Kazakhstan: Beibarys Atyrau worse than jail

[Jonimaus]

At first, you said "could we move past the living condition crap and focus on the real issues?" and now you are saying that "everyone except 18 players in the Kazhakstan league comes from situations that are much closer to the life in Kazhakstan than Western Europe". How come? Nothing except living conditions (and those only to some extent) are comparable about the life in Slovakia, or the Czech Republic, or Latvia to life in Kazakhstan. If you would ignore "the living condition crap" you've suggested to ignore you would see there are more than 60 players who come from the whole different world.

And we are talking about some of the players who've played in the NHL before, they've seen a lot and they really do have the option to leave if something is that wrong about the league, once again, other than living conditions crap they probably manage to put up with.

I'm sure those ex-NHL players are amazing, and choose to play in Kazhakstan despite tons of offers from SHL, Finnish league, KHL etc. Man, they must really love it there. I mean, the story of former NHL players who play in borderline bush leagues after a while has never happend before.

 

[SoundAndFury]

I'm sure those ex-NHL players are amazing, and choose to play in Kazhakstan despite tons of offers from SHL, Finnish league, KHL etc. Man, they must really love it there. I mean, the story of former NHL players who play in borderline bush leagues after a while has never happend before.

Once again, what's your point here? Are we talking about the life in Kazakhstan or about former NHL players?

Tadas Kumeliauskas moved from this "borderline bush league" to TPS and is doing just fine. And he wasn't head and shoulders above the league level. So I think it's fair to assume other premier players of the league have a few choices too. Sure, they are not great and not good enough to play in KHL or SHL but they could easily be playing in the Czech or Slovak Extraligas, Allsveskan, Italy, Great Britain, Norway, Denmark, DEL or at least DEL2. But they choose not to.

So you can act like a smart-ass all you want and post as many of sarcastic smiles as you wish but that doesn't change the fact that you basically make no solid arguments, numerous solid European pros are playing in this so-called bush league and it's level of play is probably higher than in such European bush leagues like Norway.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but quite a few players have made the jump from Norwegian league to the SHL/Allsvenskan, haven't they?

 

[Garl]

The fact that it seems pretty much everyone except 18 players in the Kazhakstan league comes from situations that are much closer to the life in Kazhakstan than west europe. If you're comming from a life that is comparable, of course you're not going to make a fuss about it. I guess people should have expected it, so it's his fault for being surprised how terrible it is in that country Personally I was surprised about the corruption, since Khazakstan is a country that has not been mentioned once in Sweden the last 30 years, I guess many of didn't know what type of country Kazhakstan is, apart from being a poor former soviet state.

It's not so poor, really.

Also, you know that there are teams from Kazakhstan in KHL and VHL, and they have quite a lot of well-known players like Boyd, Bochenski, Dawes, Barker, Hamill, Lundin.

Victor Hedman played in Kazakhstan btw.

 

[Jonimaus]

It's not so poor, really.

Also, you know that there are teams from Kazakhstan in KHL and VHL, and they have quite a lot of well-known players like Boyd, Bochenski, Dawes, Barker, Hamill, Lundin.

Victor Hedman played in Kazakhstan btw.

But we are not talking about KHL or VHL teams. One would hope they offer more professionalism, no?

And I guess the statistics and BNP are lying then? Because they are at a 3rd world level.

Once again, what's your point here? Are we talking about the life in Kazakhstan or about former NHL players?

Go read the posts again. If you're having issues understanding the topic, it's going to be hard for you.

Tadas Kumeliauskas moved from this "borderline bush league" to TPS and is doing just fine. And he wasn't head and shoulders above the league level. So I think it's fair to assume other premier players of the league have a few choices too. Sure, they are not great and not good enough to play in KHL or SHL but they could easily be playing in the Czech or Slovak Extraligas, Allsveskan, Italy, Great Britain, Norway, Denmark, DEL or at least DEL2. But they choose not to.

Calm down. There is no way whatsoever that the average top player in the Khazakstan league would be able to play in Allsvenskan. Not even close. Maybe if they are lucky on some bottom feeder team, but I guess each league has a player that's way above the standard of the league. I don't know what state the Czech or Slovak leagues are in. But you should also know that the Norwegian and Danish leagues are not 100% professional, so not sure why they are even mentioned in the same sentence as DEL or Allsvenskan.

So you can act like a smart-ass all you want and post as many of sarcastic smiles as you wish but that doesn't change the fact that you basically make no solid arguments, numerous solid European pros are playing in this so-called bush league and it's level of play is probably higher than in such European bush leagues like Norway.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but quite a few players have made the jump from Norwegian league to the SHL/Allsvenskan, haven't they?

Considering you seem confused about players too good for a league moves up a tier, makes me think "discussing" with has been pointless.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Calm down. There is no way whatsoever that the average top player in the Khazakstan league would be able to play in Allsvenskan. Not even close. Maybe if they are lucky on some bottom feeder team, but I guess each league has a player that's way above the standard of the league. I don't know what state the Czech or Slovak leagues are in.

Why is that? Because you say so? You are underestimating Kazakh league and make no effort whatsoever to find out what kind of game level is there and what kind of players play there. You just keep posting all those statements out of nowhere based on nothing like a broken record.

If you want to prove something, make some effort, get some knowledge about the league. If you don't - why are we discussing this then.

Check out Robert Sabolic and his stats, he has played in Allsvenskan, Slovakia and DEL in pretty short period of time. As you can see the difference between those leagues isn't huge at all. He has exactly equal pace of 0.58 PPG in both Slovakian league and DEL meanwhile Kazakh league features more than a few over PPG players of that league.

Level of play in Czech Extraliga is even higher, and generally higher than in both DEL or Allsvenskan, and players like Grundling, Hujsa, Zalesak, Vak, Kana or Pinc were pretty solid there. Filip Bjork played in the Allsvenskan in 12-13 before moving to Kazakhstan and he's no star, just got dumped by Arystan. Same with Joni Puurula. Toni Dahlman played in EBEL and DEL before moving to Kazakhstan, furthermore managed to score over PPG with plenty of minutes in Jesenice. Jari Sailio and Kari Sihvonen played in Finnish Liiga.

 

[Sokil]

 

[airbus1094]

Ok, first of all Kazakhstan is not a 3rd world country it's pretty close to Russia in PPP, HDI and any other major economic index (note: 3rd world country is an antiquated term that doesn't really mean much know). Second of all the Kazakh league has some decent players and the level of competition is comparable to mid-level European Leagues (as has been stated by others). In terms of standard of living, KZ certainly is no Germany, but it isn't that bad (as has already been discussed). To quote SoundAndFury no kind of logic, intelligence or philosophy can ever win a fight against ignorance, superstition or stupidity (Justinov) - a thing to remember on HFBoards.

 

[Jonimaus]

Ok, first of all Kazakhstan is not a 3rd world country it's pretty close to Russia in PPP, HDI and any other major economic index (note: 3rd world country is an antiquated term that doesn't really mean much know). Second of all the Kazakh league has some decent players and the level of competition is comparable to mid-level European Leagues (as has been stated by others). In terms of standard of living, KZ certainly is no Germany, but it isn't that bad (as has already been discussed). To quote SoundAndFury no kind of logic, intelligence or philosophy can ever win a fight against ignorance, superstition or stupidity (Justinov) - a thing to remember on HFBoards.

I think everyone non-eastern european that has browsed the KHL section more than once knows how defensive the eastern europeans are of their country. Their level of nationalism is on the same level as USA and serbia. Being a 3rd world country nowdays is not so much about the original defenition, but more so of a poor country, which it is (and so is Russia).

The level of european hockey is tricky to map. There's KHL, then there's SHL and the Finnish league, then there's Allsvenskan and DHL, and then there are the rest. Are you saying the Kazhakztan league would be able to compete with Allsvenskan and DHL?

 

[SoundAndFury]

I think everyone non-eastern european that has browsed the KHL section more than once knows how defensive the eastern europeans are of their country. Their level of nationalism is on the same level as USA and serbia. Being a 3rd world country nowdays is not so much about the original defenition, but more so of a poor country, which it is (and so is Russia).

I couldn't care less about Kazakhstan but your perception of the matter is just... not good and not right.

The level of european hockey is tricky to map. There's KHL, then there's SHL and the Finnish league, then there's Allsvenskan and DHL, and then there are the rest. Are you saying the Kazhakztan league would be able to compete with Allsvenskan and DHL?

The fact that you simply forgot/didn't even rank NLA, which is easily the third best league in Europe, speaks volumes about your knowledge of the subject. Same with DEL (which you call DHL for some reason) in the fifth place when Czech Extraliga and EBEL is not even on the map.

 

[Jonimaus]

I couldn't care less about Kazakhstan but your perception of the matter is just... not good and not right.



The fact that you simply forgot/didn't even rank NLA, which is easily the third best league in Europe, speaks volumes about your knowledge of the subject. Same with DEL (which you call DHL for some reason) in the fifth place when Czech Extraliga and EBEL is not even on the map.

The fact that I forgot NLA is about the same as you didn't realize that Denmark and Norways leagues are semi-professional. Czech and EBEL is "the rest", thought it was clear? Not sure you're someone to comment on "knowledge" about anything.

 

[SoundAndFury]

The fact that I forgot NLA is about the same as you didn't realize that Denmark and Norways leagues are semi-professional. Czech and EBEL is "the rest", thought it was clear? Not sure you're someone to comment on "knowledge" about anything.

This is my post from Norwegian league thread days before we started this discussion:

It's more complicated than that. The difference between top and bottom teams in those small European minor leagues (Denmark, Norway, Belarus) is huge. So regarding GET-ligaen, I think (and there's plenty of evidence to support it) Stavanger or Valerenga would be competitive in the DEL but team like Tonsberg would play in Germany's third division.

Meanwhile you, I think, don't realize how good teams like Stavanger or Valerenga are if you keep insisting leagues are semi-professional rather than some teams in those leagues.

Leaving out Czech league between the rest while glorifying Allsvenskan and DEL is quite the joke too. Kovar brothers are KHL All-stars, Gulas is fifth in points per game in Sweden and Hertl was making a strong case for the Calder trophy before being injured. You know what they all have in common? They have all spent their entire careers in the Czech Extraliga up until this season. How many players, if any, of that quality do Allsvenskan or DEL have? But I guess you were too ignorant to even notice that.

Never mind. That's not even the point.

You admitted yourself that you don't really know the level, the players, you don't know how good or bad Slovak and Czech leagues are, you forget NLA when listing best European leagues and that the level of european hockey is tricky to map [for you].

So, even if I were incompetent to discuss those things, aren't you? Why do you keep talking when you have no clue what you are talking about and your only goal is to establish the legitimacy of the perception your imagination has created?

 

[Jonimaus]

Meanwhile you, I think, don't realize how good teams like Stavanger or Valerenga are if you keep insisting leagues are semi-professional rather than some teams in those leagues.

Well ****, my bad. I guess you know that better than the hockey fans who lives in Norway. Make sure to let them know that they are wrong in the thread below.

1. I'm not sure how many teams that are close to or fully professional. Stavanger would be an estimated good guess as the only team who are pro to the bone. Don't think any of the other teams are. Most of the top teams have half a squad or more who are pro's. And a decent administration and staff.

I guess this thread would be good for you, before voicing your opinion on the matter. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1596975 As I said, feel free to chip in and correct them. Must be frustrating seeing those from, you know, the country in question be so wrong.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Well ****, my bad. I guess you know that better than the hockey fans who lives in Norway. Make sure to let them know that they are wrong in the thread below.

I guess this thread would be good for you, before voicing your opinion on the matter. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1596975 As I said, feel free to chip in and correct them. Must be frustrating seeing those from, you know, the country in question be so wrong.

Once again, you are grasping at straws. Not only this Norwegian fan confirmed that Stavanger is indeed "pro to the bone" he also confirmed that "most of the top teams have half a squad or more who are pros". So how the fact that 3rd goalie and 7th defenseman are semi-pro make 1st liner who's getting paid 80k per year not a pro and how it contradicts anything I've said before?

 

[Jonimaus]

Once again, you are grasping at straws. Not only this Norwegian fan confirmed that Stavanger is indeed "pro to the bone" he also confirmed that "most of the top teams have half a squad or more who are pros". So how the fact that 3rd goalie and 7th defenseman are semi-pro make 1st liner who's getting paid 80k per year not a pro and how it contradicts anything I've said before?

Oh, 3rd goalie and 7th defensman is half the squad. (Most of the top teams have half a squad or more who are pro's. quoted from other thread) Well that's news to me. Hockey must be played in a really odd way in Norway when they somehow manage to have 2 players who are 3rd and 7th on their position be half the team. I guess their line up goes like this:

1st defenseman
7th defenseman
1st goalie
3rd goalie​

But I guess since 1 team in the leauge is pro, it makes it a fully pro league?

I mean, it's not like I called the leages semi professional, you know, not everyone is a full-time player. Oh wait, I did?! And I was right again. Who's grasping for straws?

 

[SoundAndFury]

Oh, 3rd goalie and 7th defensman is half the squad. (Most of the top teams have half a squad or more who are pro's. quoted from other thread) Well that's news to me. Hockey must be played in a really odd way in Norway when they somehow manage to have 2 players who are 3rd and 7th on their position be half the team. I guess their line up goes like this:

1st defenseman
7th defenseman
1st goalie
3rd goalie​

But I guess since 1 team in the leauge is pro, it makes it a fully pro league?

I mean, it's not like I called the leages semi professional, you know, not everyone is a full-time player. Oh wait, I did?! And I was right again. Who's grasping for straws?

You are. It shows perfectly when the quote is "half or more" but you conveniently leave "or more" part out off conversation to make some kind of circus post about odd ways of hockey.. Valerenga are getting ready to play in the KHL next year, do you really think they have half of a roster of semi-pros? Even you can't be that delusional.

More importantly though, the discussion turned to Norway when I said some of the players have the option to play in other countries and I mentioned all kinds of leagues including Norway. So, can they not? Show me where I said that Norwegian league is fully professional. I never did. Meanwhile, you said "but you should also know that the Norwegian and Danish leagues are not 100% professional, so not sure why they are even mentioned in the same sentence as DEL or Allsvenskan.". I mentioned them because good players can get paid there. And you just confirmed that they can by posting that paragraph of Norwegian poster.

Because, I remind you, this still a topic about Kazakhstan and you said to ozo "are you naive enough to think that everyone has the option of "well gee, I don't like this place, I'll just leave".". So many players do have that option, don't they?

 

[Jonimaus]

You are. It shows perfectly when the quote is "half or more" but you conveniently leave "or more" part out off conversation to make some kind of circus post about odd ways of hockey.. Valerenga are getting ready to play in the KHL next year, do you really think they have half of a roster of semi-pros? Even you can't be that delusional.

More importantly though, the discussion turned to Norway when I said some of the players have the option to play in other countries and I mentioned all kinds of leagues including Norway. So, can they not? Show me where I said that Norwegian league is fully professional. I never did. Meanwhile, you said "but you should also know that the Norwegian and Danish leagues are not 100% professional, so not sure why they are even mentioned in the same sentence as DEL or Allsvenskan.". I mentioned them because good players can get paid there. And you just confirmed that they can by posting that paragraph of Norwegian poster.

Because, I remind you, this still a topic about Kazakhstan and you said to ozo "are you naive enough to think that everyone has the option of "well gee, I don't like this place, I'll just leave".". So many players do have that option, don't they?

But you mentioned 2 players. That's not half. That's not even close to half.

You're extremely naive (or something worse ) when you even mention:

Valerenga are getting ready to play in the KHL next year, do you really think they have half of a roster of semi-pros? Even you can't be that delusional.

Are you stupid enough to think more than a handfull of their players would be KHL material? Based on your previous posts I actually don't know if you're trolling or you're just that delusional. I don't know how high Valeranga aims, but with anything even close to their current roster they should be happy to win even one game in KHL. It obviously (apprantly not to all though ) would be very different team that went to KHL.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Ok, I had enough.

This was Kazakhstan topic but as I can see only thing you want to talk about now is Norwegian league.

 

[Jonimaus]

Ok, I had enough.

This was Kazakhstan topic but as I can see only thing you want to talk about now is Norwegian league.

Good idea for you to drop out now. Couldn't find any more straws I guess.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Good idea for you to drop out now. Couldn't find any more straws I guess.

What straws are you talking about? You posted absolutely nothing on topic in your last 4 posts and successfully ignored everything I've said on it.

 

[airbus1094]

SoundAnd Fury, there's no point in arguing with someone who just tries to find inconsequential flaws in your argument and doesn't have a point.

 

[Jonimaus]

What straws are you talking about? You posted absolutely nothing on topic in your last 4 posts and successfully ignored everything I've said on it.

You've been wrong, I've been right. Your facts has been wrong, mine has been right. You're our of arguments, so now you're trying to bail with an excuse.

SoundAnd Fury, there's no point in arguing with someone who just tries to find inconsequential flaws in your argument and doesn't have a point.

I feel like pointing out flaws in peoples arguments makes for pretty valid posts.

 

[ozo]

Maybe try proving your statement that foreigners of Kazakh league has nowhere else to go as they surely can't leave? All you do is branch off somewhere and speak about the level of professionality of Norway league.

 

[SoundAndFury]

I feel like pointing out flaws in peoples arguments makes for pretty valid posts.

No, here's what you actually do: 1) you skip the actual argument; 2) find some minor flaw in it; 3) expose it without making any actual point of your own; 4) insert a lot of "laugh" and "sarcastic" smiles; 5) feel good and right about it. It's very well documented:

Seems I'm busy living the good life.

About living conditions in Sweden when you were corrected by fellow Swedish poster

Do not consider Czeck, Slovakian or Slovenian people "western european", as they are not, so not sure why you bother to bring that up.

When ozo pointed out there's quite a few Western/Eastern/Central Europeans and Scandinavians playing in Kazakhstan

There is no way whatsoever that the average top player in the Khazakstan league would be able to play in Allsvenskan. Not even close. Maybe if they are lucky on some bottom feeder team, but I guess each league has a player that's way above the standard of the league. I don't know what state the Czech or Slovak leagues are in. But you should also know that the Norwegian and Danish leagues are not 100% professional, so not sure why they are even mentioned in the same sentence as DEL or Allsvenskan.

When I pointed out that players playing in Kazakhstan have other options. Although you deserve some credit here for actually trying to reply to the argument by simply stating that you "don't really know what state the Czech or Slovak leagues are in".

I'm sure those ex-NHL players are amazing, and choose to play in Kazhakstan despite tons of offers from SHL, Finnish league, KHL etc. Man, they must really love it there. I mean, the story of former NHL players who play in borderline bush leagues after a while has never happend before.

When you were told that Kazakh league features players who played in really good leagues and that they definitely have options elsewhere.


We all make mistakes, due to lack of time, being biased, wrong recollections of past events etc., it happens to all of us, you can't always be right. But you are not even trying to be right. You come here to interact, find some kind of nitpick and turn it into an argument that you are smart and right and your opponents are wrong and stupid. Not to mention that absolute disgrace of the post you replied Den to.

That is pretty sad.

 

[Jonimaus]

We all make mistakes, due to lack of time, being biased,

Thank you, now you can stop posting.

You're points are reaching for it. Pretty much exactly like how you claimed half a team was 2 players.

Maybe try proving your statement that foreigners of Kazakh league has nowhere else to go as they surely can't leave? All you do is branch off somewhere and speak about the level of professionality of Norway league.

Obviously they should be able to leave, not everyone can be in the situation as the person in the article, but 90% of the players in the kazhakstan league would be bottom players, if at all in Allsvenskan, or play in a worse league than that, so what's the point (if they were better than that the league would be too)? If they're making more money playing there, play out your contract and then bail, like the western europeans are doing in KHL.

You eastern/3rd world europeans are so funny.

 

[ozo]

Obviously they should be able to leave, not everyone can be in the situation as the person in the article, but 90% of the players in the kazhakstan league would be bottom players, if at all in Allsvenskan, or play in a worse league than that, so what's the point (if they were better than that the league would be too)? If they're making more money playing there, play out your contract and then bail, like the western europeans are doing in KHL.

You eastern/3rd world europeans are so funny.

Of course they are able to leave. Which means that you are wrong, when you said Kazakhstan is worse than jail, in the first place. It's decent place where to make a living and plenty of decent players, as soundandfury pointed out, make their trade there. No need to be so full of yourself and think that allsvenskan is the worst place where hockey is allowed to be played and every other league must be dissolved.

And that part about making the money and leaving afterwards is absolutely stupid. 99% of NA foreigners playing in European leagues will return to USA/Canada after their playing days are over. No matter if they played in Kazakhstan, KHL or SEL. Not sure what you hope to prove by saying hockey players want to earn as much as possible. You think Canadians playing in SEL are fulfilling their lifelong dream to play there?