Blues 2024 Off-Season Trade Proposals Thread

bleedblue1223

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When I look at the league, there are a lot of teams in the middle that could draft around the top 10 or be a wild card team. You have a handful of really bad teams, but everyone from Seattle to us will be hard to project for next season, and they could finish all over the place. The difference between drafting 8-10 and getting a wild card spot isn't that large.
 
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Thallis

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I think you’re discounting how immovably bad SJS, CHI, ANA, CBJ, MTL, ARI, OTT, SEA, CGY, and BUF are at this point, either from an inferior roster or organizational ineptitude standpoint. Then there are teams like PIT and MIN that might be reshuffling the deck next season and take a couple of steps back from their poor outcomes this season. It is really crowded at the bottom right now.

Even giving back some of the factors you point out, I just don’t see the roster we have now going into next season worse off than any of those teams without multiple catastrophic injuries. While not part of my original comments, I think bottom 10 is possible for any team if they get bit badly enough by the injury bug.
Arizona, Anaheim, & Montreal are young teams figuring out how to play & win. These types of teams are often bad until they aren't, and once players get enough seasoning they can see huge jumps forward like NJ did last season. Seattle was just a playoff team. It was due to an unsustainable shooting %, but it shows that 1 or 2 offensive pieces (and also Dunn being healthy) and see them easily past us. CGY wasn't that far behind us, but it's a fair point that they're losing strong roster players and are likely to step further back. Buffalo had a major lingering injury to Thompson this season, it's like if Thomas was hurt or recovering for 3/4s of the year. Immovably bad is just incorrect.

That's 5 teams where not all that much has to go wrong/right for one or the other to see us being in 6th to last, and let's not forget how old a lot of our roster is, so players like Schenn falling off a cliff due to father time isn't out of the question either.
 

Majorityof1

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Arizona, Anaheim, & Montreal are young teams figuring out how to play & win. These types of teams are often bad until they aren't, and once players get enough seasoning they can see huge jumps forward like NJ did last season. Seattle was just a playoff team. It was due to an unsustainable shooting %, but it shows that 1 or 2 offensive pieces (and also Dunn being healthy) and see them easily past us. CGY wasn't that far behind us, but it's a fair point that they're losing strong roster players and are likely to step further back. Buffalo had a major lingering injury to Thompson this season, it's like if Thomas was hurt or recovering for 3/4s of the year. Immovably bad is just incorrect.

That's 5 teams where not all that much has to go wrong/right for one or the other to see us being in 6th to last, and let's not forget how old a lot of our roster is, so players like Schenn falling off a cliff due to father time isn't out of the question either.

To further this, we could also trade Buch for futures. No gurantee, but that would be a blow to next year's record. No prospect is going to take a big enough leap to make up for a solid 2-way 60+ point player.
 
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MissouriMook

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Arizona, Anaheim, & Montreal are young teams figuring out how to play & win. These types of teams are often bad until they aren't, and once players get enough seasoning they can see huge jumps forward like NJ did last season. Seattle was just a playoff team. It was due to an unsustainable shooting %, but it shows that 1 or 2 offensive pieces (and also Dunn being healthy) and see them easily past us. CGY wasn't that far behind us, but it's a fair point that they're losing strong roster players and are likely to step further back. Buffalo had a major lingering injury to Thompson this season, it's like if Thomas was hurt or recovering for 3/4s of the year. Immovably bad is just incorrect.

That's 5 teams where not all that much has to go wrong/right for one or the other to see us being in 6th to last, and let's not forget how old a lot of our roster is, so players like Schenn falling off a cliff due to father time isn't out of the question either.
We’re just going to have to agree to disagree. I feel like the outcome you describe is dependent on things going much better for the teams below us and much worse for us but not them, a hyper specific set of circumstances. I don’t disagree that the outcome you suggest is possible, my disagreement is with the likelihood. Pair that with the team’s stated “plan” to improve the roster in measured steps, I have serious doubts about the possibility that we proactively get worse by throwing young players in expanded roles and risk muting their development. I fully expect an attempt to move out two players on the wrong side of 30 and bring in two players 27 or younger to take the next step towards being a legitimate contender in 2-3 years.
 

Stealth JD

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We'll probably be drafting between 10 and 20 for the next few seasons, until some of the gaping holes on the roster are plugged with capable skaters. They won't be drafting anywhere in the top-6 - Army just won't let that happen. Injuries may find the Blues drafting in the 7-10 range, but I can't foresee a situation where the Blues are the dregs of the league as they were in '05.
 
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Thallis

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We’re just going to have to agree to disagree. I feel like the outcome you describe is dependent on things going much better for the teams below us and much worse for us but not them, a hyper specific set of circumstances. I don’t disagree that the outcome you suggest is possible, my disagreement is with the likelihood. Pair that with the team’s stated “plan” to improve the roster in measured steps, I have serious doubts about the possibility that we proactively get worse by throwing young players in expanded roles and risk muting their development. I fully expect an attempt to move out two players on the wrong side of 30 and bring in two players 27 or younger to take the next step towards being a legitimate contender in 2-3 years.

The thing is that this year went much better for us than an average year, especially compared to the teams I mentioned. Using it as a baseline is a mistake when it comes to odds. This roster's overall trajectory is and has been downward; it's going to take serious additions that are rarely available to even think about that timeline to compete. We need elite talent to contend and that doesn't really exist in our pipeline. Doug has occasionally pulled a rabbit out of the hat before but he has his work cut out for him here. Turning middling players in their 30s on long term expensive contracts into young, effective players isn't really a realistic expectation to have unless we're willing to put all of our prospects on the table to do so.
 

Brian39

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I think you’re discounting how immovably bad SJS, CHI, ANA, CBJ, MTL, ARI, OTT, SEA, CGY, and BUF are at this point, either from an inferior roster or organizational ineptitude standpoint. Then there are teams like PIT and MIN that might be reshuffling the deck next season and take a couple of steps back from their poor outcomes this season. It is really crowded at the bottom right now.

Even giving back some of the factors you point out, I just don’t see the roster we have now going into next season worse off than any of those teams without multiple catastrophic injuries. While not part of my original comments, I think bottom 10 is possible for any team if they get bit badly enough by the injury bug.
Very hard disagree on a lot of these teams being immovably bad. There are only 5 teams in the NHL this year with fewer than 75 points right now and Montreal has 2 games to earn 1 point to hit that mark. There were 6 teams with 70 or fewer points in each of the previous 2 seasons and this year there will only be 4. If anything, the actual bottom is the least crowded it has been in a while.

Looking at those 4 teams at the true bottom (SJ, CHI, ANA, and CBJ), I actually see a couple with paths out of the true basement, especially if one of them wins the Celebrini lottery.

Bedard was the real deal this season and it wouldn't be at all surprising to see him have that 2nd year jump that guys like Sid, McDavid, and Matthews had, especially if the Hawks can put a bit of actualy NHL talent around him. They have $38M in cap space to supplement the (currently truly awful) roster and also have tons of draft/prospect capital to use in trades if they so choose. I'm not picking the Hawks to be a playofff team next year, but they are about in the stage of their rebuild where they could hit the upswing and be competitive.

I'm less sold on Anaheim being one of those basement teams that finds itself overnight, but Gauthier can very well be an impact player in the middle of the lineup next season and Carlsson should have a bigger impact overall than he had this year. They have $33M in cap space, but I'm not sold that they make a push to improve with vets.

Arizona is (all but fully confirmed) moving to Utah next season and has $49M in cap space with clear incentive to bring in talent to hit the ground running for a new fanbase. They also have 7 surplus 2nd round picks over the next 3 drafts and a top 10 prospect pool to use as trade currency. They could very easily add an entire line + D pair of quality veteran players in addition to whatever prospects prove ready to make the jump. Bill Armstrong has had a clear mandate to build a war chest of futures assets with no concern about the on-ice product for the last couple years. That will absolutely not be the mandate in Salt Lake City and the brand new owner will almost certainly be looking to spend a bunch of money to make a playoff push. The roster for 2024/25 should be significantly better than this year's roster that managed 75 points. 85+ points is very realistic for this group that should be upgrading about half a dozen spots on the roster.

Buffalo is a .506 team with the youngest top 4 D group in the league and $22M in cap space. Power should continue improving and we'll see if Samuelsson can give them more than 42 games next year. They also have a pretty damn skilled group of young forwards that could absolutely see a couple 'next steps.' Finishing with 85+ points next year isn't remotely unrealistic.

Seattle is a .494 team this year and was a playoff team (who won a round) last year. They have $22M in cap space, which will not all be going to internal raises. Beniers had a sophomore slump this year, but I don't think he is a lock to just not be good again next season. Wright had a really nice AHL seasone and contributed in a sheltered/limited role over 8 NHL games. Like Buffalo, finishing with 85+ points isn't at all unrealistic.

I think Calgary should continue stripping their roster for parts, but their ownership group hates missing out on playoff revenue and hates having dead money (via retention or bad contracts) on the books. They have $18M in space to fill 3 roster spots and I could absolutely see them adding over the summer.

The Sens have a number of issues, but they also have 76 points through 80 games after finishing with 86 points the prior season. The goaltending doesn't have much room to get worse than it was this year and they are NHL .500 with Martin. They should be in the market for a coach, so improving into the 85+ point range(where this group has already been) isn't all that unreasonable.

I'm not sure what to make of Montreal this year. They improved their point total while winnig fewer games. Slaf took a nice step, but I'm not sold that they will get much better next year. But like a lot of these teams, they have $20M in cap space and they only have to fill a handful of roster spots.

Are all these teams going to improve? Absolutely not. But a lot of them have pretty clear paths to improving. Not to suddenly be a contender, but to get (or keep) themselves out of the bottom of the league.

From our perspective, we had a decent amount go right this year. Our underlying metrics were bottom 10 across the board but we dramatically outperformed them on-ice. Our top 6 forwards in TOI per game have missed a combined 6 games this year (Thomas, Buch, Kyrou, Schenn, Neighbours, Saad). Our top pair (Parayko/Leddy) missed 0 games. Our 3 C missed 3 total games and our only real injury on D was Faulk missing 21 games (and not looking right all year). Neither of Binner/Hofer got hurt and both were excellent. There is an argument that we had the best injury luck of every team in the league this year. We basically dealt with one meaningful injury to the top half of the lineup (Faulk) and one injury to the bottom half n the last 10 games of the season (Sunny). The odds of getting so lucky next year are extremely slim and it won't take catastrophic injuries to put us in a noticeably worse spot than we were this year.

We were 12-5 in OT/shootouts, which is historically not a reliably repeatable accomplishment.

We may or may not be bringing all of our good players back next year.

I'm not saying that we will for sure be worse, but there are plenty of very realstic scenarios where we see a noticeable drop. The actual bottom of the league isn't crowded and then there are a bunch of teams in the mushy/mediocre middle. I don't think this team tries to tank next year and I wouldn't put money on a top 5 pick, but it's not like we just don't have a reasonable path to a top 10 pick. I'd be surprised if there aren't multiple teams among the group you listed who outperform us next season.
 
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mk80

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I wouldn’t be pissed if we managed to get Hague and Karlsson out of Vegas in the offseason.
Hague is intriguing especially with him likely being expendable now with their signing of Hanafin.

What does recalibrate mean if not a somewhat busy off-season? Re calibrate by definition means to change the calibration, ie change. So to change you have to make moves. So throw that into the pile of "re" words that don't mean shit, and are just buzz words to fool fans into continuing to buy tickets while management does f*** all to improve the team. Retool, refocus, recalibrate, renew, or rewhatever, its all rewarmed over BS.

I took Stillman's comments as him saying the Blues will make necessary tweaks to the roster, but tempering expectations on anything blockbuster... I read the “recalibrating” as meaning we will continue the youth movement to allow to more opportunity for the young players to earn expanded roles. Overall the team is continuing to be patient and allow the growth to come naturally, they're not going to sell the entire farm to force a playoff run or tank for a #1 pick, I'd expect another similar season to this year where we will be in the mix for a wild card spot, maybe ending slightly outside again.
 
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mk80

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Arizona is (all but fully confirmed) moving to Utah next season and has $49M in cap space with clear incentive to bring in talent to hit the ground running for a new fanbase. They also have 7 surplus 2nd round picks over the next 3 drafts and a top 10 prospect pool to use as trade currency. They could very easily add an entire line + D pair of quality veteran players in addition to whatever prospects prove ready to make the jump. Bill Armstrong has had a clear mandate to build a war chest of futures assets with no concern about the on-ice product for the last couple years. That will absolutely not be the mandate in Salt Lake City and the brand new owner will almost certainly be looking to spend a bunch of money to make a playoff push. The roster for 2024/25 should be significantly better than this year's roster that managed 75 points. 85+ points is very realistic for this group that should be upgrading about half a dozen spots on the roster.
Another point on Arizona, they went on a huge 14 game losing streak starting in late January and the entire month of February that catapulted them toward the bottom of the standings.

One could make the argument that their younger core fell victim to the outside noise around the franchise, that was when the first (albeit not nearly as strong) whispers of Utah started to be heard. Andre Tourigny has even stated as much in the midst of all that's going on now about the importance of not being affected by it all during the games.

Either way, I don't think they'll hit another 14 game slide like that next season without some major injury trouble.
 
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Celtic Note

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Hague is intriguing especially with him likely being expendable now with their signing of Hanafin.



I took Stillman's comments as him saying the Blues will make necessary tweaks to the roster, but tempering expectations on anything blockbuster... I read the “recalibrating” as meaning we will continue the youth movement to allow to more opportunity for the young players to earn expanded roles. Overall the team is continuing to be patient and allow the growth to come naturally, they're not going to sell the entire farm to force a playoff run or tank for a #1 pick, I'd expect another similar season to this year where we will be in the mix for a wild card spot, maybe ending slightly outside again.
If we end up in the purgatory of the NHL in the mid teens then we made bad decisions IMO. It was bad enough it happened this year but two years in a row would not be ideal.
 

Mike Liut

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I think we are only a couple moves away from being serious contenders. The top teams in the nhl just aren’t that great these days. If we add a legit 2c and a top pairing LD, and with more progression from Neighbors, Bolduc and Kyrou, we aren’t far off especially with Binny.
 

Spektre

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I think we are only a couple moves away from being serious contenders. The top teams in the nhl just aren’t that great these days. If we add a legit 2c and a top pairing LD, and with more progression from Neighbors, Bolduc and Kyrou, we aren’t far off especially with Binny.

I would watch playoff hockey and then revisit these thoughts.
 

Ted Hoffman

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1. "We should go back to 1-8 seeding for conferences." Every matchup in the East and half the matchups in the West would be exactly the same.

2. We should scratch out the "playoffs" part of the thread title. Or put it in quotes. Or put (lol) after it. Or change it to "non-playoffs."
 

simon IC

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1. "We should go back to 1-8 seeding for conferences." Every matchup in the East and half the matchups in the West would be exactly the same.

2. We should scratch out the "playoffs" part of the thread title. Or put it in quotes. Or put (lol) after it. Or change it to "non-playoffs."
Good idea! Done.
 

Davimir Tarablad

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1. "We should go back to 1-8 seeding for conferences." Every matchup in the East and half the matchups in the West would be exactly the same.
While the 1st round matchups stay the same, 1-8 seeding would mean the #1 and #2 teams in the league would meet in the ECF instead of the 2nd round. Does it really matter? Eh, not really, but I can see the argument for it.
 
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Brian39

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I would watch playoff hockey and then revisit these thoughts.
I have watched much more 'around the league' games than Blues games in the last month and I watch a good amount of non-Blues games all year even when my primary focus is on the Blues. Every year when playoffs start, all the stuff my partner and I watch together gets put on hold and she catches up on 'her shows' in another room for about a month. I know damn well what playoff hockey looks like and I know damn well what the top 15 teams in this league look like this year.

There are very few truly complete teams in the NHL right now. I don't see a team in the league today that looks as good as the 2022 Avs or the two Lightning teams that went back-to-back.

I also think that you are pretty well underestimating how much "just" adding a legit 2C and a top pair D does to a team. Remove either Petro or Theodore plus Chandler Stephensson from Vegas last year and they are pretty far off from being contenders. Remove Parayko and Schenn in 2019 and that team doesn't come close to a Cup run.

Actually adding a legit 2C and a top pair D is no small feat. But those are both top 5-7 players in terms of roster importance. They directly improve the top half of your lineup AND if they are true additions they push players down the lineup to indirectly improve the middle/bottom of your lineup.
 
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taylord22

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I think we've talked about the contender checklist before. It's certainly not perfect, but it's a decent proxy/exercise.

Contender Checklist
• Elite first-line center that’s among the very best players in the world. Thomas
• Elite first-line winger to support the elite center. Bolduc/Snuggerrud
• Two other top-line wingers on each of the top two lines. Kyrou, Neighbors(?)
• Top-line center to play behind the elite center. Dvorsky
• Two more top-six forwards for depth in the middle six. Bolduc/Snuggerrud, Stenberg
• Elite No. 1 defenseman. ?
• A second No. 1 defenseman to play behind him. ?
• A top-pairing defenseman to help anchor a strong second pair with the No. 2. Parayko
• Another top-pairing caliber defender to crush soft minutes on the third pair. Lindstein
• A top-10 caliber starting goaltender. Binnington Hofer

Projecting guys is dangerous, but for the sake of discussion: We're set-up well up-front. We can miss on a guy or two, or trade one away (*assuming these guys stay on track); but there are some giant question marks defensively that we currently have zero answer for.

Additionally, there's a lot of italic in that list. Very few members of our current roster will be around and/or capable of pulling the rope during the next contention window. And some (e.g. Parayko, Buch) will likely be at a different point in their career.

I see us as being a more likable, fun to watch team next year; but likely one that misses the playoffs by a wider margin than we did this year. The following year is probably where it starts to get interesting (especially in so far as that we are almost hilariously the inverse of the Backes teams in construction/gaps). But you're still going to have those massive holes defensively as things sit today; and I'm not sure how far you can make it in the playoffs when the skating picks up (as @PocketNines alluded) and -as a team- you struggle to transition the puck.

You can arguably keep your head above water with lesser skating if your decision making is quick. But we struggle with both up and down the line-up — and particularly on the back-end.
 

Brian39

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I think we've talked about the contender checklist before. It's certainly not perfect, but it's a decent proxy/exercise.

Contender Checklist
• Elite first-line center that’s among the very best players in the world. Thomas
• Elite first-line winger to support the elite center. Bolduc/Snuggerrud
• Two other top-line wingers on each of the top two lines. Kyrou, Neighbors(?)
• Top-line center to play behind the elite center. Dvorsky
• Two more top-six forwards for depth in the middle six. Bolduc/Snuggerrud, Stenberg
• Elite No. 1 defenseman. ?
• A second No. 1 defenseman to play behind him. ?
• A top-pairing defenseman to help anchor a strong second pair with the No. 2. Parayko
• Another top-pairing caliber defender to crush soft minutes on the third pair. Lindstein
• A top-10 caliber starting goaltender. Binnington Hofer

Projecting guys is dangerous, but for the sake of discussion: We're set-up well up-front. We can miss on a guy or two, or trade one away (*assuming these guys stay on track); but there are some giant question marks defensively that we currently have zero answer for.

Additionally, there's a lot of italic in that list. Very few members of our current roster will be around and/or capable of pulling the rope during the next contention window. And some (e.g. Parayko, Buch) will likely be at a different point in their career.

I see us as being a more likable, fun to watch team next year; but likely one that misses the playoffs by a wider margin than we did this year. The following year is probably where it starts to get interesting (especially in so far as that we are almost hilariously the inverse of the Backes teams in construction/gaps). But you're still going to have those massive holes defensively as things sit today; and I'm not sure how far you can make it in the playoffs when the skating picks up (as @PocketNines alluded) and -as a team- you struggle to transition the puck.

You can arguably keep your head above water with lesser skating if your decision making is quick. But we struggle with both up and down the line-up — and particularly on the back-end.
Great post, but I did want to note that it is pretty rare for contenders and eventual winners to check every box. This checklist comes from the Athletic and last year's article had a pretty good breakdown on it.

1713293247602.png


Our 2019 team, the Pens 2016 team, and last year's Knights were the only Cup winners that were at least 'passable, but below average vs other champs' in each category (their data starts with the 2010 Hawks). The other 11 Cup winners all had at least one category were they were 'entirely below the range.' We had 4 'passable but below average' guys on our team and I'd wager that at least one (like our #4 D man) were very close to the cutoff for passability.

Additionally, the metrics they use for past winners is how players performed in the playoffs where the team won, not long term or expected performance. I think there are a lot of instances where these winners wound up checking a few boxes because guys played the best hockey of their career at the right time even though they weren't traditionally that level of player. This makes a lot of winners retroactively look like they 'check more boxes' than they probably do.

Petro on our 2019 team was rated higher than Doughty in either Cup run, Keith in two of their 3 Cup runs, and Hedman in 2021. Long term, he's not that guy.

ROR was rated higher than Boston's best center in 2011, Kopitar in 2012, Toews in 2015, Backstrom in 2018, and anyone Tampa had for either run.

I'm not at all trying to be critical of the exercise, but I do think it is important to realize that basically every great team falls short of the checklist the year they win the Cup and even further short year-over-year.
 

Mike Liut

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Yeah but just look at the skating that you're about to see. Blues don't have the level that playoff teams have. In a week you will be shocked and find it unimaginable that the team we have been watching could compete in this fashion

We haven’t added the 2C and 1LD yet either as I mentioned.
 

taylord22

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Additionally, the metrics they use for past winners is how players performed in the playoffs where the team won, not long term or expected performance. I think there are a lot of instances where these winners wound up checking a few boxes because guys played the best hockey of their career at the right time even though they weren't traditionally that level of player. This makes a lot of winners retroactively look like they 'check more boxes' than they probably do.
Completely agree, and you highlighted one of my biggest problems with it (playoff performance vs. long-term). It works better as a prospective depth chart than it does in retro-analysis, IMO. Appreciated the though exercise they went through, but it glosses over a lot of nuance.
 
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