Best Player In the World

[Epsilon]

It's sad but one off year for Ovechkin and many have been predicting his slip. Many don't consider him to be among the best in the world anymore.

In fact some would put St. Louis, the Sedins ahead of Ovechkin.

I think the Sedins are being vastly overlooked for the past 2 seasons.

I would agree the Sedins get overlooked/undervalued considering their consistency over the past two seasons. I think the reason we are still seeing Crosby and Ovechkin listed for 2011 even though it was a down year for Ovechkin and an injury-plagued one for Crosby is due to consistency over the past several years.

Now if Ovechkin puts up 80 points again over a full season, and Henrik Sedin puts up another 90-100+, I think it's time to re-evaluate things.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Agreed, I would say Malkin should be included for both 2007-08 (where Crosby missed significant time due to injury) and 2008-09 (where Crosby was clearly behind Malkin and Ovechkin during the regular season, and behind Malkin during the playoffs). I'd say it's more like:

2011: Crosby/Ovechkin
2010: Ovechkin/Crosby
2009: Ovechkin/Malkin
2008: Ovechkin/Malkin/Crosby
2007: Crosby/Lidstrom

Lots of equivocating there of course, by having multiple names for each year. But for at least 2008-09 Crosby fell behind as evidenced by Ovechkin and Malkin fighting it out for the Art Ross trophy and the Hart trophy, while Crosby wasn't even in the top 5 of Hart voting.

Once again, making the switch too quickly. Crosby was only very slightly behind Malkin/Ovechkin in PPG in the 08-09 season, and had 2 incredible playoff performances in 08 and 09. Not even close to enough to make him lose his status. Even here on HF, the Crosby vs. Ovechkin polls were all over the place.

 

[livewell68]

This is my attempt to try and mix things up by including defensemen and goalies and forwards and by doing a top 5 instead and I'm going by season to season assessment.

I'm going by stats in the regular season and playoffs combined as well as media and fan perception. I'm starting with the 1990-91 season.

1990-91 : top 5 in no particular order : Lemieux, Gretzky, Hull, Bourque, Belfour
1991-92 : Lemieux, Messier, Roy, Leetch, Gretzky
1992-93 : Lemieux, Roy, Selanne, Belfour, Lafontaine
1993-94 : Gretzky, Fedorov, Leetch, Hasek, Bourque
1994-95 : Lindros, Hasek, Jagr, Coffey, Chelios HM Bondra
1995-96 : Lemieux, Jagr, Lindros, Sakic, Fedorov-Forsberg (tied) this was the year of the forwards
1996-97 : Lemieux, Hasek, Jagr, Selanne, Karyia
1997-98 : Hasek, Jagr, Kariya, Forsberg, Gretzky, HM Bure, Selanne, Lindros, Tkatchuk
1998-99 : Jagr, Hasek, MacInnis, Selanne, Cujo
1999-00 : Jagr, Bure, Pronger, Kolzig, Stevens HM Turek, Cujo, Blake
2000-01 : Sakic, Lemieux, Jagr, Lidstrom, Hasek
2001-02 : Iginla, Naslund, Lidstrom, Sundin, Theodore HM Bertuzzi, Demitra, Hasek, Jagr, Roy
2002-03 : Forsberg, Bertuzzi, Brodeur, Lidstrom, Naslund HM Hejduk, MacInnis, Hatcher, Thornton, Turco
2003-04 : St. Louis, Sakic, Kovalchuk, Brodeur, Niedermayer HM Chara, Naslund, Luongo, Iginla, Pronger

I did it up until the lockout.

 

[begbeee]

This is my attempt to try and mix things up by including defensemen and goalies and forwards and by doing a top 5 instead and I'm going by season to season assessment.

I'm going by stats in the regular season and playoffs combined as well as media and fan perception. I'm starting with the 1990-91 season.

1990-91 : top 5 in no particular order : Lemieux, Gretzky, Hull, Bourque, Belfour
1991-92 : Lemieux, Messier, Roy, Leetch, Gretzky
1992-93 : Lemieux, Roy, Selanne, Belfour, Lafontaine
1993-94 : Gretzky, Fedorov, Leetch, Hasek, Bourque
1994-95 : Lindros, Hasek, Jagr, Coffey, Chelios HM Bondra
1995-96 : Lemieux, Jagr, Lindros, Sakic, Fedorov-Forsberg (tied) this was the year of the forwards
1996-97 : Lemieux, Hasek, Jagr, Selanne, Karyia
1997-98 : Hasek, Jagr, Kariya, Forsberg, Gretzky, HM Bure, Selanne, Lindros, Tkatchuk
1998-99 : Jagr, Hasek, MacInnis, Selanne, Cujo
1999-00 : Jagr, Bure, Pronger, Kolzig, Stevens HM Turek, Cujo, Blake
2000-01 : Sakic, Lemieux, Jagr, Lidstrom, Hasek
2001-02 : Iginla, Naslund, Lidstrom, Sundin, Theodore HM Bertuzzi, Demitra, Hasek, Jagr, Roy
2002-03 : Forsberg, Bertuzzi, Brodeur, Lidstrom, Naslund HM Hejduk, MacInnis, Hatcher, Thornton, Turco
2003-04 : St. Louis, Sakic, Kovalchuk, Brodeur, Niedermayer HM Chara, Naslund, Luongo, Iginla, Pronger

I did it up until the lockout.

Bondra was not even in a discussion for best player in the world at any time of his career and that's being said I am a big fan of him. Best sniper? Probably yes. Best forward? Maybe...no! Best player in the world?! WTF?!

 

[livewell68]

Bondra was not even in a discussion for best player in the world at any time of his career and that's being said I am a big fan of him. Best sniper? Probably yes. Best forward? Maybe...no! Best player in the world?! WTF?!

He led the league in goals during the lockout shortened season (34 goals) as well as the 1997-98 season (52 goals) . He was a dynamite player in the 90's and some would say he was one of the most underrated players of that era playing in a defensive system with the Capitals.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

He led the league in goals during the lockout shortened season (34 goals) as well as the 1997-98 season (52 goals) . He was a dynamite player in the 90's and some would say he was one of the most underrated players of that era playing in a defensive system with the Capitals.

Bondra not only was never a first or second team all star, he never even finished 3rd in All Star voting for the right wing position.

 

[livewell68]

Bondra not only was never a first or second team all star, he never even finished 3rd in All Star voting for the right wing position.

The 1994-2001 period was very deep on the Right Wing position with the likes of Jagr, Bure and Selanne playing from that position.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

The lockout season is tough, but don't see Lidstrom as clearly the best player of 2005 and 2006. He only scored 38 points in 2004 and wasn't even an All-Star, and he didn't play in Europe in 2005. There's a number of players who could be considered for 2005, but 2006 thinned the herd a bit:

2005- ??? (Sakic, Forsberg, Jagr, Thornton, Lidstrom)

interesting thread.

re: the lockout season, if you include it i think the answer is forsberg. as i recall, he was the consensus art ross favourite going into the '05-'06 season.

if you asked someone during the lockout, they might say that thornton has the potential to be the best in the world at the other end of the lockout, but he hadn't proven it yet.

at the same time, people were predicting sakic was going to fall off a cliff, which is why it was so surprising he put up 100 in the post-lockout season.

lidstrom at various points in the last ten years has certainly been the best player in the world. i don't know that he was very often acknowledged as such, especially not in the popular imagination. definitely not mid-decade though.

and jagr, nobody saw his rejuvenation post-lockout coming. after those washington years, he simply was not in the argument in '04-'05.

if you're going to give it out, i really don't think it could be anyone but forsberg, even though he always came with the "if he's healthy" disclaimer.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I would agree the Sedins get overlooked/undervalued considering their consistency over the past two seasons. I think the reason we are still seeing Crosby and Ovechkin listed for 2011 even though it was a down year for Ovechkin and an injury-plagued one for Crosby is due to consistency over the past several years.

Now if Ovechkin puts up 80 points again over a full season, and Henrik Sedin puts up another 90-100+, I think it's time to re-evaluate things.

If you had your choice of any player for this coming season (one season only), would anyone really take either Henrik or Daniel with the first choice? I don't think so. It's either Crosby or Ovechkin (when healthy)

 

[livewell68]

interesting thread.

re: the lockout season, if you include it i think the answer is forsberg. as i recall, he was the consensus art ross favourite going into the '05-'06 season.

if you asked someone during the lockout, they might say that thornton has the potential to be the best in the world at the other end of the lockout, but he hadn't proven it yet.

at the same time, people were predicting sakic was going to fall off a cliff, which is why it was so surprising he put up 100 in the post-lockout season.

lidstrom at various points in the last ten years has certainly been the best player in the world. i don't know that he was very often acknowledged as such, especially not in the popular imagination. definitely not mid-decade though.

and jagr, nobody saw his rejuvenation post-lockout coming. after those washington years, he simply was not in the argument in '04-'05.

if you're going to give it out, i really don't think it could be anyone but forsberg, even though he always came with the "if he's healthy" disclaimer.

I don't agree with the Forsberg notion.

I think going into the 2004-05 season, many saw Kovalchuk and Thornton taking the next step and becoming heavy Art Ross, Hart favourites.

In Thornton's case, this was true as he won both awards in 2005-06. Kovalchuk had a 52 goal season in 2005-06.

Forsberg only managed to play 60 games and put up a respectable 75 Pts but he was clearly done as being a legitimate threat to being the best player in the world.

When you only manage to play half-three quarter seasons back-to-back then I don't think you deserve that title.

 

[livewell68]

If you had your choice of any player for this coming season (one season only), would anyone really take either Henrik or Daniel with the first choice? I don't think so. It's either Crosby or Ovechkin (when healthy)

I just don't think the Sedins have any star power but in regards to being the best players, they have been for the last 2 seasons.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I just don't think the Sedins have any star power but in regards to being the best players, they have been for the last 2 seasons.

Not when the most has been on the line

EDIT: Even if you got to take them as a pair...would you really choose that tandem over Crosby and Ovechkin as a pair???

 

[livewell68]

Not when the most has been on the line

EDIT: Even if you got to take them as a pair...would you really choose that tandem over Crosby and Ovechkin as a pair???

If anything, the Sedins got to the Finals while Ovechkin bowed out in the second round again and Crosby was trying to unscramble his brain.

Only kidding about the Crosby comment.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

If anything, the Sedins got to the Finals while Ovechkin bowed out in the second round again and Crosby was trying to unscramble his brain.

Only kidding about the Crosby comment.

Is that a yes?

 

[livewell68]

Not when the most has been on the line

EDIT: Even if you got to take them as a pair...would you really choose that tandem over Crosby and Ovechkin as a pair???

I personally wouldn't but I'm sure some would. They play a team first game and they have been very consistent and durable (mainly due to their style of game) while Ovechkin has had conditioning/motivation issues recently and Crosby's status is uncertain.

I guess I'm just arguing the fact that putting Crosby and Ovechkin for the last 4 seasons is not as obvious as you think.

Many have also thrown in Datsyuk's and St. Louis' names into the mix recently.

That is why I had attempted to do a top 5 list.

That way guys like Malkin, St. Louis, Lidstrom, Chara, the Sedins, Stamkos would get their fair credit.

I think in Crosby's case it has been more the media's doing and attempts to over-hype him and over-saturate him that people think he's the consensus best. He had a great half season, prior to that season he has been overshadowed by Ovechkin and Henrik Sedin in 2009-10, Malkin and Ovechkin in 2007-08 and 2008-09 and 2006-07 being the only clear season in which Crosby was the consensus best player in the world.

If anything Ovechkin has been the consistent best player in the world for the past 4 seasons.

 

[vecens24]

Honestly, I think that Crosby should be the only one for this year. Ovechkin had a down year, and Crosby prior to injury was having the best season of his career, and possibly the best season since the clutch and grab era began. So despite him missing the last half of the season, I think he's unquestionably the best NHLer right now.

If you want an example of how much people think Crosby is far and away the best, 76% of people voted for Crosby on the "HFBoards Top 90 Forwards" on the polls section. 3/4 is a crazy high majority....

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I don't agree with the Forsberg notion.

I think going into the 2004-05 season, many saw Kovalchuk and Thornton taking the next step and becoming heavy Art Ross, Hart favourites.

In Thornton's case, this was true as he won both awards in 2005-06. Kovalchuk had a 52 goal season in 2005-06.

Forsberg only managed to play 60 games and put up a respectable 75 Pts but he was clearly done as being a legitimate threat to being the best player in the world.

When you only manage to play half-three quarter seasons back-to-back then I don't think you deserve that title.

i think you're looking at what happened AFTERWARDS to justify what you want to say about perceptions DURING the aborted '04-'05 season.

AFTER the '05-'06 season, forsberg may still have been considered by some as a top 10 player in the world, but he was no longer in the contention for #1. BEFORE the '05-'06 season, almost all commentators were picking forsberg for the art ross and hart. people thought the year off was going to allow his foot to heal. people were picking simon gagne to score 50 goals (which he almost did anyway).

as for thornton and kovalchuk, like i said, of course people were saying those guys might take the next step and contend for the art ross, richard, etc. but if we're talking about a guy's reputation as the best player in the world, they simply weren't there yet. forsberg had showed in '03-'04 that when he was on the ice, nobody could keep up with him points-wise. in fact, it wasn't remotely close-- http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...at=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points_per_game

and don't forget also that at the time, MSL's hart and art ross were considered tainted (much like the sedins') because forsberg was out for most of the year.

 

[livewell68]

Honestly, I think that Crosby should be the only one for this year. Ovechkin had a down year, and Crosby prior to injury was having the best season of his career, and possibly the best season since the clutch and grab era began. So despite him missing the last half of the season, I think he's unquestionably the best NHLer right now.

If you want an example of how much people think Crosby is far and away the best, 76% of people voted for Crosby on the "HFBoards Top 90 Forwards" on the polls section. 3/4 is a crazy high majority....

This is a bit exagerated. The best season since the clutch and grab began (post-lockout is not even clutch and grab) is Jagr's 1998-99 season in which he had 127 Pts and while the GPG (goals per game of the NHL) was 5.27. Almost 0.40 less goals than 2010-11.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Honestly, I think that Crosby should be the only one for this year. Ovechkin had a down year, and Crosby prior to injury was having the best season of his career, and possibly the best season since the clutch and grab era began. So despite him missing the last half of the season, I think he's unquestionably the best NHLer right now.

If you want an example of how much people think Crosby is far and away the best, 76% of people voted for Crosby on the "HFBoards Top 90 Forwards" on the polls section. 3/4 is a crazy high majority....

I originally had him by himself this year, still not sure which is best. Might be best to let time tell. If Crosby dominates this coming season like he did last season then we'll probably end up calling 2010 the transition year and 2011 the start of Crosby's reign alone. If they are back to even this season or if Ovechkin is ahead, then it would make more sense to list them both for the entire time period.

 

[vecens24]

This is a bit exagerated. The best season since the clutch and grab began (post-lockout is not even clutch and grab) is Jagr's 1998-99 season in which he had 127 Pts and while the GPG (goals per game of the NHL) was 5.27. Almost 0.40 less goals than 2010-11.

My point was that he was on pace for 132 points, which is the highest point total since 1996. Yeah the game is different now I'm saying it would have been arguable considering the Pens would have been a top 3 seed in the East and had a legit shot at the title, something the Pens with that Jagr didn't really have considering IIRC they were either a 7 or 8 seed.

 

[Theokritos]

The 1994-2001 period was very deep on the Right Wing position with the likes of Jagr, Bure and Selanne playing from that position.

If Bondra would've been among the very best players of the world, he still would've made at least the 2nd All-Star Team once or twice. But no, he was never better then 4th in the voting.

94-95: Jágr, Fleury, Hull, Bondra
95-96: Jágr, Mogilnyj, Selänne, Fleury, Bondra
96-97: Selänne, Jágr, Pálffy, Amonte, Bondra
97-98: Jágr, Selänne, Bure, Bondra
98-99: Jágr, Bure, Kovalyov, Pálffy, Guerin, Bondra
...

How did one of the world's top players manage to end up behind the likes of Fleury, Amonte and Guerin time after time? Good players, but not among the best ca 5 players overall for sure.
Bondra really wasn't good enough to receive a HM in this debate. If anyone was a victim of the depth on LW, it's not Bondra but Pálffy - and he's not even mentioned in your list (probably with justification).

 

[livewell68]

My point was that he was on pace for 132 points, which is the highest point total since 1996. Yeah the game is different now I'm saying it would have been arguable considering the Pens would have been a top 3 seed in the East and had a legit shot at the title, something the Pens with that Jagr didn't really have considering IIRC they were either a 7 or 8 seed.

Point taken but some players have enjoyed similar if not better stretches than Crosby. We will never know how well Crosby would have finished the season but even a slight would have not been out of the question and I personally don't think he would have kept his 132 Pts pace.

I think he would have ended up with about 110-125 Pts.

In 1999-00 Jagr started the season off with 71 Pts in 39 games (better pace than Crosby) only to get injured and finish the season with 25 Pts in his last 24 games. Injuries are a part of hockey.

Crosby's first half was not that much impressive per say (taking scoring overall in the league into consideration) than Forsberg's 55 Pts in 39 games in in 2003-04 or Thornton's second half in 2005-06 or even Jagr's first half in 2005-06.

What I'm trying to say is that half a season is not enough to say for sure.

 

[danincanada]

There is generally too much focus on the regular season in these kinds of debates in my opinion. The playoffs is what separates the men from the boys and even though it's not always fair to hold that against a great player on a not so great team that doesn't advance, it should be factored in more than a great regular season.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[JFA87-66-99]

I like to see you guys take this back a bit further. I'd like to see what you guys think from 1900-1910. I read that Hod Stuart, Frank McGee and Tommy Phillips were considered the best in the world during this era.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

I like to see you guys take this back a bit further. I'd like to see what you guys think from 1900-1910. I read that Hod Stuart, Frank McGee and Tommy Phillips were considered the best in the world during this era.

I'll try to post something later today about the early era. These three would certainly be in the running for some seasons.