Bouchard vs Dobson

[tooji]

I think Dobson has a better chance of being a true all round 1-D

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Because he is a freak athletic talent. Do you see how he plays? I mean, it's pretty obvious what his deal is...you see how he joins rushes and hangs around the attack zone?

That sounds a lot more like Quinn Hughes to me than Evan Bouchard.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Well, only in the sense that the world is binary really...they're both offensive defenseman, yes. But they don't conduct their business in the same way (this is responding to Hughes/Bouchard, by the way). They just don't really have that much in common when you're talking about the nuances of it - not even minor nuances either, I mean larger/broader nuances. They don't carry the puck the same way, they don't play in the attack zone the same way, they don't see the game the same way, they don't defend rush chances against the same way, they almost used to play in-zone defense against sustained attacks similarly, but Hughes looks like he's already grown out of that by the time the season was over, so I'm going to say that they don't do that the same way either...

They aren't powered by the same fuel really. Hughes can do things because he calculates the risk vs reward of it, so even though some of it appears unconventional (and it is, especially early on...yoi...) when you slow it down and watch it again, you end going "well, I'll be damned...that was actually kinda...right..." ...Bouchard doesn't have that trait in my opinion. I don't know how else to say this - and it's late and I've been going over game tape for most of the last 15 hours, so my brain is deep fried haha - but Bouchard can only see what's in front of him and he forgot everything that he just skated by...Hughes cataloged it on the way by and, without looking, knows where it's at now...

 

[Micklebot]

Bouchard's skating is not the issue, he is just not smart...

Full disclosure here; I have not watched enough of Bouchard to have my own opinion on his hockey sense, but...

It's odd for me to see you so adamant about his lack of hockey sense while at the same time reading about him being voted 3rd smartest hockey player in the western conference in the OHL coaches poll. I'm of course assuming that the poll isn't asking about academics and instead is looking for opinions on the players hockey sense.

This isn't a criticism of your opinion, you've shown in the past to back your opinions up, I'm just trying to understand what those voting coaches are seeing that you aren't, or that you're seeing that they aren't. I guess it's possible the coaches are really focused on offensive instincts, idk...

 

[Michael Farkas]

That's an excellent point. And I can't speak for them, I have no idea what they're factoring into that...I doubt they're reading his chemistry tests though...

So, I coach at a level where I'm asked to vote on things of this nature in some respects. And yeah...there's video...yeah I'm obviously at the games...yeah I'm talking to other coaches...I talk to my players...at the end of the day, I'm not studying for this type of poll, these types of awards...I want to get as close as I can to something reasonable and then I want to turn it in...

So, I might have a little voter fatigue (because the OHL poll isn't short) because I've already voted for some of the same guys for other things and I know that every time I play London I get my lunch fed to me by this kid who never comes off the ice...so he must be doing something...I don't know the rationale, I don't get how anyone can watch that player and think he plays the game intelligently. Maybe with the puck on his stick and some of the passes he makes, you see some quick puck movement and assume he's intelligent because of that (the guy with the fastest draw in the West is Morgan Frost, he won first place in the smartest competition, so maybe it's that)...

In 2014, Connor McDavid didn't finish top 3...in the conference...for smartest player. He was already put down for (and won) best skater, best playmker, best stickhandler. There's no doubt McDavid is a hockey genius...

But you're right, it's a good question...it's not like one or two coaches said it...a bunch did and I'm just some idiot...so I'd have no problem with someone taking exception. That said, he's not a smart player in my eyes...I think he'll have success early on in his pro career - I'm not sure how long it will last maybe 2 or 3 years...maybe even 5 or 6...but I really don't think we're looking at a long-term, stud defenseman...I just don't think he has the brains or the adaptability to pull that off...like Phaneuf, I imagine that all of his best seasons will come before the age of 22 or 23...

 

[Petes2424]

Why do people think Bouchard will be an NHL defenceman when he can't even skate well enough to defend against junior players? Serious question.

I think when it's all said and done, Dobson is drafted ahead of him and although I dont want to put Bouchard down, as he's been a great junior player, I have concerns how much space he'll be able to create for himself against NHL players? The speed is becoming insane at the NHL level and it's one of the reasons why we're seeing more mobile and quick D becoming more successful earlier, while more traditional defenders arent progressing as much as they may have 7-10 years ago. By no means am I saying he's NOT going to live up to a top 10 selection but the upside of Dobson should be the difference.

As successful a season as Dobson has had, he still shows a lot of raw abilities, suggesting he's poised to become a better player... and teams will no doubt look at that when they're deciding between the two.

 

[Fvital92]

It's pretty funny that before the Memorial cup 75% of this board prefered Bouchard. Actually, before the under 18 ihff, he was the number 2 defenseman in the draft.

The short memory here is bizarre.

P.s: I prefer Dobson.

 

[Balthazar]

Dobson is the only dman in this draft (other than Dahlin) that has no real weakness. He's got size, skating, IQ, passing, shot. If everything stays the course he'll be a first pairing defenseman in the NHL. Others can end up better but they have much bigger obstacles to overcome.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

As successful a season as Dobson has had, he still shows a lot of raw abilities, suggesting he's poised to become a better player... and teams will no doubt look at that when they're deciding between the two.

The only little thing about Dobson that I don't like, and I feel like we don't talk about it enough, is that his puckhandling ability seems iffy at times. When he's got the puck on the PP and he's moving around, he sometimes looks awkward and not fully in control. By comparison, Bouchard, Hughes, and Boqvist are guys who have that puck with a death grip. They're all great puck possessors with hands for days. Dobson is not in that group for me.

Edit: there was another section here, but I've been drinking and I can't numbers.

 

[Micklebot]

That's an excellent point. And I can't speak for them, I have no idea what they're factoring into that...I doubt they're reading his chemistry tests though...

So, I coach at a level where I'm asked to vote on things of this nature in some respects. And yeah...there's video...yeah I'm obviously at the games...yeah I'm talking to other coaches...I talk to my players...at the end of the day, I'm not studying for this type of poll, these types of awards...I want to get as close as I can to something reasonable and then I want to turn it in...

So, I might have a little voter fatigue (because the OHL poll isn't short) because I've already voted for some of the same guys for other things and I know that every time I play London I get my lunch fed to me by this kid who never comes off the ice...so he must be doing something...I don't know the rationale, I don't get how anyone can watch that player and think he plays the game intelligently. Maybe with the puck on his stick and some of the passes he makes, you see some quick puck movement and assume he's intelligent because of that (the guy with the fastest draw in the West is Morgan Frost, he won first place in the smartest competition, so maybe it's that)...

In 2014, Connor McDavid didn't finish top 3...in the conference...for smartest player. He was already put down for (and won) best skater, best playmker, best stickhandler. There's no doubt McDavid is a hockey genius...

But you're right, it's a good question...it's not like one or two coaches said it...a bunch did and I'm just some idiot...so I'd have no problem with someone taking exception. That said, he's not a smart player in my eyes...I think he'll have success early on in his pro career - I'm not sure how long it will last maybe 2 or 3 years...maybe even 5 or 6...but I really don't think we're looking at a long-term, stud defenseman...I just don't think he has the brains or the adaptability to pull that off...like Phaneuf, I imagine that all of his best seasons will come before the age of 22 or 23...

Thx, fair points.

 

[Jabba11]

The only little thing about Dobson that I don't like, and I feel like we don't talk about it enough, is that his puckhandling ability seems iffy at times. When he's got the puck on the PP and he's moving around, he sometimes looks awkward and not fully in control. By comparison, Bouchard, Hughes, and Boqvist are guys who have that puck with a death grip. They're all great puck possessors with hands for days. Dobson is not in that group for me.

Edit: there was another section here, but I've been drinking and I can't numbers.

And that's a good thing. He can improve and be more poise with the puck. He's no Sergachev but I would be more than happy if we replace Sergachev's loss by Dobson. Noah can become a very similar player to Seth Jones IMO.

 

[Petes2424]

The only little thing about Dobson that I don't like, and I feel like we don't talk about it enough, is that his puckhandling ability seems iffy at times. When he's got the puck on the PP and he's moving around, he sometimes looks awkward and not fully in control. By comparison, Bouchard, Hughes, and Boqvist are guys who have that puck with a death grip. They're all great puck possessors with hands for days. Dobson is not in that group for me.

Edit: there was another section here, but I've been drinking and I can't numbers.

It's a fair criticism but I think it's more of the awkwardness of a big player handling the puck as much as he does. I honestly wasnt a Dobson guy until about half way through this season. After watching him throughout the season though, he's becoming more defined by the month with more room to move. One thing about his possession skills... he's in high traffic a lot. Obviously not as much as Hughes, who owns high traffic areas like no other D prospect, but more than most others in that regard. Especially for a big man.. and does quite well. But admittedly, he does look a bit awkward at times.

I look at him a lot of the way I looked at Dumba a few years ago in a few areas. The pure talent is sky high. How much it evolves will be the question. Bouchard is pretty much a defined player already. Not sure he has much more of a ceiling and not sure he can create space at the NHL level to be a top end player. I havent seen enough of Boqvist to make a real judgment on his all around game. Looks great at the junior level but I've heard some high risk negatives from people I respect though, including how he really struggled playing at the SHL level. Whether that would mean he needs 2-3 years minimum, dont know. If that's the case though, he's not a top ten pick.

 

[drw02]

Based upon what we get from the media and our tendencies my guess is that our D board looks like Bouchard, Hughes, Dobson, Boqvist. A couple of insiders have suggested that Bouchard would be our pick. Some others have said if not Bouchard then Hughes. Draper said some good things about Boqvist earlier in the year but I don't think the Wings would like his concussion history. Furthermore Tyler Wright has been a size queen thus far so that's why I think Dobson over Boqvist even though neither has been talked about much.

That being said it's all smoke and mirrors so I could be totally wrong and we take Boqvist.

I find it odd when Wings front office have publicly discussed the draft the last few months they never seem to mention Hughes. It's not really the Wings style to leak draft info and I almost feel like the Bouchard buzz would be to throw teams off who they really want. Hughes might actually be the guy they covet, they got a really close look at him at WC's. Or perhaps even Wahlstrom if they really think he's gonna be an elite scorer, they've been looking for a RH sniper for like a decade. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

 

[HisNoodliness]

I find it odd when Wings front office have publicly discussed the draft the last few months they never seem to mention Hughes. It's not really the Wings style to leak draft info and I almost feel like the Bouchard buzz would be to throw teams off who they really want. Hughes might actually be the guy they covet, they got a really close look at him at WC's. Or perhaps even Wahlstrom if they really think he's gonna be an elite scorer

Yeah you can drive yourself crazy trying to figure out who they're going to pick. I'm just going to assume that the Bouchard rumors are earnest and try to get hyped for him. If we take someone else I'll probably be pretty happy regardless. I like this top 9.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

I find it odd when Wings front office have publicly discussed the draft the last few months they never seem to mention Hughes. It's not really the Wings style to leak draft info and I almost feel like the Bouchard buzz would be to throw teams off who they really want. Hughes might actually be the guy they covet, they got a really close look at him at WC's. Or perhaps even Wahlstrom if they really think he's gonna be an elite scorer, they've been looking for a RH sniper for like a decade. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Word is that the Sens like Bouchard do you may be in luck.

 

[lawrence]

Full disclosure here; I have not watched enough of Bouchard to have my own opinion on his hockey sense, but...

It's odd for me to see you so adamant about his lack of hockey sense while at the same time reading about him being voted 3rd smartest hockey player in the western conference in the OHL coaches poll. I'm of course assuming that the poll isn't asking about academics and instead is looking for opinions on the players hockey sense.

This isn't a criticism of your opinion, you've shown in the past to back your opinions up, I'm just trying to understand what those voting coaches are seeing that you aren't, or that you're seeing that they aren't. I guess it's possible the coaches are really focused on offensive instincts, idk...

was also voted best offensive dman in the OHL winning all 1st place votes, (voted by GMs)
hockey sense is actually his strenghts, only knock apparently is his skating, but his backwards skating is as good as Dobsons, and good enough for a dman.

 

[lilidk]

Most people think way more of his skating than you appear to. Personally I'd rate him as an average to above-average skater in this draft, and I believe that's a fairly consensus opinion. Furthermore because he played 30+ minutes a game this season, there's a strong possibility his skating suffered due to the need to conserve energy. His stride is a little awkward and he's being compared to Hughes (best skater in this draft and truly phenomenal), Boqvist (great skater), and Dobson (great skater) so Bouchard's skating is underrated. He's pretty great at joining the rush, and is sufficiently smart that he's rarely caught out of position because of it.

That being said he's my least favorite of those 4 D because I really value skating and the other 3 are all pretty great at it.

I have never understand why Lindstrom was so good , he was slooooow

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

I got bored and I watched a London game that I hadn't seen, and I decided to watch for the things that people seem to hate about Bouchard's game. Here's my unorganized take. This would be a lot more readable if I could indent the bullet points, sorry.

• The intensity thing: sometimes Bouchard is just like...standing there, and then he moves a little bit, and then he stands there for a while too... and it's just not very inspiring. I definitely saw that. But what I realized after rewinding a little bit was that Bouchard was in position. He was almost always in position. And a lot of the time, he was predicting the play very well. He wasn't standing where the play was, but where the play was going. And when he needed to, he would totally mug somebody in the corner. In this particular game, he went Chris Pronger a couple of times in front of the net. He sure likes to crosscheck...
  
• The skating thing: some of that is what I just talked about, which is his ability to read the play. But other times, he wouldn't be the first guy back. He wasn't speeding down the ice, and he wasn't skating very hard, either. By the end of the game, my conclusion was this:
  
• (1) Bouchard was paired with Regula, who by my reckoning skates quite well, and it was pretty much a set thing that when Bouchard pinches or commits, Regula gets back. This often meant Bouchard just didn't need to be fast, and everybody involved seemed to understand that. Bouchard was never in a hurry.
  
• (2) London's team seemed pretty speedy in general. By this point in the season they had traded the big guns, but they still had Formenton and Foudy, who are quite fast, and the other guys kept up pretty well. It looked to me like London as a team knew that somebody needs to cover for Bouchard when he pinches, and that player was a forward a couple of times. Everybody seemed comfortable with that setup, and Bouchard never looked out of position or panicky or anything.
  
• But I do want to add that the couple of times in the game that Bouchard decided to skate hard, he generated solid separation. He looked like he could really move. But he didn't do that very often. I just think it might not be his game.
• Offensive stuff: He didn't shoot a lot this game, although he did score. A lot of it was deferring to Alex Formenton, which in this game wasn't really working for them. His passing was quite good, and he sprung Formenton on a couple of really nice rushes. On one breakout he bounced the puck off the boards and right onto Formenton's stick for an odd-man rush. The other players on the ice weren't even turned around yet. It was really impressive. One irritating habit I saw: Bouchard kept trying to stickhandle between like... 4 defenders all at once, and at kind of a slow speed. It was like he was practicing his Patrick Kane shootout move or something. But he did it probably... 4-5 times, and he lost the puck every time. I'm sure he's scored that way, but it's something he's going to have to give up.

TL;DR: I watched a game (London vs Guelph from March 7th). Bouchard played very well. I thought his skating was fine, and that the system and defense partner London uses makes Bouchard seem slower than he is. That said, even though I'm not worried about the skating thing, the intensity thing is a little more worrying. It's hard to tell if Bouchard can knock it off and play at a faster pace because if this game is any indication, he doesn't have to do it very often in London. Still, Bouchard is really good at playing at that pace. It's possible that if you can give him a partner who, like Regula, can really skate, you could make it work. Bouchard has ridiculous offensive ability, so it might be worth it.

And in the event that Bouchard can pick up the pace, look out.

Bonus content: Ryan Merkley had a great assist, but simultaneously looked just terrible. Guelph was using him as a forward half the time (he forechecked on the PP, and at ES in defensive situations they had him essentially play wing). Yuck. Do not want. He's like Quinn Hughes if an evil witch put a curse on him 5 years back.

 

[Frk It]

The only little thing about Dobson that I don't like, and I feel like we don't talk about it enough, is that his puckhandling ability seems iffy at times. When he's got the puck on the PP and he's moving around, he sometimes looks awkward and not fully in control. By comparison, Bouchard, Hughes, and Boqvist are guys who have that puck with a death grip. They're all great puck possessors with hands for days. Dobson is not in that group for me.

Edit: there was another section here, but I've been drinking and I can't numbers.

Don’t lump Bouchard in with Hughes and Boqvist... they both have way better hands.

Dobson handles the puck fine and always has his head up. I don’t see the awkwardness you are referring to.

 

[Orca Smash]

Bouchard for me, I just dont see the upside everyone else is seeing in dobson, I see parayko.

We will find in a few seasons how this pans out.

 

[93LEAFS]

I'd take Dobson pretty easily. His game is so complete and polished. His upside is Pietrangelo, while I think Bouchard's is something closer to Carlson. Dobson has good offensive instincts and plays a very smooth controlled game. While neither of these guys are locks to be stars or even top 4 defenders. I think Dobson has a very realistic chance of his middle gound being a 2/3 defender who skates very well and shuts down the opposition similar to what J-Bo has been since he left Florida. That is an extremely valuable piece. Bouchard's numbers are a bit inflated, and I don't think he's reliable in his own end and competes hard enough.

 

[Captain Holt]

I met a Red Wings scout at work today (the Combine is in town). We got to talking about the draft and he said that they really like this Defenseman from London. TIFWIW.

 

[Micklebot]

I met a Red Wings scout at work today (the Combine is in town). We got to talking about the draft and he said that they really like this Defenseman from London. TIFWIW.

I often wonder why we hear things like this from scouts. You're not the first person to relay info heard from a scout in a passing conversation (and this isn't the first time I've heard someone report that Det likes Bouchard), I kind of wonder if it's a matter of they don't think it will make a difference if it's leaked, or if they are planting it, or if they are just really bad at keeping quiet...

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

I met a Red Wings scout at work today (the Combine is in town). We got to talking about the draft and he said that they really like this Defenseman from London. TIFWIW.

This has been the consistent rumor from our beat writers, so that makes sense. Doesn't mean they'll actually draft him, but the organization sure likes to talk about him.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I often wonder why we hear things like this from scouts. You're not the first person to relay info heard from a scout in a passing conversation (and this isn't the first time I've heard someone report that Det likes Bouchard), I kind of wonder if it's a matter of they don't think it will make a difference if it's leaked, or if they are planting it, or if they are just really bad at keeping quiet...

Same reason why you hear anything in any line of work...some guys just like to talk. They like that attention, they like that they hold information, they like that they can withhold certain things and float trial balloons and other things.

There are some guys out there - usually above the level of scouts - that like to play that mental chess...they want to try to influence some things, they'll try to sell you a bridge...

Other guys just like to chat, they like to tell stories. It's tough too because sometimes you can really throw people under the bus, especially after you have a few tequilas...I've been able to shoot the **** with some guys at the bar and they'll tell a tale and let a name slip and go "oh ****, ****, ****...look, you can't let that get out..."

And then other guys, they know that in the scouting world, knowledge is currency. So they won't tell ya nothing unless they really know you and really trust you...