Bob Cole Division: #4 Schooners vs. #5 Leafs
- Thread starter VanIslander
- Start date
Hockey Outsider
Registered User
- Jan 16, 2005
- 9,181
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Huh?
If you mean that, as a Canadiens fan I'm biased against the Leafs, you're wrong. I've had the priviledge of living in both Toronto and Montreal in my youth. I'm lucky to have grown up in the two greatest cities in NHL history. I may be a Habs fan first, but the Leafs are a pretty close second. Also, if I'm biased against the Leafs, why would I say that Turk Broda will be the best player in the series?
If that's not the "bias" you're referring to, I have no idea what you mean.
I'm guessing that LL is saying that you're biased against him. He's been spewing the same verbiage in the draft section. Don't know if he's trying to be sarcastic or not, but as we all know, sarcasm rarely works in this venue.
If he's not being sarcastic, then LL's not doing himself any favours when it comes to voting.
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
If this series becomes a close one then one has to look at competitive advantages, and the Schooners seem to have that clearly regarding fourth lines:
Shayne Corson - Michael Peca - Thomas Steen
A trio of captains, all can score, all raise their level of play when the game is on the line, all excellent defensively. Wow. That's almost a perfect playoff back line. Breathtaking. We know what Peca can do in the playoffs, chipping in offensively as well as shutting down opposition centers, a threat shorthanded as well as playing inspirational hockey. But his wingers are more esteemed imo. Or should be. I remember Steen of the Jets as a relentlessly hard working, fast and agile, positionally excellent player who broke up many plays by throwing himself into the action at the right place at the right time. And he had scoring ability too of course. And then there's Corson who not only can score and defend and step up his game in the playoffs but he also brings physicality and grit. The 13th forward Frank Finnigan, known for being the last goal scorer from the pre-original six stanley cup winning Senators, "was a small right-winger who could dish out the punishment and take it too" and could score, probably good to put against the Leafs for a game or two to try and even out the hits. "Although he was a superb defensive forward and penalty killer, he also finished 9th in NHL scoring in 1928."
In contrast, the Leafs have:
Cory Stillman - Dan Bain - Todd Bertuzzi
Does Stillman's recent success in the playoffs make up for all the brain farts he's demonstrated over his career of up and down play, especially defensively? Is Bertuzzi well suited to a fourth line role? Congrats on getting Dan Bain, honored as Canada's top athlete of the last half of the 19th century who in hockey: "the muscular Bain provided scoring, playmaking and a physical presence to two Stanley Cup championship squads. Along with his great skills on ice, he was blessed with natural leadership qualities." That makes the line physical and talented offensively. And goals will have to come as this Leafs line isn't shutting any of the Schooners lines down. But fourth lines can be utilized in a number of ways, and so their role could be to bang and score, and provide depth as these players could take greater responsibilities and move up a line or two in cases of injury. Even the 13th forward for Toronto, young Eric Staal, is of the same sort.
This is just one dimension of the series and not one of the most important, though significant in close playoff series, as history shows.
Shayne Corson - Michael Peca - Thomas Steen
A trio of captains, all can score, all raise their level of play when the game is on the line, all excellent defensively. Wow. That's almost a perfect playoff back line. Breathtaking. We know what Peca can do in the playoffs, chipping in offensively as well as shutting down opposition centers, a threat shorthanded as well as playing inspirational hockey. But his wingers are more esteemed imo. Or should be. I remember Steen of the Jets as a relentlessly hard working, fast and agile, positionally excellent player who broke up many plays by throwing himself into the action at the right place at the right time. And he had scoring ability too of course. And then there's Corson who not only can score and defend and step up his game in the playoffs but he also brings physicality and grit. The 13th forward Frank Finnigan, known for being the last goal scorer from the pre-original six stanley cup winning Senators, "was a small right-winger who could dish out the punishment and take it too" and could score, probably good to put against the Leafs for a game or two to try and even out the hits. "Although he was a superb defensive forward and penalty killer, he also finished 9th in NHL scoring in 1928."
In contrast, the Leafs have:
Cory Stillman - Dan Bain - Todd Bertuzzi
Does Stillman's recent success in the playoffs make up for all the brain farts he's demonstrated over his career of up and down play, especially defensively? Is Bertuzzi well suited to a fourth line role? Congrats on getting Dan Bain, honored as Canada's top athlete of the last half of the 19th century who in hockey: "the muscular Bain provided scoring, playmaking and a physical presence to two Stanley Cup championship squads. Along with his great skills on ice, he was blessed with natural leadership qualities." That makes the line physical and talented offensively. And goals will have to come as this Leafs line isn't shutting any of the Schooners lines down. But fourth lines can be utilized in a number of ways, and so their role could be to bang and score, and provide depth as these players could take greater responsibilities and move up a line or two in cases of injury. Even the 13th forward for Toronto, young Eric Staal, is of the same sort.
This is just one dimension of the series and not one of the most important, though significant in close playoff series, as history shows.
VanI,
I think LL went with the third line for his checking line, and the fourth line is a miscelaneous line. Meanwhile, TC appears to have gone with a scoring line for his third line and a checking line for his fourth line. Thus, I think the better comparison might be LL's third line vs. TC's fourth line. And LL has one of the best third line centres in the draft in Dave Keon.
I like TC's fourth line, although I do have some concerns about Corson. If he's playing to his potential, TC has a star for a fourth line left winger. Corson will bring a lot of grit and toughness, and a wonderful all-round presence. But the words "unfulfilled potential" often came to mind with him. He had moments of excellence, but I think he could have been so much more. And outside of Charles Barkley, there was a North American pro athlete in more barroom brawls than Shayne Corson in the late 80s and early 90s.
I think LL went with the third line for his checking line, and the fourth line is a miscelaneous line. Meanwhile, TC appears to have gone with a scoring line for his third line and a checking line for his fourth line. Thus, I think the better comparison might be LL's third line vs. TC's fourth line. And LL has one of the best third line centres in the draft in Dave Keon.
I like TC's fourth line, although I do have some concerns about Corson. If he's playing to his potential, TC has a star for a fourth line left winger. Corson will bring a lot of grit and toughness, and a wonderful all-round presence. But the words "unfulfilled potential" often came to mind with him. He had moments of excellence, but I think he could have been so much more. And outside of Charles Barkley, there was a North American pro athlete in more barroom brawls than Shayne Corson in the late 80s and early 90s.
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
One aspect not readily apparent is the differences in defensive depth. Both teams have excellent top two pairings but in the playoffs the fifth, sixth and even seventh d-men can see significant ice time and the leafs have a decided competitive advantage in this area.
The Leafs have for their third line pairing and depth:
Bobby Baun was not an offensive d-man but is known for playing with a broken foot and scoring the OT winner in a playoff game, the small 5'9 blueliner suffering a career-ending hit causing spinal damage but not before he helped win four stanley cups, so he brings experience, knowing what it takes to win, and is known as excellent defensively. His pairing partner Bob Goldham also has won several Stanley Cups and is "known for playing the man well in his own zone and contributing the occasional burst of offense" oftening playing in the all-star game. Importantly, he set the standard for shot blocking and that could be a factor against Dionne and Lafontaine's tendency to set up shots. The 7th d-man Robert Svehla I'd appreciated seeing for years, truly remarkabke and underrated, friggin' awesome I'd say, seriously, this guy does it all, but I'll let the "legends of Hockey" website say it because my ravings would come across as a fan's bias, which I am of him a lot: "Svehla... one of the team's workhorses. Former coach Doug MacLean called him the toughest player to come into his hands during his three years with the Panthers. Svehla could get respect in front of the net. As an experienced skater, he cleared space at the net and attacked near the boards just as strongly. But he wasn't getting about 30 minutes of ice time per game for those reasons alone. He brought the Panthers perspective and a talent for clever passing and hard shooting. In the spring of 1996 the Panthers quite unexpectedly progressed to the Stanley Cup finals. With 57 points, Svehla had an excellent season behind him. He also did quite well in the playoffs, where he and Terry Carkner allowed Mario Lemieux and Jaromir Jagr only two goals in the best-of-seven finals of the Eastern Conference against Pittsburgh."
Together, the bottom three defensemen on the Leafs can be counted on to do their job well.
The Schooners on the other hand have some chemistry issues with their last pairing. Billy Birch is a Hart trophy winner but he's also a Lady Byng winner who is listed on several sites as a forward who usually played centre and certainly scored much more than he passed, so his ability on the blueline would be limited offensively except on the powerplay creeping in from the point. He seems best suited as a 7th d-man if he played a season or two of hockey on the blueline, which I'm not sure he ever did. His pairing partner definitely shouldn't be Mathieu Schneider as no one would stay at home! Schneider is a great #6/7 for the powerplay and can handle a regular shift. The last defenseman on the Schooners is Hod Stuart, "a clean player who played for keeps. His punishing checks and long reach frustrated his opponents as much as his offensive rushes dazzled the fans". Not a single stay-at-home defenseman or shot blocker among the bottom three of the Schooners. Is this a good match for their defensively responsible back lines? Perhaps they will kill a lot of time hogging puck possession with blueliners moving up the play slowly and wingers dropping back to cover. It could work. But it's definitely a question mark.
The Leafs have for their third line pairing and depth:
Bobby Baun was not an offensive d-man but is known for playing with a broken foot and scoring the OT winner in a playoff game, the small 5'9 blueliner suffering a career-ending hit causing spinal damage but not before he helped win four stanley cups, so he brings experience, knowing what it takes to win, and is known as excellent defensively. His pairing partner Bob Goldham also has won several Stanley Cups and is "known for playing the man well in his own zone and contributing the occasional burst of offense" oftening playing in the all-star game. Importantly, he set the standard for shot blocking and that could be a factor against Dionne and Lafontaine's tendency to set up shots. The 7th d-man Robert Svehla I'd appreciated seeing for years, truly remarkabke and underrated, friggin' awesome I'd say, seriously, this guy does it all, but I'll let the "legends of Hockey" website say it because my ravings would come across as a fan's bias, which I am of him a lot: "Svehla... one of the team's workhorses. Former coach Doug MacLean called him the toughest player to come into his hands during his three years with the Panthers. Svehla could get respect in front of the net. As an experienced skater, he cleared space at the net and attacked near the boards just as strongly. But he wasn't getting about 30 minutes of ice time per game for those reasons alone. He brought the Panthers perspective and a talent for clever passing and hard shooting. In the spring of 1996 the Panthers quite unexpectedly progressed to the Stanley Cup finals. With 57 points, Svehla had an excellent season behind him. He also did quite well in the playoffs, where he and Terry Carkner allowed Mario Lemieux and Jaromir Jagr only two goals in the best-of-seven finals of the Eastern Conference against Pittsburgh."
Together, the bottom three defensemen on the Leafs can be counted on to do their job well.
The Schooners on the other hand have some chemistry issues with their last pairing. Billy Birch is a Hart trophy winner but he's also a Lady Byng winner who is listed on several sites as a forward who usually played centre and certainly scored much more than he passed, so his ability on the blueline would be limited offensively except on the powerplay creeping in from the point. He seems best suited as a 7th d-man if he played a season or two of hockey on the blueline, which I'm not sure he ever did. His pairing partner definitely shouldn't be Mathieu Schneider as no one would stay at home! Schneider is a great #6/7 for the powerplay and can handle a regular shift. The last defenseman on the Schooners is Hod Stuart, "a clean player who played for keeps. His punishing checks and long reach frustrated his opponents as much as his offensive rushes dazzled the fans". Not a single stay-at-home defenseman or shot blocker among the bottom three of the Schooners. Is this a good match for their defensively responsible back lines? Perhaps they will kill a lot of time hogging puck possession with blueliners moving up the play slowly and wingers dropping back to cover. It could work. But it's definitely a question mark.
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
I actually picked Rocket Richard as the first star of this series. If this series goes seven, Rocket Richard scores nine or ten goals. Best clutch player to ever player the game. I had Keon as my No. 2 star.
If Halifax is to win this series, the Rocket and Turk Broda need to be the top two players in the series, and by a wide margin.
reckoning
Registered User
- Jan 4, 2005
- 7,023
- 1,271
I think a lot of you are really overrating this "cancer in the dressing room" factor. Barrasso and Belfour have both won Stanley Cups, so their attitudes couldn`t have hurt that much. Every great team has had one or two players that were jerks. These guys don`t all hold hands and sing songs before the game. All long as they put it together on the ice, it doesn`t matter.
Remember: Jacques Plante was never overly popular with his teammates in Montreal, but they did all right.
Remember: Jacques Plante was never overly popular with his teammates in Montreal, but they did all right.
BM67
Registered User
On Burch, I can only find indication that he played D in his first NHL season, but there isn't a great deal of material on him, and hardly any of it mention him playing D. As for his scoring more than he passed, everyone had more goals than assists back then, so his stats are no help. Here are a couple of quotes:
"The Hamilton team was shifted to the U.S. where it became the New York Americans in 1926 and Burch, an excellent playmaker and stickhandler, was made captain." - Hockey Hall of Fame
"Burch was a big, strong man blessed with all-around offensive abilities. Although not an overly rough player, he played a hard, clean game. His specialty was the puck-control game, using his superior hand-eye coordination and long reach to set up sparkling offensive plays. This gift combined with a hard, accurate shot and a defensive conscience made Burch everything a coach could want in a player." - Ultimate Hockey
"The Hamilton team was shifted to the U.S. where it became the New York Americans in 1926 and Burch, an excellent playmaker and stickhandler, was made captain." - Hockey Hall of Fame
"Burch was a big, strong man blessed with all-around offensive abilities. Although not an overly rough player, he played a hard, clean game. His specialty was the puck-control game, using his superior hand-eye coordination and long reach to set up sparkling offensive plays. This gift combined with a hard, accurate shot and a defensive conscience made Burch everything a coach could want in a player." - Ultimate Hockey
- Feb 24, 2003
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- 3,052
I just don't think my team takes this to seven games. The Leafs are far too strong up the middle with Lemieux, Sundin and Keon IMO, and the defence on Halifax is nothing to get excited about which leaves Broda vulnerable to getting shelled.
There is a significant difference between being an oddball or an outsider on a team and being a player who is a cancer and according to some detrimental to the team. Belfour has a checkered past which continues to this day.
I have yet to hear the stories of Plante bribing police officers, smashing televisions after getting pulled, getting into fist fights with teammates, etc, etc. His talent isn't enough to make up for these obvious flaws in his character.
maybe the team mate was a a hole
what happend outside of ther rink is personal busines and nto reflective
eddie got along fine in toronto
just because you heard it over there in the west doesntmean its true or the whoel truth
what happend outside of ther rink is personal busines and nto reflective
eddie got along fine in toronto
just because you heard it over there in the west doesntmean its true or the whoel truth
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
The problem isn't just in goal. But with Belfour, Barasso, Bure and Bertuzzi, there just may be too many headcases to control.
I don't think the chemestry thing is such a big deal...the Pens won 2 cups with Barasso, Jagr, Stevens, Samuelsson...who've all had their moments.
When it's crunch time though, I don't think there's ever been a problem with any of them. If you're getting these players in their prime, I don't think you have much to worry about. An early-career Bure for instance was extremely commited to his team...it's later on that he got fat and sunburned.
The only worry I would have is that Barrasso wouldn't want to be backup...but that could probably go for any team since most have a great NHL starter as a backup.
When it's crunch time though, I don't think there's ever been a problem with any of them. If you're getting these players in their prime, I don't think you have much to worry about. An early-career Bure for instance was extremely commited to his team...it's later on that he got fat and sunburned.
The only worry I would have is that Barrasso wouldn't want to be backup...but that could probably go for any team since most have a great NHL starter as a backup.
BM67
Registered User
Pittsburgh had a divided locker room and didn't win anything until Badger Bob took over as coach. I don't see Hap Day as the kind of coach that would bring guys together that well.
Were the police officers also a-holes? Were the televisions a-holes?
Belfour has always had turbulant relationships (and that is being nice) with his backup goaltenders - remember back to his time in Chicago and Hackett? His relationship with his head coach in Keenan (something that could actually be worse under Day) and say what you will about on-ice performance, his performance on the ice did suffer.. unless you forget his horrible performances during the later half of the 90s.
Plus it isn't personal business - you keep on saying it, but fighting with teammates in the most literal sense stopped being personal business. Getting arrested and being a huge distraction for the team is not personal business. He might have been fine in Toronto (face it you are not in the lockerroom either so you also have no idea) but given what we know about his past (and present) behaviours I have a hard time believing that.
Bure alledgidly threatened to hold out of the 1994 Finals unless a new *bigger* contract could be agreed upon. Now in and of itself I would be more than tempted to say whatever given Bure's behaviours regarding money I am of the philosophy that were there is smoke there is fire.
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