teams usually give up more goals hence why they're bad) are more likely to be on the ice for more goals against, common sense tells you that.

however if a player plays for a good team that scores more then it gives up and yet that said player is on the ice for more goals against then goals for then that to us was always an strong indicator of a player who wasnt very good in his own zone

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

And yet, Blackhawks have minus players and Panthers have plus players.

bolland is the only player of note who is a minus player for the hawks

mathias is the only player of note who is a plus player for the panthers

the rule stands

 

[SoupNazi]

bolland is the only player of note who is a minus player for the hawks

mathias is the only player of note who is a plus player for the panthers

the rule stands

But you'd be amazed how speaking in generalities isn't a good idea.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

But you'd be amazed how speaking in generalities isn't a good idea.

hahaha fair enough, the rule though is ALMOST always universally correct(i suppose not always) and its why no coach, no GM, and no scout has ever compared two players on two vastly different teams in terms of overall plus/minus but rather looked at each players plus/minus in regards to his teams overall plus/minus as a more definitive source for comparission

 

[TatarTangle]

You guys know that movie How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days? They have been secretly shooting a movie within the DRW organization called How to Lose an Entire Fan Base in 10 Days.

I hope everyone is ready to see one of Sproul or Ouellet and Tatar or Nyquist and a 1st round draft pick leave town.

What happens on the 10th day? We all buy Chicago Blackhawk jerseys

 

[Vladdy84]

You guys know that movie How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days? They have been secretly shooting a movie within the DRW organization called How to Lose an Entire Fan Base in 10 Days.

I hope everyone is ready to see one of Sproul or Ouellet and Tatar or Nyquist and a 1st round draft pick leave town.

What happens on the 10th day? We all buy Chicago Blackhawk jerseys

Yeah right. WE LIKE OUR TEAM. HELM IS COMING BACK SOMEDAY!