Boston Globe Ban Fighting in NHL - should fighting be a game misconduct?

Should fighting be a game misconduct?

  • Yes

    Votes: 24 16.2%
  • No

    Votes: 124 83.8%

  • Total voters
    148
  • Poll closed .

Gee Wally

Old, Grumpy Moderator
Sponsor
Feb 27, 2002
74,705
90,097
HF retirement home
All, keep the discussion civil. And non offensive.




Those of us in the medical community involved in the sport need to stop skating away from our responsibility to improve player safety.​


Former NHL defenseman Nick Boynton was known as an enforcer on the ice for his fearsome style of play. In 11 seasons, he won a Stanley Cup title, totaled 862 penalty minutes, and 51 fights. He also suffered from at least 10 concussions. The repetitive head trauma led to memory loss, anxiety, depression, and addiction.

“They can scratch my name off that [Stanley] Cup, and I’d hand my ring back right now if I could go back and make it so that I wouldn’t have had to experience all this pain and sorrow and anger and sadness,” he wrote in an essay for the Players Tribune. “I’d make that tradeoff in a heartbeat.”

Hockey is a sport of extremes: graceful on the one hand and violent on the other. The modern game is played with extraordinary power, speed, and skill. There isn’t a more exciting game on the planet.

However, those of us in the medical community involved in the sport need to stop skating away from our responsibility to improve player safety.

As a team doctor for USA Hockey and a professor of orthopedic surgery, I have seen firsthand how a career spent fighting can dramatically alter a player’s quality of life long before they reach their fifth decade.

Players often need treatment for hand fractures, oculofacial trauma, and concussions. And there is growing evidence that repeated blows to the head can cause chronic traumatic encephalopathy. CTE is a degenerative brain disease that is associated with a range of symptoms — from depression, aggression, and memory loss to dementia, speech abnormalities, and parkinsonism. In most cases, symptoms appear years after the brain trauma, well after players retire.

In 2018, the NHL settled out of court with more than 300 former players for its failure to do more to prevent head trauma during their careers. But the settlements are a temporary Band-Aid on a larger problem.

Fighting is a serious health risk, and orthopedic surgeons, sports medicine physicians, neurologists, and physiatrists need to be a united front in speaking out about the dangers that result from hits to the head.

Moreover, it is imperative that the NHL makes a rule change: Fighting must be a game misconduct penalty. Fight in the last 10 minutes of a game? You miss the next game, too. To the penalty box after a fight? No, to the locker room for a concussion evaluation. Furthermore, the penalty should be proportionate to the number of fights, so repeat offenders get harsher suspensions.

Making fighting a game misconduct penalty is not going to be easy. Hockey culture is traditionally a warrior culture, complete with a code. There is a vested respect for the way the sport has been played. The NHL “old guard” argues that the rule change would result in decreased viewership and game attendance. Many players and coaches say fighting is a valuable tactic to help win games; that if a team is losing, a fight will switch the momentum to their side.

These are dangerous myths, and my research with colleagues proves it. In three studies this year, we examined the impact of fighting in the NHL.

We found that despite two decades of declines in fighting rates, the popularity of the game has remained unchanged. During the peak of the enforcer era of ice hockey in 1987, there were on average 1.3 fights per game. In the season before the COVID-19 pandemic, the rate was down to 0.19 fights per game. Meanwhile, NHL arenas have been near capacity and were averaging over 17,000 fans a night.


The notion that fighting helps teams win is also false. Look no further than last year’s NHL playoffs. There were 89 games played during the playoffs with a total of 9 fights (0.10 fights per game). A fight betweenTampa Bay Lightning’s Ross Colton and Colorado Avalanche’s Logan O’Connor was the first fight in a Stanley Cup finals game since the 2017 postseason. Since the NHL Expansion in 1967, only two teams have led the league in fighting and won the Stanley Cup — the Philadelphia Flyers in 1975 and the Anaheim Ducks in 2007. Clearly, there is little correlation between fighting and a team’s winning record.

While the NHL did make rule changes to prevent concussions in 2011 — an amendment to the rulebook (Rule 48.1) made any hit to the head a penalty — the changes fall short of what is needed. Fighting is already a game misconduct penalty in International Ice Hockey Federation play, the Olympics, NCAA, and many European professional leagues.

The NHL should follow the example set by these organizations. Player safety should be at the forefront of the league’s agenda, and it should immediately change the rule. It’s a worthwhile investment in the players and the long-term health and viability of the game.

Dr. Charles A. Popkin is an orthopedic surgeon and sports medicine specialist in the Department of Orthopedic Surgery at New York-Presbyterian/Columbia University Irving Medical Center and an associate professor of orthopedic surgery at Columbia University Irving Medical Center. He also serves as a team physician for USA Hockey and is a member of the USA Hockey National Safety and Protective Equipment Committee.
 

Gonzothe7thDman

Registered User
Jun 24, 2007
15,242
14,967
Central, Ma
I'd be fine with it.

Rather see these players live healthier lives post NHL career.

Concussions will still occur during the run of regular play but if we can cut them down more by removing an unnecessary part of the game (fighting) then I'm all for it.

If you want fighting watch mma/boxing/etc
 

Wiggleboom

Registered User
Feb 6, 2010
1,381
1,865
Vancouver
As a physician, I completely agree with this. It is inevitable that fighting will be banned one day. Just like helmets and visors, it was obvious they would eventually be made mandatory. It will 100% happen for fighting too some day. Why not just do it now/soon to prevent more short and long-term injuries?
 

NeelyDan

Spot-Picker
Sponsor
Jun 28, 2010
6,902
13,653
Dundas, Ontario
Where does it end? There's about a billion other sports with the same repeated head trauma. I'm sure bare knuckles versus padding mitigates somewhat, but based on what we know about concussions, not enough - so where does it end?

In my mind, it's more appropriate to focus on making sure professional athletes who opt in for this risk vs reward type equation are educated sufficiently - and then allow these people to live their lives.
 

Gee Wally

Old, Grumpy Moderator
Sponsor
Feb 27, 2002
74,705
90,097
HF retirement home
I'd be fine with it.

Rather see these players live healthier lives post NHL career.

Concussions will still occur during the run of regular play but if we can cut them down more by removing an unnecessary part of the game (fighting) then I'm all for it.

If you want fighting watch mma/boxing/etc

pretty much where Im at too.
 

Gee Wally

Old, Grumpy Moderator
Sponsor
Feb 27, 2002
74,705
90,097
HF retirement home
What *we'd* rather they do and what *they'd* rather they do (re: post career etc.) are not necessarily the same thing, and there's a freedom of choice element to all of this

no freedom of choice issue non zip.
no more than I wont wear a helmet or visor. I wont tape my fingers. I wont tie down my jersey.
As a matter of fact there still is choice in the proposal. Just a price to pay.

Game misconduct. Escalating . I have zero issue with that.
 

Gonzothe7thDman

Registered User
Jun 24, 2007
15,242
14,967
Central, Ma
pretty much where Im at too.

I like the idea of starting off by just increasing the penalty for fighting.

That's gonna eliminate 90% of them I would imagine. With a game misconduct or possibly missing the next game the only reason you fight is to right some egregious wrong on the ice. Will cut down on a lot of those nonsense fights that happen after a clean hit as well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GordonHowe

NeelyDan

Spot-Picker
Sponsor
Jun 28, 2010
6,902
13,653
Dundas, Ontario
no freedom of choice issue non zip.
no more than I wont wear a helmet or visor. I wont tape my fingers. I wont tie down my jersey.
As a matter of fact there still is choice in the proposal. Just a price to pay.

Game misconduct. Escalating . I have zero issue with that.

Maybe I didn't articulate my point clearly enough - what I am saying is when we make comments like "I'd rather they have healthier post career lives" - well, that's a kind sentiment, but if I am afforded an ability to make millions of dollars as a guy who drops his mitts and I choose to enter, knowingly, into that field of work - I think that's ultimately on me to balance and choose. Now - escalating penalties for engaging in, say, sucker punches or forcing others to engage, etc. - absolutely, on board. Beyond that, I start to shy away.
 

Gee Wally

Old, Grumpy Moderator
Sponsor
Feb 27, 2002
74,705
90,097
HF retirement home
I like the idea of starting off by just increasing the penalty for fighting.

That's gonna eliminate 90% of them I would imagine. With a game misconduct or possibly missing the next game the only reason you fight is to right some egregious wrong on the ice. Will cut down on a lot of those nonsense fights that happen after a clean hit as well.

yeah. Same here. For the very reasons you state. Will also cull out guys that cant play a lick.
Especially if the escalation aspect continues to add on to games.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gonzothe7thDman

NeelyDan

Spot-Picker
Sponsor
Jun 28, 2010
6,902
13,653
Dundas, Ontario
^put differently, the vast majority of players are okay with it, and presumably understand the stakes - why aren't we, who aren't even involved?

yeah. Same here. For the very reasons you state. Will also cull out guys that cant play a lick.
Especially if the escalation aspect continues to add on to games.

Those guys that can't play a lick have already been, for the vast majority of cases, culled.

edit - and I am glad they have, the Peter Worrell era was not good
 

Gee Wally

Old, Grumpy Moderator
Sponsor
Feb 27, 2002
74,705
90,097
HF retirement home
Maybe I didn't articulate my point clearly enough - what I am saying is when we make comments like "I'd rather they have healthier post career lives" - well, that's a kind sentiment, but if I am afforded an ability to make millions of dollars as a guy who drops his mitts and I choose to enter, knowingly, into that field of work - I think that's ultimately on me to balance and choose. Now - escalating penalties for engaging in, say, sucker punches or forcing others to engage, etc. - absolutely, on board. Beyond that, I start to shy away.

ok, I get you.
I guess my thing is sometimes you have to save an employee from themselves. As more and more data comes in it’s pretty evident hits to the head, however derived, are having a brutal effect. So I’m for limiting what can be in regard to fighting. We are the only prosport that condones it. For now.
Thats why I like the proposal for escalating game misconducts. It in and of itself will reduce the head injury aspects IMO. But still leave a bit of if you want to do it, youre gonna pay.
 

Gonzothe7thDman

Registered User
Jun 24, 2007
15,242
14,967
Central, Ma
^put differently, the vast majority of players are okay with it, and presumably understand the stakes - why aren't we, who aren't even involved?

Players probably didn't want visors. Goalies probably didn't want to wear masks at first.

These guys aren't the smartest kids in class for the most part.

I'm sure if you asked Nick Boynton mid-career what he thought I'm sure he believed fighting belonged in the game.

Now he's saying the consequences arent worth it. A perspective he only has after having to pay the piper for his choices so to speak.
 

Gee Wally

Old, Grumpy Moderator
Sponsor
Feb 27, 2002
74,705
90,097
HF retirement home
^put differently, the vast majority of players are okay with it, and presumably understand the stakes - why aren't we, who aren't even involved?



Those guys that can't play a lick have already been, for the vast majority of cases, culled.

edit - and I am glad they have, the Peter Worrell era was not good

Im not involved with seat belts, intro of helmets, intro of visors, intro of metal detectors, intro darn near anything that can help someone else. But Im a proponent of all.
If fighting means so much to a player over actually playing the game, they should go into a real fighting sport. Now there is your freedom of choice.
 

shelbysdad

Registered User
Nov 21, 2006
3,689
5,135
Red Hook, NY
I get it...the guys that are crazy are boxers and especially kick boxers/mma.....those dudes take some serious shots, many when they are already down...

As an aside, what is the reason we only see visors and not cages? Vision? My thought would be as kids they have to wear cages, so if you grow up wearing them should be no big deal to keep them as you get older
 

NeelyDan

Spot-Picker
Sponsor
Jun 28, 2010
6,902
13,653
Dundas, Ontario
Players probably didn't want visors. Goalies probably didn't want to wear masks at first.

These guys aren't the smartest kids in class for the most part.

I'm sure if you asked Nick Boynton mid-career what he thought I'm sure he believed fighting belonged in the game.

Now he's saying the consequences arent worth it. A perspective he only has after having to pay the piper for his choices so to speak.

Suggesting tough guys lack intelligence is not only a really bad look, it's also ignorant - you'd find most are the opposite of what you're suggesting.
 

Gonzothe7thDman

Registered User
Jun 24, 2007
15,242
14,967
Central, Ma
Suggesting tough guys lack intelligence is not only a really bad look, it's also ignorant - you'd find most are the opposite of what you're suggesting.


Having listened to a large number of NHL players and athletes in general speak over years and years, I'm confident in my judgement. The smart ones are the outliers.
 

NeelyDan

Spot-Picker
Sponsor
Jun 28, 2010
6,902
13,653
Dundas, Ontario
Im not involved with seat belts, intro of helmets, intro of visors, intro of metal detectors, intro darn near anything that can help someone else. But Im a proponent of all.
If fighting means so much to a player over actually playing the game, they should go into a real fighting sport. Now there is your freedom of choice.

In many cases, this avenue represents (or did - it's being grandfathered out anyway, so to me this debate borders on moot to begin with) the only means by which one of these guys could eek out a pro hockey career. If the players want it, and the fans want it - in clearly very generalized terms - then I think we should stay out of their way.

I'd counter your point about seat belts, etc. as being one that risks harm to others - two willing combatants, who are there to establish or shift energy, are not the same thing.

Having listened to a large number of NHL players and athletes in general speak over years and years, I'm confident in my judgement. The smart ones are the outliers.

If you say so
 

Gee Wally

Old, Grumpy Moderator
Sponsor
Feb 27, 2002
74,705
90,097
HF retirement home
I get it...the guys that are crazy are boxers and especially kick boxers/mma.....those dudes take some serious shots, many when they are already down...

As an aside, what is the reason we only see visors and not cages? Vision? My thought would be as kids they have to wear cages, so if you grow up wearing them should be no big deal to keep them as you get older

it will probably happen someday. As a goalie I wore a fiberglass mask in early 70s. Then changed to a cage/ helmet ( think Lemelin)..late 70s until I could go no longer in the 90s.
The cage never bothered me. I could see easily. It was cooler than a mask. Its only a thing of getting used to it.
 

Gee Wally

Old, Grumpy Moderator
Sponsor
Feb 27, 2002
74,705
90,097
HF retirement home
In many cases, this avenue represents (or did - it's being grandfathered out anyway, so to me this debate borders on moot to begin with) the only means by which one of these guys could eek out a pro hockey career. If the players want it, and the fans want it - in clearly very generalized terms - then I think we should stay out of their way.

I'd counter your point about seat belts, etc. as being one that risks harm to others - two willing combatants, who are there to establish or shift energy, are not the same thing.



If you say so

I would suggest its far from moot simply based on your angst and strong feelings on the subject.

🙂
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad