Injury Report: Barrie x-rays come back negative says coach Keefe

[Cor]

Under Keefe, can you prove that he's been our worst Dman?

(no lol)

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Under Keefe, @ ES

Rielly: 20:27, +0.0zonediff, 51.8cf%, 51.6xgf%
Ceci: 18:17, +0.9zonediff, 47.7cf%, 48.6xgf%

Muzzin: 18:19, -6.6zonediff, 60.4cf%, 59.9xgf%
Holl: 16:56, -4.9zonediff, 58.9cf%, 57.2xgf%

Barrie: 17:48, +7.4zonediff, 55.8cf%, 59.2xgf%
Dermott 15:20, +8.9zonediff, 53.8cf%, 55.6xgf%


That Muzzin-Holl pair has been beastly, in very tough usage.

The only guy who has struggled under Keefe is Ceci, though he has looked passable since mov9ng down to the bottom pair.

What's really funny is that Ceci has only really been played as a bottom pairing defenseman 3 times under Keefe. He had an assist in each of those games and was a +3. That is literally half of his assists this year.

I think getting him away from top pairing competition has been his greatest benefit. He has looked fine in a 2nd pairing or bottom pairing role, which is really the expectation out of him.

We lack a true defensive top pairing defenseman to put with Rielly, but I guess the run-&-gun Rielly-Barrie pairing will just have to suffice... As long as Barrie is willing to defend for once.

 

[DarkKnight]

Pending UfA that has done nothing this year, and you think he’ll get a second rounder minimum ? You’re delusional.

If I said first rounder you might have a point, as it stands you’re delusional.

 

[ACC1224]

Buried in Christmas parties all weekend, my liver is sore.
What happened to Barrie?

 

[Cor]

What's really funny is that Ceci has only really been played as a bottom pairing defenseman 3 times under Keefe. He had an assist in each of those games and was a +3. That is literally half of his assists this year.

I think getting him away from top pairing competition has been his greatest benefit. He has looked fine in a 2nd pairing or bottom pairing role, which is really the expectation out of him.

We lack a true defensive top pairing defenseman to put with Rielly, but I guess the run-&-gun Rielly-Barrie pairing will just have to suffice... As long as Barrie is willing to defend for once.

Ceci looks fine on the third pairing.

Issue is, 4.5M for a third pairing guy with our cap situation doesn’t exactly work.

Ceci needs to go whichever way we look at it

 

[ToneDog]

Lots of debate over how good/bad our right side defenders have been but other than that 3 minute, 3rd period meltdown in Calgary (where I thought Andy could have had 2 of the 3 goals against) our D has been better. Now if they could find a way to stop the cycle and stop weakly giving away the puck in our zone, we would not have to rely on Andy to bail us out of the situations where we are stuck in our zone for what feels like an eternity.

 

[al secord]

Please don’t bash posters. You’re welcome to bash the opinion!

fact of the matter is, Barrie has been our worst dman this season and our team is better off with him off the roster.

I came here to bash the opinion.

GM's around the league watch other team's play the ice hockey, not just the leaf games. They've also been watching this player play games for more than a half of a season under coaches not named Mike Babcock. I'm pretty sure a lot of them would be willing to take this discounted contract off of our hands.

 

[zeke]

What's really funny is that Ceci has only really been played as a bottom pairing defenseman 3 times under Keefe. He had an assist in each of those games and was a +3. That is literally half of his assists this year.

I think getting him away from top pairing competition has been his greatest benefit. He has looked fine in a 2nd pairing or bottom pairing role, which is really the expectation out of him.

We lack a true defensive top pairing defenseman to put with Rielly, but I guess the run-&-gun Rielly-Barrie pairing will just have to suffice... As long as Barrie is willing to defend for once.

Since Barrie and Ceci swapped pairs (5gms):

Rielly +1.7zonediff, 51.1cf%, 52.8xgf%
Barrie +4.3zonediff, 50.4cf%, 46.8xgf%

Muzzin -9.7zonediff, 55.2cf%, 48.8xgf%
Holl -6.4zonediff, 53.6cf%, 52.0xgf%

Ceci +4.6zonediff, 49.4cf%, 56.0xgf%
Dermott +7.3zonediff, 52.1cf%, 53.0xgf%


Yeah so Barrie hasn't been great on that top pair but not disastrous either. While Ceci has done much better on the bottom pair, unsurprisingly.

Holl is thriving with Muzzin on that 2nd pairing even with very tough usage...but it does seem like we could use an upgrade on Barrie/Ceci.

If Dubas could turn their combined expiring $7.25m caphit into a $7-8m dman, and call up Lilly for the bottom pair, that would be a nifty bit of business.

 

[ULF_55]

What's really funny is that Ceci has only really been played as a bottom pairing defenseman 3 times under Keefe. He had an assist in each of those games and was a +3. That is literally half of his assists this year.

I think getting him away from top pairing competition has been his greatest benefit. He has looked fine in a 2nd pairing or bottom pairing role, which is really the expectation out of him.

We lack a true defensive top pairing defenseman to put with Rielly, but I guess the run-&-gun Rielly-Barrie pairing will just have to suffice... As long as Barrie is willing to defend for once.

Same thing in Ottawa, played too much, 2nd. most even strength ice time, most short handed ice time, little powerplay time.

Looks like the Barrie - Rielly pairing will be about scoring more and defending less.

 

[MyBudJT]

I came here to bash the opinion.

GM's around the league watch other team's play the ice hockey, not just the leaf games. They've also been watching this player play games for more than a half of a season under coaches not named Mike Babcock. I'm pretty sure a lot of them would be willing to take this discounted contract off of our hands.

I hope you’re right but I don’t think you are...

 

[DarkKnight]

I dump Barrie more than Ceci, although both is fine too. Reason being, Ceci is just cap space for this year, as far as that trade goes its a net positive. Barrie is leaving at the end of the year (unless we are resigning him, then that's a different consideration) so how anyone could argue a one year rental on a one dimensional D man and Kerfoot for Kadri is good return, escapes me.

We need to maximize assets. Barrie could get a decent return, especially now that we can use this "Babcock was holding him back" narrative, he's still the offensive dynamo. LOTS of teams need a puck mover to augment their defensive D, he would have suitors no question. We need to develop these kids at the NHL level, time to see what Lil has, is he an option next year. As well, Barrie isn't a huge loss, the PP doesn't "need" him and he is sheltered defensively. Get some assets for Barrie, make the Kadri trade make some sense and develop the kids you're going to need anyways, all while not really losing much on the ice anyways.

This team isn't making or breaking it based on Barrie, that's for sure.

Ceci too, but my priority is divesting ourselves of Barrie.

 

[mikeo1]

If I said first rounder you might have a point, as it stands you’re delusional.

Feel free to create a poll.

 

[DarkKnight]

Barrie out skating at practice LL reporting he looks fine.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Ceci looks fine on the third pairing.

Issue is, 4.5M for a third pairing guy with our cap situation doesn’t exactly work.

Ceci needs to go whichever way we look at it

A 4.5 mill 2nd pairing guy does though.

 

[Cor]

A 4.5 mill 2nd pairing guy does though.

If Ceci is anywhere higher than our third pairing, we aren’t going to have a good time

 

[glue]

Ceci looks fine on the third pairing.

Issue is, 4.5M for a third pairing guy with our cap situation doesn’t exactly work.

Ceci needs to go whichever way we look at it

Maybe Lilijgren will steal that bottom spot by Feb? Then leafs use that money saved to acquire a solid backup?

 

[Notsince67]

Lil and Marincin have been recalled from the Marlies. What is happening?

 

[Macallan18]

Lil and Marincin have been recalled from the Marlies. What is happening?

interesting stuff for sure.
I can't see them calling Lily up to sit in the press box, so I would be amazed if he doesn't get a start on Tuesday.
Less likely, I know there are all kinds of holiday freeze rules coming, but maybe this was just insurance in case Barrie can't play?
My wish? Ceci gets traded for a 7th rounder or better. Or a failed prospect. Or a bag of pucks. Whatever as long as there is no salary retention.
Maybe Ottawa will take him back?

 

[hullsy47]

If Ceci is anywhere higher than our third pairing, we aren’t going to have a good time

All I know is if Barrie and ceci disappear we wouldnt be any worse
And that's if marancin and Lilly were are 3rd pair

 

[SeaOfBlue]

If Ceci is anywhere higher than our third pairing, we aren’t going to have a good time

I still say he's fine for a last year Zaitsev role when they were getting 20 minutes a night as a 2nd pairing guy with heavy PK time. The problems arise when you give them two year ago Hainsey and Zaitsev roles and expect him to play 22 minutes a night against the toughest competition.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Pending UfA that has done nothing this year, and you think he’ll get a second rounder minimum ? You’re delusional.

He has a history of being a top pairing D man who happens to be RD. 20 crap games under Babcock doesn’t tank his value.

 

[MyBudJT]

At the very least, this discussion should be in a Barrie thread...

I did. Here it is again:

That's stats of all different types too; advanced and non-advanced. This is after you made the following claims:

And like I said, a lot of those numbers are useless without context. Also, a lot of those metrics are completely irrelevant. Like, you're trying to use shots as a metric to support an argument that Barrie isn't a liability...? Where is the logic there?

To support this, you used one single piece of evidence: +/-. One of the single worst stats in the world for considering context. When you got proven wrong and challenged on it, suddenly context (which doesn't even say what you think it does) is all that matters.

How is +/- one of the worst stats in the world???

Using context (i.e. soft usage), Barrie gets scored on way too easily. Thats the point I've been making. And now you're trying to prove me wrong by showing offensive metrics... that doesn't make sense....

You literally said, in writing, even in an extremely sheltered role, which means regardless of usage, so you don't get to suddenly use that excuse.

It doesn't mean that at all.... lol.... Stating "in an extremely sheltered role", means that I AM factoring usage and context.... Context is always necessary when analyzing stats....



Look, you're clearly not listening to what I'm saying, its like talking to a wall.... once you demonstrate that you can listen and not put words in my mouth, I'll continue this debate.

 

[Dekes For Days]

And like I said, a lot of those numbers are useless without context.

1. No they're not.
2. They're not that much different with context.
3. The context of deployment was not a factor in your statement because you were saying it under the assumption of Barrie being "extremely sheltered".

Also, a lot of those metrics are completely irrelevant.

They are not at all. As I said, I gave you stats of all type, because I knew that you would try to twist your way out of it. 23 stats. Surely there were a few that you didn't deem irrelevant.

How is +/- one of the worst stats in the world???

It measures one very specific thing that is pretty useless, that is better measured by countless other stats. This has been pretty well established for over a decade. It is devoid of any context, and usually ends up suggesting the opposite of reality.

Using context (i.e. soft usage), Barrie gets scored on way too easily. Thats the point I've been making.

That wasn't the point you were making, as I showed from your quotes.
That "point" is still wrong.

And now you're trying to prove me wrong by showing offensive metrics...

There are countless defensive metrics up there, which you are choosing to ignore. Offensive metrics are also relevant when you are making the claim that Barrie is a liability on the ice.

It doesn't mean that at all.... lol.... Stating "in an extremely sheltered role", means that I AM factoring usage and context.... Context is always necessary when analyzing stats....

You stated that he is our worst 5v5 defenseman and a liability on the ice, even under the context of him being "extremely sheltered". This means that his stats should be bad, even when sheltered. His stats are not bad. You are wrong.

His stats are also not bad when considering usage. You are wrong again.

 

[MyBudJT]

It measures one very specific thing that is pretty useless, that is better measured by countless other stats. This has been pretty well established for over a decade. It is devoid of any context, and usually ends up suggesting the opposite of reality.

How is this different than any other metric? And is the bolded suggesting that -ve +/- is good and +ve is bad?? That would be a crazy take.

That wasn't the point you were making, as I showed from your quotes.
That "point" is still wrong.

It was, but for some reason you don't believe me.... I haven't questioned that Barrie has some good offensive skills... but his defensive weaknesses outweighs his offensive strengths....

There are countless defensive metrics up there, which you are choosing to ignore. Offensive metrics are also relevant when you are making the claim that Barrie is a liability on the ice.

I'm not ignoring it, I'm suggesting more context is needed to assess it.

Also, thats not what I was talking about. I wasn't questioning Barrie's offensive abilities. Perhaps you could have just asked what I meant rather than incorrectly interpreting my intentions...?

You stated that he is our worst 5v5 defenseman and a liability on the ice, even under the context of him being "extremely sheltered". This means that his stats should be bad, even when sheltered. His stats are not bad. You are wrong.

His stats are also not bad when considering usage. You are wrong again.

It doesn't suggest that. His stats can look good BECAUSE he's sheltered, and no context was provided (i.e. where does it sit quantifiably with the rest of the team... are some of these metrics by far an away ahead of everyone else, or just a little bit...? How does usage influence it?)

 

[Dekes For Days]

How is this different than any other metric? And is the bolded suggesting that -ve +/- is good and +ve is bad??

Most stats are made to measure something useful. +/- is useless for the very thing it is supposed to do. It includes multiples different sets of ice time (which have different expected stats) while excluding others, for no explained reason, which skews results and makes it far too impacted by role and usage, more than pretty much any other stat.
Which makes the fact that you're suddenly resorting to "but... but... context... usage... role" when you got proven wrong, one of the most ridiculous things I've seen. Not only was your original argument factoring in the worst, most sheltered usage for Barrie, but you yourself used the worst stat for context in the world.

It was, but for some reason you don't believe me....

Because YOUR literal words said something completely different.

And again, it doesn't matter, because even ignoring you changing your argument, you're still wrong.

but his defensive weaknesses outweighs his offensive strengths....

This is factually untrue.

It doesn't suggest that.

It LITERALLY does. It flat out smack dab in your face screams it, with no other possibility. Those are the words that you put down on this site, and there is only one result if those words are true. The result was the opposite. You are factually wrong. You are now arguing the very basis of what words mean.

His stats can look good BECAUSE he's sheltered

You said EVEN WHEN SHELTERED, his stats would be bad; that he was the worst 5v5 defenseman on the Leafs and a liability. EVEN WHEN SHELTERED.

His. Stats. Are. Not. Bad.
So you don't get to resort to incorrectly falling back on "well, he's sheltered".

are some of these metrics by far an away ahead of everyone else, or just a little bit...?

He is 1st in fenwick against/60 by the same amount as 2nd is ahead of 4th.
He is 1st in shots against/60 by significantly more than 2nd is ahead of 4th.
Barrie is 1st in expected goals against/60, and is ahead of 2nd by 0.13 while 2nd is ahead of 6th by only 0.38.
Barrie is 1st in scoring chances against/60, significantly ahead of 4 others on the team.
Barrie is 1st in high danger chances against/60, significantly ahead of 4 others on the team.

Barrie is ahead of both of the partners he has played with under Keefe in pretty much all stats. That wouldn't be true if he was our worst 5v5 defenseman, "even in a sheltered role".

How does usage influence it?)

Not nearly as much as you seem to think. Maybe you should understand how usage influences it before falsely making the claim that usage influences it and expecting others to keep showing you how wrong you are.