Better 36-year-old season: Crosby 23-24 vs Ovechkin 21-22

[filinski77]

Excluding EN situations, no forward has been on ice for more EVGA than Crosby in 23-24.

Here's how their numbers stack up in the respective seasons:

Crosby EVGA 79 (3.74/60)

EV xga/60 in the seasons in question
Crosby 3.2
Ovechkin 2.74

This is hilarious because the above stats are saying that Crosby's actual AND expected defensive impact has been bad. Yet 3 of the biggest die-hard Pens fans on this site are saying the complete opposite... Shocked.

Crosby very easily lol. More points much better all around game

Crosby. 36 year old Ovechkin is as one dimensional as they come

Crosby really carried a lifeless corpse till the end of the season with elite faceoff skills and a much better 200 foot game.

Crosby still really drove play much better and had more overall impact on the ice.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

This is hilarious because the above stats are saying that Crosby's actual AND expected defensive impact has been bad. Yet 3 of the biggest die-hard Pens fans on this site are saying the complete opposite... Shocked.

Guess the nhl players who voted him the most complete player have no idea

 

[Midnight Judges]

Why is it that you seem to know so much more about Crosby's lack of defense that pretty much everyone else around the game? That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Hockey media narratives have a way of taking on a life of their own. It ends up with some lame results from time to time, such as Lemieux losing the '89 Hart, or Toews being anointed as rivaling Crosby and Malkin, etc.

In Crosby's case, as soon as he was no longer a contender for the Art Ross, the Canadian media compensated by saying he was becoming great at defense. In reality, Crosby's defensive zone starts went down, and his penalty killing was basically eliminated. Meanwhile, his on-ice goals against have rarely been exemplary (same as Ovechkin). During the primes of their careers, Crosby has been quite close to Ovechkin in this regard - and for the most part nowhere near the ballpark of the actual great defensive forwards like Bergeron, Datsyuk, Kopitar, etc.

That said, defensive stats are nebulous and not nearly as definitive as offensive statistics, so there is room for fudging things, and people have taken many liberties with it.

 

[Toby91ca]

Hockey media narratives have a way of taking on a life of their own. It ends up with some lame results from time to time, such as Lemieux losing the '89 Hart, or Toews being anointed as rivaling Crosby and Malkin, etc.

In Crosby's case, as soon as he was no longer a contender for the Art Ross, the Canadian media compensated by saying he was becoming great at defense. In reality, Crosby's defensive zone starts went down, and his penalty killing was basically eliminated. Meanwhile, his on-ice goals against have never been exemplary. During the primes of their careers, Crosby has been quite close to Ovechkin in this regard - and for the most part nowhere near the ballpark of the actual great defensive forwards like Bergeron, Datsyuk, Kopitar, etc.

That said, defensive stats are nebulous and not nearly as definitive as offensive statistics, so there is room for fudging things, and people have taken many liberties with it.

I get that there are players and some media that would actually pick him as their Selke winner, or at least in the mix. I would have a hard time voting for Selke to be quite honest with you as stats are simply not good enough to help and I don't watch enough different players closely for many, many games to assess. What I can say is of the games I've seen of a Crosby (one against Colorado was amazing both ends of the ice, but I accept that as not a norm)....the others, he's made good defensive plays and he's missed some plays....but I'd say the same about most players. There are some players that I've seen enough of that I'd say are terrible defensively....no idea what the stats show, but they are simply bad.

I understand the media narrative thing, but it simply doesn't have the strength you are suggesting it does where players are brainwashed to think he's such a complete player because of what the media is saying. Basically, you are saying he's one of the worst defensive forwards in the league this year and many suggesting he should get consideration for Selke.

To be clear, I'm not a voter, but even if I was, I wouldn't vote for Crosby as Selke, but that doesn't stop me from saying he's better defensively than OV. Am I watching them both super closely, each playing 82 games a year, no....but enough that I'm comfortable enough with view.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I get that there are players and some media that would actually pick him as their Selke winner, or at least in the mix. I would have a hard time voting for Selke to be quite honest with you as stats are simply not good enough to help and I don't watch enough different players closely for many, many games to assess. What I can say is of the games I've seen of a Crosby (one against Colorado was amazing both ends of the ice, but I accept that as not a norm)....the others, he's made good defensive plays and he's missed some plays....but I'd say the same about most players. There are some players that I've seen enough of that I'd say are terrible defensively....no idea what the stats show, but they are simply bad.

I understand the media narrative thing, but it simply doesn't have the strength you are suggesting it does where players are brainwashed to think he's such a complete player because of what the media is saying. Basically, you are saying he's one of the worst defensive forwards in the league this year and many suggesting he should get consideration for Selke.

To be clear, I'm not a voter, but even if I was, I wouldn't vote for Crosby as Selke, but that doesn't stop me from saying he's better defensively than OV. Am I watching them both super closely, each playing 82 games a year, no....but enough that I'm comfortable enough with view.

Selke voting is pretty bad IMO. Somewhere along the line it often became a "pump up my favorite player" vote and not about the actual criteria, which is:

"...National Hockey League forward who demonstrates the most skill in the defensive component of the game."

Personally, I'd be voting for shutdown/match-up line players who do lots of penalty killing and defensive zone draws. -Lots of unheralded 3rd liners. I realize that's not the sexiest or flashiest media narrative though.

 

[Toby91ca]

Selke voting is pretty bad IMO. Somewhere along the line it often became a "pump up my favorite player" vote and not about the actual criteria, which is:

"...National Hockey League forward who demonstrates the most skill in the defensive component of the game."

Personally, I'd be voting for shutdown/match-up line players who do lots of penalty killing and defensive zone draws. -Lots of unheralded 3rd liners. I realize that's not the sexiest or flashiest media narrative though.

I don't disagree with you there. These days (many, many, many years now), you don't get a sniff at the Selke if you aren't also producing at least beyond a certain threshold offensively. I guess the argument is that you are a forward, you should produce points and if you aren't doing that, it's part of your game that is lacking.....Selke isn't for best defensive player, it's for best defensive forward, so offense is part of it....i guess that's the argument and I don't disagree, but the guys winning the award aren't necessarily the best defensive forwards.....for example, I would have voted Zetterberg over Datsyuk in some of those years.

The other angle though, forwards not playing PK aren't necessarily not great defensive players. A lot of coaches won't put his star player (forward) on the PK because the reward doesn't outweigh the risk. Greater chance of injury, but also, player can't really play 30 min a night like a D, so those minutes are taken away from other areas. I think the view is that PK is really a skill that you can teach and with hard work player B can fill that spot just as well as player A, so why put player A in that spot. I'm not making an argument here about why someone should be considered for Selke even if not playing PK, just suggesting this is a reasonable view.

Actually, here's something when it comes to PK...being really good at it doesn't necessarily make you a great defensive player either. It can just be a skill that some guys excel at. I watched more PIT games than normal down the stretch due to what was happening with the games...so lots of PIT, WSH and DET, etc. Rust seems to be one of the top choices on PK and he's pretty good at it....but on balance he seems horrible at defense. This is purely just from watching, not looking at any stats though. One last thing on PK....has anyone done a deep dive to see who plays PK more.....centres or wingers? Positioning in the D zone during PK would actually seem more natural for a winger, but I'm guessing stats don't show that and certainly not something I'd defer to wingers on.....my son is 14 and plays centre and when his team is on PK, he'll start with one of his wingers, they'd never put his two wingers out instead and I'll admit, when they roll through the lines and put two wingers out I cringe......face-offs is a big part of it too though.

Long story short, I agree with you, there are guys that play really great D that will never get credit for it and likely better than Selke winners simply because they aren't producing enough offense to get themselves noticed.

 

[Madap]

I’m really going to miss these Crosby-Ovechkin debates when they retire. I love that they’re still going at it at 36+ years old. Just great careers, both of them.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Actually, here's something when it comes to PK...being really good at it doesn't necessarily make you a great defensive player either. It can just be a skill that some guys excel at. I watched more PIT games than normal down the stretch due to what was happening with the games...so lots of PIT, WSH and DET, etc. Rust seems to be one of the top choices on PK and he's pretty good at it....but on balance he seems horrible at defense. This is purely just from watching, not looking at any stats though. One last thing on PK....has anyone done a deep dive to see who plays PK more.....centres or wingers? Positioning in the D zone during PK would actually seem more natural for a winger, but I'm guessing stats don't show that and certainly not something I'd defer to wingers on.....my son is 14 and plays centre and when his team is on PK, he'll start with one of his wingers, they'd never put his two wingers out instead and I'll admit, when they roll through the lines and put two wingers out I cringe......face-offs is a big part of it too though.

Long story short, I agree with you, there are guys that play really great D that will never get credit for it and likely better than Selke winners simply because they aren't producing enough offense to get themselves noticed.

Same goes for Kuznetsov the past couple years. He is NOT a good defensive player overall but for whatever reason he is effective on the PK in a certain role. -Probably because he still has good IQ, his skating is good, he can change direction and cover ground, and he is a threat on a break away so teams have to respect that.

 

[SkinsFan09]

Ovechkin is the only player in the league who could have 40 assists and get labeled as doing nothing but scoring goals. Now before the usual suspects jump to reply saying "what, do you think he's Adam Oates dishing the puck???!!!" that's not the point. The point is he has contributed to other players goals throughout his career with zero credit.

And no they are not "all rebounds" or he'd be the luckiest player in NHL history to have 700 rebound assists. Even saying that out loud is childish.

 

[Toby91ca]

Ovechkin is the only player in the league who could have 40 assists and get labeled as doing nothing but scoring goals. Now before the usual suspects jump to reply saying "what, do you think he's Adam Oates dishing the puck???!!!" that's not the point. The point is he has contributed to other players goals throughout his career with zero credit.

And no they are not "all rebounds" or he'd be the luckiest player in NHL history to have 700 rebound assists. Even saying that out loud is childish.

He gets credit...if he only had 200 assists in his career, he's be sitting just over 1,000pts and comparisons to Crosby would be laughable. What credit do you want him to get that he hasn't gotten? Who are the players that are getting all kinds of credit for being great playmakers? I don't see much commentary about that....sure, people will be known as great playmakers, but if they don't have more to their came than that....they are good players, but not in the conversation with the greats. Ovechkin is in conversation with the greats, he's not a great playmaker, let's not pretend he is and he isn't getting a negative score there either, so what's the problem?

I’m really going to miss these Crosby-Ovechkin debates when they retire. I love that they’re still going at it at 36+ years old. Just great careers, both of them.

Why would the debates go away?

 

[Madap]

He gets credit...if he only had 200 assists in his career, he's be sitting just over 1,000pts and comparisons to Crosby would be laughable. What credit do you want him to get that he hasn't gotten? Who are the players that are getting all kinds of credit for being great playmakers? I don't see much commentary about that....sure, people will be known as great playmakers, but if they don't have more to their came than that....they are good players, but not in the conversation with the greats. Ovechkin is in conversation with the greats, he's not a great playmaker, let's not pretend he is and he isn't getting a negative score there either, so what's the problem?


Why would the debates go away?

Well maybe not go away. I just meant that it’s cool these guys are still finding new ways to impress and keep the debate going. When they retire it will be the same things repeated over and over forever.

 

[wetcoast]

This is hilarious because the above stats are saying that Crosby's actual AND expected defensive impact has been bad. Yet 3 of the biggest die-hard Pens fans on this site are saying the complete opposite... Shocked.

You are equating that stat with his individual performance rather than looking at other factors like goaltending, team defense ect.

CF% (and their relative placement on their respective teams) backs up the actual eye test of which player was driving play and which player had a bigger defensive impact in a comparative vacuum that's why players, media and most objective fans see what is really there as opposed to a few self interested Ovi backers when these questions come up.

It's amazing how people tend to cherry pick and misuse use advanced stats sometimes around here.

 

[wetcoast]

Ovechkin is the only player in the league who could have 40 assists and get labeled as doing nothing but scoring goals. Now before the usual suspects jump to reply saying "what, do you think he's Adam Oates dishing the puck???!!!" that's not the point. The point is he has contributed to other players goals throughout his career with zero credit.

And no they are not "all rebounds" or he'd be the luckiest player in NHL history to have 700 rebound assists. Even saying that out loud is childish.

I'm not going to bother deconstructing this strawman argument but for reference those 40 assists were good for 67th in the league that year in a tie with 5 other players so it's not really a distraction from the point you are trying to draw your strawman from.

Since the age of 25 so for the last 13 seasons he has been a shot focused type of player and is at best from a seasonal basis in the lower half of all first line players in terms of playmaking.

This is even as he has been used primarily for offensive zone starts and given probably the top 3 PP TOI for any forward consistently over that time period.

He is breaking the goal scoring record sometime in the future in part to this focus and in his peak/prime he was a much more balanced and impactful player.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

 

[SkinsFan09]

I'm not going to bother deconstructing this strawman argument but for reference those 40 assists were good for 67th in the league that year

Good thing my point wasn't that he was an elite / top of the league playmaker.

 

[SkinsFan09]

It’s certainly a pick ‘em. Ovechkin had the best half of play between the two, but I like the all the way through consistent season Crosby has had this year. Ovechkin fell off a cliff in the second half of 2021-2022. I picked Crosby with this one.

This is a reasonable take and what I would probably agree with also.

 

[wetcoast]

Good thing my point wasn't that he was an elite / top of the league playmaker.

No you transferred your strawman from another argument no one brought up his playmaking this thread.

Okay is was this single guy but you didn't feel the need to quote it in an earlier post on this thread and funny have totally skipped over MJ's BS defensive arguments about Crosby which kinda shows the lack of objectivity eh?

Crosby. 36 year old Ovechkin is as one dimensional as they come

 

[BackToTheBasics]

Can't go wrong with both.

I'd take Sid for carrying the pens on his back during their playoff push

Ovechkin's season was frontloaded (Impressive stretch tho) but he kinda fell off at the end

Ovechkin carrying the team at the beginning of the season ensured that he didn't need to put the team on his back at the end of the season because their spot in the playoffs was already secured.

This narrative that Crosby has been consistent all season is also false. He had a 27-game stretch from January 6th to March 12th where he only put up 10 goals and 23 points (0.85 PPG). As a result, the Pens lost 18 out of 27 games and fell way out of playoff contention. Ovechkin also scored at a higher pace excluding his hot start to the season from January 24th to April 24th putting up 21 goals and 32 points in 35 games (0.91 PPG).

 

[molon labe]

I think that Ovi's 50 goals were the most impressive of the stat comparisons. That's your vacuum take.

From there you see he always plays pretty .... one dimensional. Moreso in his 30s than ever. Does he throw a check here and there? Of course. But he conserves energy to straight up plant himself more often than not anymore.

The Pens won and lost almost each game by way Sid this year. I think he takes it for the fact that he carried such a bad/underperforming club from out front. Hard minutes, bad powerplay (so zero PP merching), plenty of points, leading in faceoffs, etc. Those aren't stat intangibles the dude was the Pens. He didn't have force fed powerplay points and 3 minute empty net shifts. Is what it is with those two. Won't take away 50 goals certainly but won't listen to folks trying to proclaim anything that Sid has done to be less than extraordinary to this point.

 

[authentic]

I’m really going to miss these Crosby-Ovechkin debates when they retire. I love that they’re still going at it at 36+ years old. Just great careers, both of them.

Make no mistake, the debates will continue long after they retire.

 

[Sorry]

MJ disappeared from the boards the last couple weeks. Now pops back up on the usual mission. Wonder why?

 

[CanadienShark]

Ovechkin, but it's close.

 

[authentic]

I don't disagree with you there. These days (many, many, many years now), you don't get a sniff at the Selke if you aren't also producing at least beyond a certain threshold offensively. I guess the argument is that you are a forward, you should produce points and if you aren't doing that, it's part of your game that is lacking.....Selke isn't for best defensive player, it's for best defensive forward, so offense is part of it....i guess that's the argument and I don't disagree, but the guys winning the award aren't necessarily the best defensive forwards.....for example, I would have voted Zetterberg over Datsyuk in some of those years.

The other angle though, forwards not playing PK aren't necessarily not great defensive players. A lot of coaches won't put his star player (forward) on the PK because the reward doesn't outweigh the risk. Greater chance of injury, but also, player can't really play 30 min a night like a D, so those minutes are taken away from other areas. I think the view is that PK is really a skill that you can teach and with hard work player B can fill that spot just as well as player A, so why put player A in that spot. I'm not making an argument here about why someone should be considered for Selke even if not playing PK, just suggesting this is a reasonable view.

Actually, here's something when it comes to PK...being really good at it doesn't necessarily make you a great defensive player either. It can just be a skill that some guys excel at. I watched more PIT games than normal down the stretch due to what was happening with the games...so lots of PIT, WSH and DET, etc. Rust seems to be one of the top choices on PK and he's pretty good at it....but on balance he seems horrible at defense. This is purely just from watching, not looking at any stats though. One last thing on PK....has anyone done a deep dive to see who plays PK more.....centres or wingers? Positioning in the D zone during PK would actually seem more natural for a winger, but I'm guessing stats don't show that and certainly not something I'd defer to wingers on.....my son is 14 and plays centre and when his team is on PK, he'll start with one of his wingers, they'd never put his two wingers out instead and I'll admit, when they roll through the lines and put two wingers out I cringe......face-offs is a big part of it too though.

Long story short, I agree with you, there are guys that play really great D that will never get credit for it and likely better than Selke winners simply because they aren't producing enough offense to get themselves noticed.

Crosby has become the most overrated defensive player on this site, even if he is better than Ovechkin there his defensive impact has barely been better if at all throughout a majority of their careers. He mostly plays a very defensively responsible game for an elite point producer but he's never been known for shutting anybody down and his defensive metrics have never been very close to the actual best defensive forwards.

 

[1specter]

Hooray for blatant falsehoods.

I could watch this all day

 

[SkinsFan09]

No you transferred your strawman from another argument no one brought up his playmaking this thread.

Okay is was this single guy but you didn't feel the need to quote it in an earlier post on this thread and funny have totally skipped over MJ's BS defensive arguments about Crosby which kinda shows the lack of objectivity eh?

1. Yeah I didn't want to engage with that poster

2. I also didn't want to engage with MidnightJudges. I have been very complimentary to Crosby on this message board, even calling out Caps fans for delusional posts like Randyne

We are free to engage how we want. I replied to a post that I felt like replying to, it doesn't mean I have to reply to someone else to prove my objectivity.

I think that Ovi's 50 goals were the most impressive of the stat comparisons. That's your vacuum take.

From there you see he always plays pretty .... one dimensional.

He had 90 points not 60, surely he was doing more than just firing away PP one timers. (and for the record, I voted for Crosby because Ovechkin was an MVP candidate through the first week of January and then fell off a cliff as did the rest of the team)

 

[Midnight Judges]

I think that Ovi's 50 goals were the most impressive of the stat comparisons. That's your vacuum take.

From there you see he always plays pretty .... one dimensional.

That's pure gibberish.

Half an assist per game and higher PPG than Crosby while also being better than Crosby defensively isn't one dimensional. And what does that make Crosby - no dimensional?