Player Discussion: Ben Chiarot

Ducky10

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So true -
I get a kick out of how $1.5M D men get no love anywhere -
I wish we could find a bunch of cheap Dmen that play like JM.
Instead we have your 3rd pairing guys that make mistakes and get called out every night for not being 1st pairing good.
3rd pairing guys that get called out for not being 1st pairing good? Wha?

3rd pairing guys get called out for not pulling their weight relative to their level of responsibility. It's not like their mistakes are coming against 6-8 million dollar players.

Yeah, Chiarot's a deal, he's playing above his pay grade right now, largely due to Buff. That still doesn't make him a top 4 D man, he's just all we have right now. He's improved his game from last year, it still is what it is though.
 
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garret9

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Eye test reads differently. Buff's been having the best season of his career at 33 years old playing primarily with Ben. As long as they stay together I like what Ben brings. And I was a huge detractor earlier on, similar to Tanev. Chiarot and Tanev are servicable NHLers now, when once I thought they were filler.

Your eyetest may... others do not.

Numbers match only one side.
 
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LowLefty

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3rd pairing guys that get called out for not being 1st pairing good? Wha?

3rd pairing guys get called out for not pulling their weight relative to their level of responsibility. It's not like their mistakes are coming against 6-8 million dollar players.

Yeah, Chiarot's a deal, he's playing above his pay grade right now, largely due to Buff. That still doesn't make him a top 4 D man, he's just all we have right now. He's improved his game from last year, it still is what it is though.

Chiarot's been called out pretty much his whole career - my comping 3rd pair guys to first was an intentional exaggeration.
We do the same with our 4th line forwards - they get called out like they should be playing at a different level despite their lack of experience at this level.
Hey, maybe they should but I don't like doing it

I know I'm a little off topic but I try to cut these guy some slack and avoid coming down too hard on the low rent players.
A couple of my favorite Jets are the guys that grind it out most nights.

Regardles, it's good to see Chiarot playing some of his best hockey
 
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garret9

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So true -
I get a kick out of how $1.5M D men get no love anywhere -
I wish we could find a bunch of cheap Dmen that play like JM.
Instead we have your 3rd pairing guys that make mistakes and get called out every night for not being 1st pairing good.

I think it's more that he's not 3rd pairing good.

31 teams, 2 defenders per pair per team, 62 first pair, 124 top 4...
Therefore, ranking between 125-186 makes "third pair capable" and 155 is "average" for third pair.

At even strength, Ben Chiarot ranks:
Expected Goals +/- per hour (adjusted for usage): 205
Corsi +/- per hour (adjusted for usage): 225
GAR: 210
 
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mazmin

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I think it's more that he's not 3rd pairing good.

31 teams, 2 defenders per pair per team, 62 first pair, 124 top 4...
Therefore, ranking between 125-186 makes "third pair capable" and 155 is "average" for third pair.

At even strength, Ben Chiarot ranks:
Expected Goals +/- per hour (adjusted for usage): 205
Corsi +/- per hour (adjusted for usage): 225
GAR (minimum of 50 mins played): 210

I'm curious. Where does he stack up in his last 25 games?
 

LowLefty

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I think it's more that he's not 3rd pairing good.

31 teams, 2 defenders per pair per team, 62 first pair, 124 top 4...
Therefore, ranking between 125-186 makes "third pair capable" and 155 is "average" for third pair.

At even strength, Ben Chiarot ranks:
Expected Goals +/- per hour (adjusted for usage): 205
Corsi +/- per hour (adjusted for usage): 225
GAR (minimum of 50 mins played): 210

Told you he was good

Edit -
I know he isn't very good - but watching him play, especially recently, I didn't expect his numbers to be that bad.
 
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BullLund

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Dec 28, 2017
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I WONDER WHY

Because he's not very good. And because he doesn't match up well with players who don't play "his style". Buff is also a very physical guy and has a similar line of thinking, so Chiarot is more comfortable playing with him. Of course, Buff also has a high enough skill level to carry him.

He's a guy who will likely stay cheap, and Jets are going to need some cheap guys to fill the roster, once they start locking up those big contracts.

Without Buff though, Chiarot is pretty much useless. I don't mind him as a cheap option as long as he stays with Buff.
 

Maukkis

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Because he's not very good. And because he doesn't match up well with players who don't play "his style". Buff is also a very physical guy and has a similar line of thinking, so Chiarot is more comfortable playing with him. Of course, Buff also has a high enough skill level to carry him.

He's a guy who will likely stay cheap, and Jets are going to need some cheap guys to fill the roster, once they start locking up those big contracts.

Without Buff though, Chiarot is pretty much useless. I don't mind him as a cheap option as long as he stays with Buff.
That is the saving grace, I think. Even if Chiarot-Buff is basically entirely carried by 33, it works and there is familiarity. Chiarot probably acknowledges his limitations and knows what it is like to play with Buff.

He's no Enstrom, or even another good defenseman, but I really don't think the alternatives we have would be any better.

I really hope we address this LHD issue soon.
 

voyageur

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It's pretty weak...
Screen-Shot-2018-12-17-at-11-08-14-AM.png


Chiarot and Morrow both in the bottom 50 this season for Expected Goals Plus Minus per hour and Corsi Plus Minus per hour when adjusting for usage (RAPM). Kulikov isn't much better.

I am curious about this chart. I wish you would explain your statistics. Chiarot's are particularly polarizing, in this chart. I would be curious how Chiarot and Buff compare with Enstrom and Buff in both Corsi and actual results. Because it seems while Enstrom was efficient in Corsi, with passes that led to zone entries, and shots, Enstrom could not defend the front of his net like Chiarot, which made his advanced stats shinier than the results.
As you know I never accept Corsi as dogma unless there is substance to the argument. Chiarot's numbers certainly took a hit playing with Niku, who didn't particularly defend well at all, and who didn't make the chart?

I still think we need another defenseman. To bolster LH depth, but Kulikov to me had been lights out, just smart in every decision he makes. There was one sequence last night where he did everything right in his zone, then makes a beauty backhand feed to Lemieux to exit the zone, who turned it over.
 
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surixon

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I am curious about this chart. I wish you would explain your statistics. Chiarot's are particularly polarizing, in this chart. I would be curious how Chiarot and Buff compare with Enstrom and Buff in both Corsi and actual results. Because it seems while Enstrom was efficient in Corsi, with passes that led to zone entries, and shots, Enstrom could not defend the front of his net like Chiarot, which made his advanced stats shinier than the results.
As you know I never accept Corsi as dogma unless there is substance to the argument. Chiarot's numbers certainly took a hit playing with Niku, who didn't particularly defend well at all, and who didn't make the chart?

I still think we need another defenseman. To bolster LH depth, but Kulikov to me had been lights out, just smart in every decision he makes. There was one sequence last night where he did everything right in his zone, then makes a beauty backhand feed to Lemieux to exit the zone, who turned it over.

The desceepency is due to the fact that there are two offensive indicators and two defensive indocators. The chart simply means that Chariot is better than average at preventing shots and chances against but is absolutely atrocious at generating chances and shots for the team. The net effect is that the Jets are outshot and outchanced with him on the ice.

Also a 4 game sample with Niku out of 33 games would have had a very minor impact on his results.

Kulikov got off to an awful start this year and quite frankly hasn't played enough games let alone good ones yet to offset his poor start.
 
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garret9

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I am curious about this chart. I wish you would explain your statistics. Chiarot's are particularly polarizing, in this chart. I would be curious how Chiarot and Buff compare with Enstrom and Buff in both Corsi and actual results. Because it seems while Enstrom was efficient in Corsi, with passes that led to zone entries, and shots, Enstrom could not defend the front of his net like Chiarot, which made his advanced stats shinier than the results.
As you know I never accept Corsi as dogma unless there is substance to the argument. Chiarot's numbers certainly took a hit playing with Niku, who didn't particularly defend well at all, and who didn't make the chart?

I still think we need another defenseman. To bolster LH depth, but Kulikov to me had been lights out, just smart in every decision he makes. There was one sequence last night where he did everything right in his zone, then makes a beauty backhand feed to Lemieux to exit the zone, who turned it over.

There are lots of these things explained on the internet. If you simply search Google you will find most of these things, including explanations of the statistics, how much value to take from each, and how you use them.

To answer your questions:

The above bars are both Corsi and Expected Goals for and against using a regression model to account for a player’s linemates, player’s linematching, and other usage factors like score deployment and zone deployment (which means that time with Niku only hurts him if Niku was shown as good by the metric and he made Niku worse).

What the numbers suggest is that Chiarot prevents shots against (Corsi) at a *slightly* above league average rate after accounting for all those usage factors above. The expected goal model states the same when including his impact on shot quality. It should be noted that xGoals are less predictive than Corsi.

Regardless of “substance of the argument,” Corsi predicts future results better than goals or expected goals... IE: when advance stats are shinier than “results” (except advance stats are results... just that shots are proven to be more predictive of future success in goals than past success in goals), it usually just means the results will move towards advance stats in time.

The issue is that the trade off for improved defense with Chiarot is not worth the amount Chiarot hurts offense. Chiarot improves defense by a smaller value than he hurts offense. When you add the two together he’s ranked worse than what you’ld hope a bottom pair defender would be.

Ironic that you point out Enstrom, as Enstrom, like Chiarot, helped defense but hurt offense. Unlike Chiarot though, Enstrom was a positive tradeoff as his help on defense was much greater than the degree he hurt offense.

Enstrom was actually one of the NHL’s best defenders in preventing shots infront of the net. The issue is the eye test is terrible at measuring defensive impact as the eye test actually doesn’t see most of defense. Offense is adding events, so you can see what a player does. Defense is mostly the absence of events. You can see how Chiarot and Enstrom look when the puck ends up in front of the net and they need to clear but you cannot “see” the times they don’t have to be there. By thinking defense as the moments you see someone defend, you are actually ignore a big chunk of defense.

It’s also ironic that you defend Chiarot. Goals, or results as you call them, actually paint Chiarot as WORSE than Corsi or Expected Goals. Advance stats suggest Chiarot’s linemates should have their goal differential worsen by 0.1 goals per hour playing with him but have actually been 0.15 per hour worse.

So why don’t you argue against Chiarot more than I do?
 
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Jet

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More evidence that there is more to hockey than stats - thanks garret you always save the day!

Seriously, though, Chiarot has taken a big leap this year in terms of doing the simple things, better, and even *modestly* expanding his skillset to include some offense here and there.

I haven't really liked him the past couple of games, but overall this year I think he's doing pretty well for what he is.

The thing that bothers me about the Jets defense is that they aren't really interchangeable.

Chia seems to struggle without Buff for any length of time, and Myers needs Kulikov.
 
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voyageur

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Jul 10, 2011
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There are lots of these things explained on the internet. If you simply search Google you will find most of these things, including explanations of the statistics, how much value to take from each, and how you use them.

To answer your questions:

The above bars are both Corsi and Expected Goals for and against using a regression model to account for a player’s linemates, player’s linematching, and other usage factors like score deployment and zone deployment (which means that time with Niku only hurts him if Niku was shown as good by the metric and he made Niku worse).

What the numbers suggest is that Chiarot prevents shots against (Corsi) at a *slightly* above league average rate after accounting for all those usage factors above. The expected goal model states the same when including his impact on shot quality. It should be noted that xGoals are less predictive than Corsi.

Regardless of “substance of the argument,” Corsi predicts future results better than goals or expected goals... IE: when advance stats are shinier than “results” (except advance stats are results... just that shots are proven to be more predictive of future success in goals than past success in goals), it usually just means the results will move towards advance stats in time.

The issue is that the trade off for improved defense with Chiarot is not worth the amount Chiarot hurts offense. Chiarot improves defense by a smaller value than he hurts offense. When you add the two together he’s ranked worse than what you’ld hope a bottom pair defender would be.

Ironic that you point out Enstrom, as Enstrom, like Chiarot, helped defense but hurt offense. Unlike Chiarot though, Enstrom was a positive tradeoff as his help on defense was much greater than the degree he hurt offense.

Enstrom was actually one of the NHL’s best defenders in preventing shots infront of the net. The issue is the eye test is terrible at measuring defensive impact as the eye test actually doesn’t see most of defense. Offense is adding events, so you can see what a player does. Defense is mostly the absence of events. You can see how Chiarot and Enstrom look when the puck ends up in front of the net and they need to clear but you cannot “see” the times they don’t have to be there. By thinking defense as the moments you see someone defend, you are actually ignore a big chunk of defense.

It’s also ironic that you defend Chiarot. Goals, or results as you call them, actually paint Chiarot as WORSE than Corsi or Expected Goals. Advance stats suggest Chiarot’s linemates should have their goal differential worsen by 0.1 goals per hour playing with him but have actually been 0.15 per hour worse.

So why don’t you argue against Chiarot more than I do?

Thank you for the explanation. There are some points I agree with, in that the eyes don't always see the whole value of defense. Good positioning can negate offense before it even starts.

I still think Chiarot offers the physical element that Enstrom did not, which seems to complement Buff more. I was curious of the actual results between the two Chiarot and Enstrom, with Buff. My eyes indicate to me that Toby gave up more grade A scoring chances, from things like boxing out, to 2 on 1s, in playing with a rover like Buff. But his passing created more offense.

I see Benny's weaknesses too. He is not a strong passer, or stick handler. He will rarely do more than jam the boards on an offensive zone pinch.

I don't disagree that he is better suited as a #7, moving Morrow farther down the depth chart.

I am wondering if his PK efficiency is a reason why he stays in the lineup. Not saying he should, in a playoff run, but Benny does some things well, the physical separation of players certainly helps with possession, if the positioning is right by other players.
 

BullLund

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Thank you for the explanation. There are some points I agree with, in that the eyes don't always see the whole value of defense. Good positioning can negate offense before it even starts.

I still think Chiarot offers the physical element that Enstrom did not, which seems to complement Buff more. I was curious of the actual results between the two Chiarot and Enstrom, with Buff. My eyes indicate to me that Toby gave up more grade A scoring chances, from things like boxing out, to 2 on 1s, in playing with a rover like Buff. But his passing created more offense.

I see Benny's weaknesses too. He is not a strong passer, or stick handler. He will rarely do more than jam the boards on an offensive zone pinch.

I don't disagree that he is better suited as a #7, moving Morrow farther down the depth chart.

I am wondering if his PK efficiency is a reason why he stays in the lineup. Not saying he should, in a playoff run, but Benny does some things well, the physical separation of players certainly helps with possession, if the positioning is right by other players.

I think Ben might actually be more valuable than usual in a playoff run because the refs will likely let him get away with more of the rough stuff. Being as physical as he is, against players who are tired, slowed down and possibly injured over a long season, we are probably bound to see him be able to compete at a much higher level than usual.

He would probably have been considered a solid defenseman in times when you could get away with a lot. Today, his low-tier skill and high-tier physicality style, doesn't necessarily translate as well to the way the game is being played.
 
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scelaton

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I get the numbers, so have been muted in my praise of Chiarot...but my eyes still tell me he adds value and is improving.
Buff's advanced stats have always described a player whose offensive value outweighs significant defensive lapses, so Chiarot may be a good complement to that. Additionally, on a team that already has a plethora of offense and no designated tough guys, a strong, steady, unflashy defensive-minded 2/3 pairing complementary defenseman is a very good fit.

Keep Chiarot. Send back Lemieux. Free Petan.
 
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Maukkis

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Thank you for the explanation. There are some points I agree with, in that the eyes don't always see the whole value of defense. Good positioning can negate offense before it even starts.

I still think Chiarot offers the physical element that Enstrom did not, which seems to complement Buff more. I was curious of the actual results between the two Chiarot and Enstrom, with Buff. My eyes indicate to me that Toby gave up more grade A scoring chances, from things like boxing out, to 2 on 1s, in playing with a rover like Buff. But his passing created more offense.

I see Benny's weaknesses too. He is not a strong passer, or stick handler. He will rarely do more than jam the boards on an offensive zone pinch.

I don't disagree that he is better suited as a #7, moving Morrow farther down the depth chart.

I am wondering if his PK efficiency is a reason why he stays in the lineup. Not saying he should, in a playoff run, but Benny does some things well, the physical separation of players certainly helps with possession, if the positioning is right by other players.
Actually, it was well documented that in 17-18, Enstrom was just spectacular at preventing shots from the most important locations (i.e. the slot). IDK whether you're referring to years prior to that, though, but Enstrom was far and away our best defenseman in that regard last year.

One thing I usually need to remind myself of is that not every player can be of same cloth, and both Chiarot and Enstrom are great examples of this. Buff gives us a lot of leeway in this sense; a defenseman who is devoid of any offensive potential can excel (Enstrom) or get by (Chiarot) with 33, if their strengths complement those of Buff's.

As for your point about the PK ability, it seems like Chiarot ranks quite high in terms of preventing Corsi and chances against on the kill. Him and Buff consistently top most categories over the last two years. Could be something there.
 
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Flair Hay

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Chiarot and Morrow both play well enough beside Buff they can survive playing a bigger role. I dont mind them rotating these two playing the hot hand.

We have Kulikov for Myers.

If we fix this hole at the deadline with a sick 2nd pair LD I'll be happy. But if not we should still be alright. Cant ask for much more imo
 
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garret9

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Chiarot and Morrow both play well enough beside Buff they can survive playing a bigger role. I dont mind them rotating these two playing the hot hand.

We have Kulikov for Myers.

If we fix this hole at the deadline with a sick 2nd pair LD I'll be happy. But if not we should still be alright. Cant ask for much more imo

I agree that I think with the current pieces what they have right now is the optimal deployment.
 

RRenegade

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I don't mind Chiarot, he doesn't make many glaring mistakes and unlike two years ago, he no longer ices the puck every time there is danger.
He is what he is, a 5-6-7 D-Man forced to play a bit higher up due to lack of depth.

However bad you might think he is, he is still so much better than Mark Stuart was!
 

Halberdier

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I think it's more that he's not 3rd pairing good.

31 teams, 2 defenders per pair per team, 62 first pair, 124 top 4...
Therefore, ranking between 125-186 makes "third pair capable" and 155 is "average" for third pair.

At even strength, Ben Chiarot ranks:
Expected Goals +/- per hour (adjusted for usage): 205
Corsi +/- per hour (adjusted for usage): 225
GAR: 210

Just for comparison, Corsicahockey.com "rating" puts him currently 101th LD. However, they list also some "D" there, so it's pretty hard to tell what that makes among all defencemen. I guess something like 190th is close enough. That makes him slightly worse than Morrow, but somewhat better than Kulikov.

Buff is at highest spot I have ever seen him to be as #6 D / #5 RD, Trouba #28 D / #18 RD, Morrissey #45 D / #21 LD and the usual suspect, whipping boy #1, Tyler Myers pretty high at #51 D / #27 RD.

Corsicahockey.com rating is based on gazillion stats combined for last 120 games, weighting (linearly?) more those recent games.
 

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