Bertuzzi and the CBA

[Bicycle Repairman]

How is it that the league (represented by Disciplinarian Czar Colin Campbell) and Todd Bertuzzi (no doubt with a NHLPA representative in tow) can meet to discuss lifting of a suspension in the abscence of a Collective Bargaining Agreement (of which said punishment is contained in a sub-clause)?

Isn't all sundry league business shut down pending the outcome of a lockout?

Well apparently, it's okay to meet as long as both sides agree to meet.

And what does this little latest news development have to say about the NHL's current policy regarding on-ice violence? Same old, same old?

No changes to the CBA to prevent this from happening again? No changes to clean up the incessant and gratuitous violence that currently impedes it growth?

This is the NewNHLâ„¢?

Click to read more...

 

[Morbo]

Why didn't you call this "Superlative Bertuzzi"?

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

How is it that the league (represented by Disciplinarian Czar Colin Campbell) and Todd Bertuzzi (no doubt with a NHLPA representative in tow) can meet to discuss lifting of a suspension in the abscence of a Collective Bargaining Agreement (of which said punishment is contained in a sub-clause)?

Isn't all sundry league business shut down pending the outcome of a lockout?

Frankly, this is a very smart move on the NHL's part. They will pass judgement on Bertuzzi and re-instate him meaning he is free to seek employment elsewhere. The NHLPA will not be able to say that the NHL is preventing one of their own from seeking gainful employment. Takes another potential roadblock off the table IMO should the NHL look for an impasse.

 

[Bicycle Repairman]

Frankly, this is a very smart move on the NHL's part. They will pass judgement on Bertuzzi and re-instate him meaning he is free to seek employment elsewhere. The NHLPA will not be able to say that the NHL is preventing one of their own from seeking gainful employment. Takes another potential roadblock off the table IMO should the NHL look for an impasse.

It's saying that the league is more concerned about the fate of one big dumb ape than they are about seeking a resolution to larger issues.

Unless of course, they want to expedite Bertuzzi's defacto permanent ouster from the NHL by allowing European teams to sign him.

Either way, it's sweeping the issue of violence in the sport under the carpet.

 

[BAuldie]

It's saying that the league is more concerned about the fate of one big dumb ape than they are about seeking a resolution to larger issues.

Unless of course, they want to expedite Bertuzzi's defacto permanent ouster from the NHL by allowing European teams to sign him.

Either way, it's sweeping the issue of violence in the sport under the carpet.

I don't think the league cares about the fate of one big dumb ape as you refer to him.. As stated it would be a PR move.. Bertuzzi has already lost a large chunk of change and if the NHL continued to levy the suspension on him that would stop him from working elsewhere it would look rather bad and give the NHLPA ammunition.

 

[Johnnybegood13]

It's saying that the league is more concerned about the fate of one big dumb ape than they are about seeking a resolution to larger issues.

Last time i checked THEY ARE seeking a resolution to the big issue...they just don't have a dance partner!

 

[Pangolin]

I think it's more because Bertuzzi has now gone through the legal process and the law has decided on his punishment.
If the crown is done with Bertuzzi, the NHL has no reason to bar him from work.

 

[GKJ]

Last time i checked THEY ARE seeking a resolution to the big issue...they just don't have a dance partner!

Other way around.

 

[Bicycle Repairman]

I think it's more because Bertuzzi has now gone through the legal process and the law has decided on his punishment.
If the crown is done with Bertuzzi, the NHL has no reason to bar him from work.

True, but it appears they are dusting off the old CBA in order to deal with it. That, in a nutshell, is my issue.

Also, don't forget the IIHF has a say in this. They don't meet again until -- conicidentally -- January 14th. What a momentous day, it appears.

 

[Wetcoaster]

How is it that the league (represented by Disciplinarian Czar Colin Campbell) and Todd Bertuzzi (no doubt with a NHLPA representative in tow) can meet to discuss lifting of a suspension in the abscence of a Collective Bargaining Agreement (of which said punishment is contained in a sub-clause)?

Isn't all sundry league business shut down pending the outcome of a lockout?

Well apparently, it's okay to meet as long as both sides agree to meet.

And what does this little latest news development have to say about the NHL's current policy regarding on-ice violence? Same old, same old?

No changes to the CBA to prevent this from happening again? No changes to clean up the incessant and gratuitous violence that currently impedes it growth?

This is the NewNHLâ„¢?

The CBA continues for many purposes until replaced by a new agreement. Basic labour law principles.

 

[Wetcoaster]

I think it's more because Bertuzzi has now gone through the legal process and the law has decided on his punishment.
If the crown is done with Bertuzzi, the NHL has no reason to bar him from work.

The NHL can continue bar him at the discretion of the Commissioner. His suspension was indefinite so all Bettman has to say is that Bertuzzi's application is premature (as he said when Burkie tried to get Bertuzzi reinstated before he left the 'Nucks) or he can simply continue the suspension. One of the conditions under which Bertuzzi was suspended depended upon Moore's recovery - according to court documents Moore has not recovered.

"No final determination on the total duration of Mr. Bertuzzi's suspension has yet been made. Mr. Bertuzzi will be required to meet with Commissioner Bettman prior to the start of training camp for the 2004-05 season, at which point Mr. Bertuzzi's eligibility will be reviewed in light of all the available facts at that time, including Mr. Moore's physical status and the progression of his recovery."

 

[thinkwild]

Bertuzzi deserves punishment, but at some point, continuing the suspension might be seens as verging on vindictive denial of livliehood. At this point, I would of suspected most reasonable people would have determined the suspension to have run its course. Of course Moore still isnt skating, however, basing suspension on length of injury caused is a slippery slope.

Its not like it would be a very time consuming exercise. All the NHL lawyers are being paid during the lockout. Addressing this would seem their normal duties. I think a decision is warranted. Of course, asking for this decision at this muscle flexing point in time of labour negotiation would be pretty risky on Berts part. Almost asking them to be vindictive.

 

[Wetcoaster]

Bertuzzi deserves punishment, but at some point, continuing the suspension might be seens as verging on vindictive denial of livliehood. At this point, I would of suspected most reasonable people would have determined the suspension to have run its course. Of course Moore still isnt skating, however, basing suspension on length of injury caused is a slippery slope.

Its not like it would be a very time consuming exercise. All the NHL lawyers are being paid during the lockout. Addressing this would seem their normal duties. I think a decision is warranted. Of course, asking for this decision at this muscle flexing point in time of labour negotiation would be pretty risky on Berts part. Almost asking them to be vindictive.

As opposed to Bertuzzi vindictively ending another player's career?

For over a decade the CBA clauses and exhibits dealing with supplementary discipline have mandated that the injury be considered - the NHL finally seems to be applying the provison:

Factors In Determining Supplementary Discipline

In deciding on supplementary discipline, the following factors
will be taken into account:

a) The type of conduct involved: conduct outside of NHL
rules; excessive force in contact otherwise permitted by NHL
rules; and careless or accidental conduct. Players are
responsible for the consequences of their actions.

b) Injury to the opposing player(s) involved in the
incident.

c) The status of the offender, and specifically whether he
is a first time or repeat offender. Players who repeatedly
violate NHL rules will be more severely punished for each
violation.

d) The situation of the game in which the incident
occurred: late in the game, lopsided score, prior events in the
game.

e) Such other factors as may be appropriate in the
circumstances.

The BC courts have already ruled that they will not interfere with the Commissioner's discretion in imposing suspensions under such terms as he believes relevant. This was decided in the wake of the Quinngate affair when Quinn challenged his suspension by Ziegler for conduct prejudicial to the NHL in BC Supreme Court when he took a $100,000 under the table payment from the canucks while still the coach of division rival LA. Quinn lost.

 

[vanlady]

The NHL can continue bar him at the discretion of the Commissioner. His suspension was indefinite so all Bettman has to say is that Bertuzzi's application is premature (as he said when Burkie tried to get Bertuzzi reinstated before he left the 'Nucks) or he can simply continue the suspension. One of the conditions under which Bertuzzi was suspended depended upon Moore's recovery - according to court documents Moore has not recovered.

Where in Judge Weitzels decision does it say that Moore has not recovered? It does say that prognosis when he would return to the NHL is as yet uncertain. Though the decision is worded very carefully, you can't miss the fact that Judge Weitzel put more stock in the diagnosis of the attending physicians in Vancouver. Judge Weitzel also is very clear in the fact that he feels all the injuries Moore is still suffering from are "subjective". Let me quote the decision for you.

[25] The specific injuries then addressed were twofold. The cervical spine injury, that is the injury to the neck that I have adverted to, was considered likely to be healed 90 percent within six weeks and 100 percent healed within twelve weeks. Perhaps it took a little bit longer than that, but the prognosis is that the recovery with respect to those cervical spine injuries has been fairly successful. What has been more troublesome is the neurological effects which seem to have flowed from the blow and the resultant post-concussion syndromes.

[26] When Mr. Moore was attended to by the treating neurologist in Vancouver, it was that doctor's opinion that the concussion was considered to be at the minor end of the spectrum and that it was the opinion of that treating neurologist that Mr. Moore recovered extremely well in the days immediately following.

 

[thinkwild]

As opposed to Bertuzzi vindictively ending another player's career?

Not a great move by Bert. And one deserving of harsh punishment as being unacceptable. However, i cant help but feel the entire hockey environment surrounding Bertuzzi at the time is also somewhat culpable. In a general way, he was doing what was expected of him. He highly improperly crossed the line, but he was also pushed to dance on it. I think there are extenuating circumstances and some reflection by the NHL due as well.

For over a decade the CBA clauses and exhibits dealing with supplementary discipline have mandated that the injury be considered - the NHL finally seems to be applying the provison:



The BC courts have already ruled that they will not interfere with the Commissioner's discretion in imposing suspensions under such terms as he believes relevant. This was decided in the wake of the Quinngate affair when Quinn challenged his suspension by Ziegler for conduct prejudicial to the NHL in BC Supreme Court when he took a $100,000 under the table payment from the canucks while still the coach of division rival LA. Quinn lost.

I agree that an action that caused a serious injury may get more punishment than one that attempted it. I was more thinking along the lines of the length of the injury as weighting it. What if he is a slow healer, was already injured there, didnt get proper medical advice, etc. Moore suffered a serious injury and that should be taken into consideration. But that it took 2 years instead of one year to heal from it shouldnt necessarily increase the fine. Along the lines of saying, well Moore still isnt healed yet, so Bert cant be re-instated. That thinking seems a slippery slope to me.

But, determining that Berts suspension should carry through this season would also be acceptable. That seems a fair power for the commisioner to wield. As long as he proves to wield it wisely and not vindictively.

 

[Wetcoaster]

Where in Judge Weitzels decision does it say that Moore has not recovered? It does say that prognosis when he would return to the NHL is as yet uncertain. Though the decision is worded very carefully, you can't miss the fact that Judge Weitzel put more stock in the diagnosis of the attending physicians in Vancouver. Judge Weitzel also is very clear in the fact that he feels all the injuries Moore is still suffering from are "subjective". Let me quote the decision for you.

[25] The specific injuries then addressed were twofold. The cervical spine injury, that is the injury to the neck that I have adverted to, was considered likely to be healed 90 percent within six weeks and 100 percent healed within twelve weeks. Perhaps it took a little bit longer than that, but the prognosis is that the recovery with respect to those cervical spine injuries has been fairly successful. What has been more troublesome is the neurological effects which seem to have flowed from the blow and the resultant post-concussion syndromes.

[26] When Mr. Moore was attended to by the treating neurologist in Vancouver, it was that doctor's opinion that the concussion was considered to be at the minor end of the spectrum and that it was the opinion of that treating neurologist that Mr. Moore recovered extremely well in the days immediately following.

Considering that Dr. Marcel Dvorak and Dr. Brian Kwon (spinal specialists) and Dr. Phil Teal (neurologist) of VGH stressed on several ocassions during the press conference that their comments and reports were only a preliminary diagnosis (a third fractured vertebrae was found on subsequent examination in Denver) and that they were basing his prognosis on like cases there seems to be little validity in putting the greatest weight on those preliminary reports. Judges are often wrong - that is why they are overturned on appeal.

The judge also noted:

...Dr. Adrian Upton, who has been consulted by Mr. Moore, has a less optimistic prognosis of the progress of Mr. Moore. His concerns seem to be based upon the fact that there has not been a complete recovery within the seven to eight months since the injury, and in his opinion that may raise the prospect of some other factors going on with Mr. Moore. Those potential conditions are not ones that could be disclosed by the traditional neurological diagnostic techniques such as the MIR. It is anticipated that Mr. Moore will continue in his rehabilitation and will continue to receive top level medical attention. It is also clear that at this juncture Mr. Moore has not returned to playing hockey at any level, and the prognosis of when he may be able to return is as yet uncertain.

 

[vanlady]

Considering that Dr. Marcel Dvorak and Dr. Brian Kwon (spinal specialists) and Dr. Phil Teal (neurologist) of VGH stressed on several ocassions during the press conference that their comments and reports were only a preliminary diagnosis (a third fractured vertebrae was found on subsequent examination in Denver) and that they were basing his prognosis on like cases there seems to be little validity in putting the greatest weight on those preliminary reports. Judges are often wrong - that is why they are overturned on appeal.

The judge also noted:

So now we are too take the press conference held 2 days after the incedent as the final medical opinion submitted to the Crown? Not likely, the final prognosis at the end of Moore's 2 week stay at VGH is more likely what he is basing his opinion.

As for Adrian Upton, come on now, he is a professional witness. Oh and Adrian Upton's specialty is electrical impulses in the brain, not brain injury. That would be Karen Johnstone, you figure since Moore went to McGill for testing that it would be Dr Johnstone the worlds leading authority in hockey head injury that would be testifying instead of Dr. Upton the guy who is testing magnetic waves on the brains of headache patients.

 

[Wetcoaster]

So now we are too take the press conference held 2 days after the incedent as the final medical opinion submitted to the Crown? Not likely, the final prognosis at the end of Moore's 2 week stay at VGH is more likely what he is basing his opinion.

As for Adrian Upton, come on now, he is a professional witness. Oh and Adrian Upton's specialty is electrical impulses in the brain, not brain injury. That would be Karen Johnstone, you figure since Moore went to McGill for testing that it would be Dr Johnstone the worlds leading authority in hockey head injury that would be testifying instead of Dr. Upton the guy who is testing magnetic waves on the brains of headache patients.

Not only unlikely but impossible since Moore did not spend two weeks in VGH. The press conference was held 4 days after the incident and IIRC he was transferred from VGH to Denver two days later. His hospital stay in Vancouver was less than one week. He was released from hospital in Denver on 22 March 2004.

 

[vanlady]

Not only unlikely but impossible since Moore did not spend two weeks in VGH. The press conference was held 4 days after the incident and IIRC he was transferred from VGH to Denver two days later. His hospital stay in Vancouver was less than one week. He was released from hospital in Denver on 22 March 2004.

What I should have said was Moore spent 2 weeks in hospital. You are correct hea actually only spent one week in VGH. Actually the press conference and press release are both dated Mar 10. He was later transfered Mar 14 or 15 I have seen conflicting reports here. Likely the judge is basing his opinion on all medical reports as of the date of release, not what is in the media as you are. Again why if Steve Moore was assessed in Montreal, why isn't Karen Johnstone testifying?

 

[Wetcoaster]

What I should have said was Moore spent 2 weeks in hospital. You are correct hea actually only spent one week in VGH. Actually the press conference and press release are both dated Mar 10. He was later transfered Mar 14 or 15 I have seen conflicting reports here. Likely the judge is basing his opinion on all medical reports as of the date of release, not what is in the media as you are. Again why if Steve Moore was assessed in Montreal, why isn't Karen Johnstone testifying?

Maybe because it was not much of an issue? Any testimony will come during a civil case if it is filed.

 

[Hasbro]

I imagine the league will pocket veto reinstating Bertuzzi and plead lockout if there's any stink about not doing anything. I'm sure Bettman would rather duck the contraversey especialy now.

 

[sabresfan65]

I would think that Moore would want Bert working so that he as an income to sue for if his career is indeed over. Getting a piece of his "do you want fries with that" salary just doesn't seem to be the same as his $5 million plus salary in the NHL.