Bobby Smith, Yay or Nay For Hall Of Fame?

[MXD]

well, he was always second to naslund wasn't he?

the thing that makes me feel like smith is underrated, relative to '80s centers like broten and nicholls, to name two guys who he was better than whose names come up a lot more often than him, is that during the time smith was on the habs the only people who scored more playoff points than him were oilers, brian propp, and his left winger.

but again, that's not to say i think he should be in the hall of fame.

By a very old Guy Lafleur too.

My point was, if you dont outscore a non HHOF'er who happens to be your linemate, you probably arent a HHOF'er.

 

[GlitchMarner]

Is the implication of the Lecavalier comparison that Vinny is HOF-worthy? Because I don't think that will prove to be the case.

No. Not at all.

 

[GlitchMarner]

Basically, you can put him in the same tier as a guy like Lecavalier. That's all. There are some stylistic comparable as well. I don't think you can put him above Middleton from his own era. Maybe he shouldn't be above Bellows and Propp, either.

There are plenty of Smith-level "candidates" who have played since the 80s.

I don't think he has a better case at all than Roenick or Turgeon - maybe even Bondra or Tkachuk.

 

[BobbyAwe]

I do it here since somebody will know who Smith is. If you don't know here is some context. Bobby smith was first noticed when he scored 135 points in 65 games at 19 years old in the ohl. He was a young, flashy player coming into the 1978 draft. He lived up to the hype for his last season in the ohl, as he scored 123 assists and 192 points, both of which are ohl records still today, and lead the ohl over a young 17 year old named Wayne Gretzky. Naturally, Bobby Smith was drafted number 1 by the Minnesota North Stars in the 1978 NHL Amateur Draft. He would go on to win the Calder Memorial Trophy with 74 points in 80 games in 1978-79. In 1981-82, Bobby Smith would go on to have a career year. 114 Points, All Star Game, Top 10 in Hart Memorial Trophy Voting. He would then go on to be a major piece of Montreal's Stanley Cup win in 1986. He would retire with 1036 points in 1077 games. 4 All Star Appearances, a Calder, and a Stanley Cup win. Yay or Nay, and Why?

If we assume only "someone" on a hockey forum will know who he is and that many may not, he probably isn't famous enough to be in the HOF? Some argue against a few players being in the hall who might not have great stats, but something needs be said for the fact that it is a hall of FAME. I am not against Smith making the hall, as I think membership has been compromised already by the inclusion of some, but if he is not "famous" among most fans, that should work against him?

 

[Hobnobs]

By a very old Guy Lafleur too.

My point was, if you dont outscore a non HHOF'er who happens to be your linemate, you probably arent a HHOF'er.

Induct Le petit viking as well.

 

[MXD]

Basically, you can put him in the same tier as a guy like Lecavalier. That's all. There are some stylistic comparable as well. I don't think you can put him above Middleton from his own era. Maybe he shouldn't be above Bellows and Propp, either.

There are plenty of Smith-level "candidates" who have played since the 80s.

I don't think he has a better case at all than Roenick or Turgeon - maybe even Bondra or Tkachuk.

I don't what's more far-fetched : the suggestion that Bellows might be on a higher level than Smith, or the suggestion that Bellows is on the same level as Brian Propp.

 

[MXD]

Induct Le petit viking as well.

Mats Naslund was my childhood idol, but... No.

 

[GlitchMarner]

I don't what's more far-fetched : the suggestion that Bellows might be on a higher level than Smith, or the suggestion that Bellows is on the same level as Brian Propp.

Bringing up Bellows may be pushing it, but there are players from Smith's own era that may have as strong a case as he has. Larmer is another one.

If you put Smith above Bellows, Verbeek and Taylor, does he then beat out Middleton, Propp or Larmer as well?

And these are just forwards from his own era.

 

[MXD]

Without really putting lots of thoughts into this, Smith would pretty much be right around Steve Larmer.

But this, this is kindof a tough thing to do : Larmer is better than Naslund all things considered. Smith was usually outscored by Naslund. Granted, Naslund had a shorter career, but he was far from an one-dimension offensive forward despite being 5'7, and neither Smith and Larmer accomplished a lot past 30 (Naslund didn't accomplish anything at NHL level past this stage).

 

[BlueBull]

Without really putting lots of thoughts into this, Smith would pretty much be right around Steve Larmer.

But this, this is kindof a tough thing to do : Larmer is better than Naslund all things considered. Smith was usually outscored by Naslund. Granted, Naslund had a shorter career, but he was far from an one-dimension offensive forward despite being 5'7, and neither Smith and Larmer accomplished a lot past 30 (Naslund didn't accomplish anything at NHL level past this stage).

84-85 Naslund 79 in 80, Smith 56 in 65
85-86 Naslund 110 in 80, Smith 86 in 79
86-87 Naslund 80 in 79, Smith 75 in 80
87-88 Naslund 83 in 78, Smith 93 in 78
88-89 Naslund 84 in 77, Smith 83 in 80
Naslund is better... But smith would sadly be a better choice than naslund for the hall of fame.

 

[Hobnobs]

Without really putting lots of thoughts into this, Smith would pretty much be right around Steve Larmer.

But this, this is kindof a tough thing to do : Larmer is better than Naslund all things considered. Smith was usually outscored by Naslund. Granted, Naslund had a shorter career, but he was far from an one-dimension offensive forward despite being 5'7, and neither Smith and Larmer accomplished a lot past 30 (Naslund didn't accomplish anything at NHL level past this stage).

Smith had a career before Montreal, I do agree hes around Larmer. I dont think anyone of them was better than the other (Näslund, Larmer, Smith) and I wouldnt be opposed to them getting in the hall. They all worthy of being remembered in the history of hockey.

Note that I dont think HHoF should be just for the cream of the crop, for me its not Hall of Elites. I used to think like that but not anymore. They should at least consider a category for lesser players who are worth to be remembered within the HoF criterias.

 

[MXD]

Well, he did have a career before Montréal, but Naslund too had a career before Smith got to Montréal... not quite the same, but still.

I don't know... I just have a serious issue when one offensive player clearly outscores another offensive player over a certain period of time when both are, or actually should be, in their primes, but the other is considered better in the grand scheme of things. There's a non-insignificant gap in NHL games played, but...

 

[BlueBull]

Well, he did have a career before Montréal, but Naslund too had a career before Smith got to Montréal... not quite the same, but still.

I don't know... I just have a serious issue when one offensive player clearly outscores another offensive player over a certain period of time when both are, or actually should be, in their primes, but the other is considered better in the grand scheme of things. There's a non-insignificant gap in NHL games played, but...

Would you take a younger Tyler Myers over a prime chris phillips?
I wouldn't phillips is a very defensive defenseman.

 

[MXD]

Would you take a younger Tyler Myers over a prime chris phillips?
I wouldn't phillips is a very defensive defenseman.

I'd probably take Martin St-Louis over Jarome Iginla though, and I don't care if MSL needs a custom-made jersey.

 

[decma]

well, he was always second to naslund wasn't he?

the thing that makes me feel like smith is underrated, relative to '80s centers like broten and nicholls, to name two guys who he was better than whose names come up a lot more often than him, is that during the time smith was on the habs the only people who scored more playoff points than him were oilers, brian propp, and his left winger.

but again, that's not to say i think he should be in the hall of fame.

Neat stat. But its not like he was the 3rd best non-Oiler playoff performer (after Propp and Naslund) during that period.
He had 84 points in 107 playoff games.
Gilmour, e.g., had 81 in 77 during those seven playoffs.

I haven't checked the data, but did anyone (other than Oilers) have more playoff games than Smith during that period?

 

[BlueBull]

Neat stat. But its not like he was the 3rd best non-Oiler playoff performer (after Propp and Naslund) during that period.
He had 84 points in 107 playoff games.
Gilmour, e.g., had 81 in 77 during those seven playoffs.

I haven't checked the data, but did anyone (other than Oilers) have more playoff games than Smith during that period?

very interesting. nice respect to bobby smith.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

By a very old Guy Lafleur too.

My point was, if you dont outscore a non HHOF'er who happens to be your linemate, you probably arent a HHOF'er.

well, you have to take into account that smith was traded to the habs 10 games into the season. he had the highest points/game average on the habs that year, ahead of lafleur and naslund. and if you count the points he scored in minnesota before the trade, he also had the most total points of anyone who played on the habs that year, again ahead of lafleur and naslund.

i get your point; bobby smith wasn't an elite offensive guy. but as a sub-elite offensive guy who played a good all-round game, capably held down first line center duties on contending teams, and who throughout his career had a knack on being on teams that went deep into the playoffs, i put him in the same category as propp and larmer, as mentioned by others above. i'll add federko to that list. that's not a hall of famer, but that's a high HOVG player in my books. all told, i take those players over gartner, andreychuk, and other longtime good-but-not-great goal scorers whose teams didn't usually go far in the playoffs. i also take smith over less successful scoring centers like broten and nicholls, though i have him behind the true superstar centers of the era such as savard, stastny, and hawerchuk. the line between a smith and a savard, or between a larmer and a goulet, that's the HHOF line.

as for smith vs. naslund, smith has literally double the NHL career naslund did. and it's not like that other half of his career wasn't very successful: two finals (the second one still chipping in 16 points and FIVE GWGs in a primarily defensive role), 76 playoff points in 77 playoff games in minnesota. in the five seasons before the montreal trade, smith is 9th in regular season points, 21st in points/game (tied with kurri's first three seasons). if you double naslund's career and if we assume he is reasonably close to as successful in "other" half, i would certainly consider him for the HHOF. alfredsson would be a comparable, imo.

Neat stat. But its not like he was the 3rd best non-Oiler playoff performer (after Propp and Naslund) during that period.
He had 84 points in 107 playoff games.
Gilmour, e.g., had 81 in 77 during those seven playoffs.

I haven't checked the data, but did anyone (other than Oilers) have more playoff games than Smith during that period?

no. smith is tied for first among non-oilers with carbonneau and ludwig. basically it goes oilers, then habs, then flyers, then flames. but again, you have to give a guy credit for being the #2 or 1a offensive contributor to a team that played that many playoff games. after all, unlike in the regular season you have the win the games to advance.

this is eye opening: consider that bobby smith played as many playoff games as brendan shanahan, and one more than fedorov and charlie huddy. for a non-dynasty guy who barely made it to 1,000 regular season games, that's pretty incredible. and he was the number one center on his team for the vast majority of those games.


i still think all told, there isn't a lot that separates kopitar and smith, if kopitar retired today.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I'd probably take Martin St-Louis over Jarome Iginla though, and I don't care if MSL needs a custom-made jersey.

i take that all day too. but then MSL was a way better defensive player than iginla. the gap between smith and naslund is less than that, imo, but smith did pull a lot more non-offensive weight on that line than naslund did afaik.

you seem to have watched a lot more 80s habs than i did. would you disagree?

 

[The Panther]

These threads kind of depress me. I'm one for making the Hall of Fame standards much stricter, not more inclusive.

Basically, my answer to all these should so-and-so be in the Hall question is "no". If we have to even ask, it's a no. In my world where the sky is blue, only the most elite players of all-time would be in the Hall of Fame. Yes, there's still an arbitrary cut-off point somewhere, but it's way, way higher than Bobby Smith or Brian Propp.

However, in reality, I can't blame people for asking such question because the Hall has crapped the bed in making the new standard Andreychuk and Housley.

 

[Rarename91]

yes if you get 1,000 points you should get in.

 

[Michael Farkas]

In math, a negative times a negative makes a positive.

In message boards, it does not.

 

[FerrisRox]

I do it here since somebody will know who Smith is. If you don't know here is some context. Bobby smith was first noticed when he scored 135 points in 65 games at 19 years old in the ohl. He was a young, flashy player coming into the 1978 draft. He lived up to the hype for his last season in the ohl, as he scored 123 assists and 192 points, both of which are ohl records still today, and lead the ohl over a young 17 year old named Wayne Gretzky. Naturally, Bobby Smith was drafted number 1 by the Minnesota North Stars in the 1978 NHL Amateur Draft. He would go on to win the Calder Memorial Trophy with 74 points in 80 games in 1978-79. In 1981-82, Bobby Smith would go on to have a career year. 114 Points, All Star Game, Top 10 in Hart Memorial Trophy Voting. He would then go on to be a major piece of Montreal's Stanley Cup win in 1986. He would retire with 1036 points in 1077 games. 4 All Star Appearances, a Calder, and a Stanley Cup win. Yay or Nay, and Why?

No.

Not close.

 

[FerrisRox]

First of all, three finalists.
Secondly, Agreed with the rest.

He was in no way, shape or form the top centre on the 1991 North Stars.

 

[frisco]

However, in reality, I can't blame people for asking such question because the Hall has crapped the bed in making the new standard Andreychuk and Housley.

HF boards really have to stop making Andreychuk and Housley the whipping boys for the HOF. Without getting into the entire argument in this thread Andreychuk had 640 goals and is the all-time leader in power play goals. He wasn't a perfect player but not the weakest choice. I nominate Steve Shutt as the new guy everyone refers to when mentioning lower tier/really not HOF forwards.

Same with Housley. 1232 points (39th overall, 4th amongst dmen) really stand alone. Again, he had flaws but that's outstanding production. Put it this way. Brent Burns, an outstanding offensive defenseman, would have to play 934 more games scoring at his current pace to match Housley.

My Best-Carey

 

[seventieslord]

He wasn't a perfect player but not the weakest choice.

Yes, he is the weakest choice. He was never one of the top-40 players in the NHL, ever. Even following his best season (with a lot of help from Doug Gilmour), for the team that gets the most media attention, THN couldn't find room for him on their annual top-40 and I can't blame them.