Between the Marlins and Rays, Major League Baseball has a serious Florida problem

[Fenway]

The great baseball expansion to Florida occurred 25 years ago with the Marlins starting in 1993 followed by the Rays 5 years later. It has failed badly.

I lived in Florida in the early 90's and I had doubts then if people in the state really cared for the game. The Florida State League never did well in attendance and while the Marlins drew 3,000,000 fans in their first year, fans quickly tired of hot humid nights and traffic at what was Joe Robbie Stadium,

St. Petersburg was just the wrong choice period for a stadium. Rays ownership was convinced they would sellout every game until the first day tickets went on sale.

Rays: What went wrong?

ST. PETERSBURG - The line began to form on Thursday night, and by the time the Devil Rays put tickets for their inaugural season on sale that Saturday morning, it stretched more than four blocks from the stadium.
It was a festive scene, complete with player autographs, free snacks and managing general partner Vince Naimoli, who had visions of selling out the entire season, raving about the turnout. There was reason for his optimism, given the success of previous expansion teams and the enthusiasm Tampa Bay fans supposedly had after a decades-long quest for a team.

Tickets for opening day were gone within minutes. Business was steady all day. With only about 16,000 seats to sell for each game (29,000 had been set aside for season tickets and day-of-game sales), Naimoli predicted at least 20 games would be sold out that day.

But when team officials gathered in the ticket office that December 1997 afternoon, the totals weren't what they expected. Nor were the nervous looks on their faces.

The historic opener was their only sellout - and it would be six years before they got another.

I personally thought Orlando was the best landing spot and it would be an easy sell for out of town fans who could partner baseball and the theme parks.

The key in South Florida is getting the Cuban population engaged. Marlins Park in Little Havana should have done it but then Ozzie Guillen praised Castro and Loria did not act immediately to fire him and the Cuban population did not forgive.


Major League Baseball has a serious Florida problem

As Commissioner Rob Manfred grapples with pace of game and decrease of action issues impacting fan interest in his game, the events in Miami and Tampa Bay these past couple of weeks have further demonstrated how baseball has a real Florida problem, with no solution in sight.

Worse, it's a problem that was self-inflicted.

Click to read more...

 

[Voight]

Tampa has a stadium issue.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Of all the teams to have an outdoor stadium, it blows my mind that Tampa Bay still plays in that indoor monstrosity.

I mean, at least Toronto's dome can open on occasion, even though it seems like they close it when there's a 5% chance of rain.

 

[Voight]

Of all the teams to have an outdoor stadium, it blows my mind that Tampa Bay still plays in that indoor monstrosity.

I mean, at least Toronto's dome can open on occasion, even though it seems like they close it when there's a 5% chance of rain.

Sky dome takes 10-15mins to open/close, that's why they close it when theres a small chance of rain. Your fans wont be happy if they get poured on.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Sky dome takes 10-15mins to open/close, that's why they close it when theres a small chance of rain. Your fans wont be happy if they get poured on.

I've actually been rained on at a Jays game. Happened years ago but I don't remember being upset at all by it.

Some fans actually bolted for the exits but most just stayed put and watched the game. The same thing 90% of all baseball fans in open stadiums tend to do, when there's a little bit of rain.

 

[Bjorn Le]

Tampa has a stadium issue.

Overblown. Stadium's are problematic but they can't alone ruin a franchise. We know from history that teams with crappy stadiums can still draw OK if they're 1) a new team 2) a very successful team. The Rays couldn't draw during either. It's simply not a good baseball market, and will likely be moved to Montreal in the next 5-7 years.

 

[tony d]

I agree, it's been a long term issue for that state. Got to think if things don't soon improve a city like Montreal or Charlotte may come knocking and one of the Florida teams could re-locate.

 

[robert terwilliger]

even a retractable dome barely works in florida. it just gets really f***ing hot here, guys. the kind of hot that you stick to your seat and are dehydrated after 15 minutes. the kind of hot that you need to constantly have one of those helmets with the two bottles on it and just constantly be drinking water. in summer, i get the mail at 1030pm because i'm less likely to burn my feet or be drenched in sweat from the walk to and from the mailbox.

i can't fault a team for just playing indoors. i've been to marlins park when the roof was open and it was 89 degrees on a june night. i wanted to f***ing hang myself. anything done here from may to september is done indoors with the air on.

 

[Voight]

Overblown. Stadium's are problematic but they can't alone ruin a franchise. We know from history that teams with crappy stadiums can still draw OK if they're 1) a new team 2) a very successful team. The Rays couldn't draw during either. It's simply not a good baseball market, and will likely be moved to Montreal in the next 5-7 years.

Really? Cause the Olympic Stadium is one of the top reasons why the Expos were forced to relocate.

Tampa was one of the top AL teams from 2008-2013 in case you forgot.

 

[Bjorn Le]

Really? Cause the Olympic Stadium is one of the top reasons why the Expos were forced to relocate.

Tampa was one of the top AL teams from 2008-2013 in case you forgot.

I literally explained that all in that post. I said stadium's can't alone ruin a franchise, then you reply with a comment that Olympic stadium was one of the reasons they failed. Notice I didn't say they aren't a reason? I said they're not the only reason. I also said Tampa Bay couldn't draw fans when they were successful, so clearly I know that Tampa was once a top team in MLB. Unlike other top teams, their attendance remained putrid throughout their strong years.

Please, read the posts you're replying to before you decide to reply.

 

[Voight]

I literally explained that all in that post. I said stadium's can't alone ruin a franchise, then you reply with a comment that Olympic stadium was one of the reasons they failed. Notice I didn't say they aren't a reason? I said they're not the only reason. I also said Tampa Bay couldn't draw fans when they were successful, so clearly I know that Tampa was once a top team in MLB. Unlike other top teams, their attendance remained putrid throughout their strong years.

Please, read the posts you're replying to before you decide to reply.

The Rays piss poor stadium is the reason they couldn't draw fans while they were successful.

Likewise, the Expos crappy joke of a baseball field resulted in attendance dwindling and as a result forced them to move to DC.

 

[Bjorn Le]

The Rays piss poor stadium is the reason they couldn't draw fans while they were successful.

Likewise, the Expos crappy joke of a baseball field resulted in attendance dwindling and as a result forced them to move to DC.

It's not the only reason. What it does do is it makes a local market who for the most part could care less about the Rays really not care. The Expos were forced to move for a wide variety of reasons, from fans not forgiving MLB for the strike that killed their best chance at a World Series, ownership sabotaging the team, and Bud Selig doing everything in his power to ensure the team did not stay (same guy who tried to get the owners to contract Minnesota and Montreal).

 

[robert terwilliger]

even when the rays were "poor" in attendance they were still light years ahead of the expos's poor attendance.

 

[Bjorn Le]

even when the rays were "poor" in attendance they were still light years ahead of the expos's poor attendance.

They really weren't. Rays have had bad attendance since their inception, Expos attendance until 1997 is ranges from meh to pretty decent. Before 1997, their only putrid year is 1991, and then after 1997 it falls apart.

 

[AdmiralsFan24]

They really weren't. Rays have had bad attendance since their inception, Expos attendance until 1997 is ranges from meh to pretty decent. Before 1997, their only putrid year is 1991, and then after 1997 it falls apart.

You can't have it both ways. If 20,000-22,000 is bad for the Rays, it's bad for the Expos. Not meh. Not decent. Bad.

 

[Bjorn Le]

You can't have it both ways. If 20,000-22,000 is bad for the Rays, it's bad for the Expos. Not meh. Not decent. Bad.

I can, because the Expos have several years where they are top half in attendance, and plenty where they are middle of the pack. The Rays however, have usually been last or second last, were never top half even when they were good, and had their best season in their first year and even that wasn’t great. Context is what matters, not just the raw figures.

 

[robert terwilliger]

all you people do is use context w/r/t the expos attendance.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

The great baseball expansion to Florida occurred 25 years ago with the Marlins starting in 1993 followed by the Rays 5 years later. It has failed badly.

I lived in Florida in the early 90's and I had doubts then if people in the state really cared for the game. The Florida State League never did well in attendance and while the Marlins drew 3,000,000 fans in their first year, fans quickly tired of hot humid nights and traffic at what was Joe Robbie Stadium,

St. Petersburg was just the wrong choice period for a stadium. Rays ownership was convinced they would sellout every game until the first day tickets went on sale.

Rays: What went wrong?

ST. PETERSBURG - The line began to form on Thursday night, and by the time the Devil Rays put tickets for their inaugural season on sale that Saturday morning, it stretched more than four blocks from the stadium.
It was a festive scene, complete with player autographs, free snacks and managing general partner Vince Naimoli, who had visions of selling out the entire season, raving about the turnout. There was reason for his optimism, given the success of previous expansion teams and the enthusiasm Tampa Bay fans supposedly had after a decades-long quest for a team.

Tickets for opening day were gone within minutes. Business was steady all day. With only about 16,000 seats to sell for each game (29,000 had been set aside for season tickets and day-of-game sales), Naimoli predicted at least 20 games would be sold out that day.

But when team officials gathered in the ticket office that December 1997 afternoon, the totals weren't what they expected. Nor were the nervous looks on their faces.

The historic opener was their only sellout - and it would be six years before they got another.

I personally thought Orlando was the best landing spot and it would be an easy sell for out of town fans who could partner baseball and the theme parks.

The key in South Florida is getting the Cuban population engaged. Marlins Park in Little Havana should have done it but then Ozzie Guillen praised Castro and Loria did not act immediately to fire him and the Cuban population did not forgive.


Major League Baseball has a serious Florida problem

As Commissioner Rob Manfred grapples with pace of game and decrease of action issues impacting fan interest in his game, the events in Miami and Tampa Bay these past couple of weeks have further demonstrated how baseball has a real Florida problem, with no solution in sight.

Worse, it's a problem that was self-inflicted.

There's a reason the FSL doesn't do great in terms of attendance considering most of the teams are owned by their MLB parent and play at their spring training site. No real incentive to really advertise/market games, come up with promos, or the like because they'd have players and personnel down there anyway.

 

[Bjorn Le]

all you people do is use context w/r/t the expos attendance.

Context is everything. Why would we consider the Expos attendance to be worse than the Rays when on average, until 1998, in comparison to the rest of the league they were doing better than the Rays. During the Expos golden years in the early 1980s, they were drawing above the league average. Something the Rays have literally never done (if you threw a dart at the Rays attendance, you are almost certainly going to end up in a year where they are either last or second last in attendance)

 

[AdmiralsFan24]

I can, because the Expos have several years where they are top half in attendance, and plenty where they are middle of the pack. The Rays however, have usually been last or second last, were never top half even when they were good, and had their best season in their first year and even that wasn’t great. Context is what matters, not just the raw figures.

No, it doesn't matter in this case.

Let's look at the Expos attendance from 1992-1994. 87 win team, 2nd place in the division, 21st out of 26 teams in attendance. 1993, 94 win team, 2nd place in the division, 27th out of 28 teams in attendance. 1994, the year every Expos fan likes to tell us is the one that killed the franchise because they were World Series contenders and the strike cancelled the season, 19th of 28 teams in attendance.

 

[AdmiralsFan24]

During the Expos golden years in the early 1980s, they were drawing above the league average.

You want context? You could draw 19,000 per game in the early 1980s and be above average in attendance.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

When the Expos had their brief run of being a playoff competitor in the early 80s - with a whole one year of actually qualifying for the playoffs - they drew an average of over 28,000 per game. Nearly 30 years later when the Rays were a contender, with a much longer period of success with 4 playoff appearances and 1 World Series appearance, their attendance peaked at 23,000 per game. Factor in average MLB attendance from the early 80s versus the present and the difference between the two franchises is more striking.

It's pretty clear there is a greater potential for higher attendance in Montreal than in Tampa if the team is competing (and qualifying) for a playoff spot.

 

[Bjorn Le]

No, it doesn't matter in this case.

Let's look at the Expos attendance from 1992-1994. 87 win team, 2nd place in the division, 21st out of 26 teams in attendance. 1993, 94 win team, 2nd place in the division, 27th out of 28 teams in attendance. 1994, the year every Expos fan likes to tell us is the one that killed the franchise because they were World Series contenders and the strike cancelled the season, 19th of 28 teams in attendance.

Why? Because it doesn't support your argument?

What's at stake here isn't whether the Expos attendance is/was good. It's not. Outside the late 1970s/early 1980s, the Expos are a bottom half attendance team, usually bottom third. But their attendance is unequivocally better than the Rays. That is by virtue of the fact they actually have seasons where the team is good and they had good attendance. This has never been true for the Rays. It literally has never been. In what world is the Rays attendance better? The history of the Montreal Expos is not 1998-2003. The Rays have four years where they drew over 20,000 fans, their first season, and 2008-2010. It's highly likely they never will again.

Attendence doesn't just go up as soon as a team is good. Look at Cleveland last year. Look at the Jays during Bautista's breakout season. It took the Indians a trip to the World Series for attendance to spike this year. The Jays didn't suddenly go from bottom half in attendance to top three/top five, they steadily went up from 2010. If the strike doesn't happen in 1994, Montreal likely continues an upswing, especially if Loria doesn't get control of the team and Labatt Field actually happened.

Let's not sugar-coat things. The Rays attendance is horrible. It's historically horrible. It's worse than the Expos. There is no working away this.

You want context? You could draw 19,000 per game in the early 1980s and be above average in attendance.

And the Expos were drawing almost 30,000. But no, let's pretend what only matters here is the 1990s and beyond Expos when deciding whether the Rays or Expos attendance is worse. It's a totally legitimate argument to ignore evidence that doesn't support your argument when trying to make one.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Florida was a bad sports market and I think if not for the TV deal the NFL would be having issues as well.

 

[Blitzkrug]

Weird how the only team that can draw consistently in the Florida market is a team playing a sport that in theory has no business being in the Florida area. (Lightning) Probably helps their barn is smack dab in the middle of downtown Tampa.

the MLB had a golden chance with the Marlins when that Cuban dude came forward as a interested buyer. Loved by the Cuban community in the area, had a passion for baseball and most importantly, had a metric ****ton of money to the point he could have easily bought the team and then actually pumped money into it to make the Marlins relevant.

Instead, they picked a bunch of schmucks who offered a slightly higher bid (despite needing a small army to assemble the needed cash) because of "muh Jeter figurehead."

Not to say Jeter's at fault for anything with the Stanton deal or anything, this is all on the MLB.