Babcock opens up about Matthews, Marner, and Leafs' future

[Mess]

it would make sense that it would be in there. the whole nature of the deal is to ensure CHL can retain high end talent to a certain age

allowing them to go to AHL or europe would be the same in their eyes

Its also there for the players benefit as well, as an NHL team couldn't force a Canadian born kid to be sent to Europe against his wishes as his CHL contract protects him the same way it protects the junior club from losing him against their wishes.

Just because Marner might not be NHL ready next year, he might even be less willing to go play in Europe when he can simply play close to home until he is old enough to join the AHL the following season. Also Euro clubs honour contracts so Marner couldn't leave London on his own and sign in Europe either.

So its binding all around with no loopholes. Matthews was an extreme exception but he wasn't drafted yet, so no NHL team owned his rights and while Everett owned his CHL rights via the bantam draft Matthews never agreed to join the WHL nor sign a contract with Everett, so he was a free agent to do as he pleased.

 

[diceman934]

Babcock sounded like he was stuck with Marner situation because he explained he may not have anything left for junior, can't go to the AHL so he had better work hard this offseason because as it stands now he is not guaranteed a spot in camp, but keeping him with the parent team really the only option they have.

Babcock praised Marner's compete and skill, but his size is what is causing him some concerns, but tossed out the he "needs to eat right, live right and lift right" gauntlet to Marner in hopes he shows up at camp better and is more physically prepared then he was last year.

Last draft it was rumoured that Leafs management was split with Babcock wanting a big #1D man Hanifin/Provorov while the London boys Hunter and Hofford wanted Marner. Babcock in this interviewed again mentioned how a big #1C or #1D can impact the game. So you have to wonder if there isn't a little bit of disappointment with the coach wishing he was breaking in Hanifin (who is already an NHLer & WHC player) instead feeling that would be easier and preferred option.

Here is an article discussing the difference of opinion on who to draft.

Yes Mess that is what I took from the interview that Marner is going to be a Leaf next year, how much he plays will depend on his camp and his work through the summer. Babcock was clear that he was done with the OHL.

 

[Stringer Bell]

Yes Craig Button and Dave Poulin discussed this on Leafs Lunch with Andi Petrillo recently.

Both Button and Poulin have worked in NHL management and were responding to a question posed to them on the show.

They explained when a player joins the CHL he signs a player contract and the only way that contract doesn't bind him to his junior club until age 19 (or 4 years of service) is if he makes the NHL prior to completing that commitment. Otherwise the junior Club as per the CBA controls where he plays.

Isn't one of our assistant general managers the owner of the London Knights?

 

[Parkdale]

If Marner's only playing options are OHL or NHL and if he is not ready (in Babcock's opinion) for the NHL, he will play in the OHL....despite being considered (by Babcock) to have outgrown the OHL. He will only be in the NHL if he earns a roster spot and is playing regularly.

 

[djdev]

i dont get the european angle..the issue is his size, not his talent!! playing in europe doesnt solve that. he will still be playing against grown men just like in the NHL. on top of that he wont get access to the bevy of trainers and staff the leafs will provide him, mike babcock being first and foremost!!

 

[Clark4Ever]

Even if he isn't ready to take a regular shift by opening night, it would benefit him more to gradually break into the NHL next season playing sheltered minutes even strength and on the power play as opposed to going back to dominate the OHL again. Another year in London will waste a year of his development.

 

[A1LeafNation]

If we are still "growing" with JVR and Gardiner, then we can "grow" with Stamkos as well.

 

[Ciao]

No but removing the rib and having to do surgery around the muscles that effect his slapper could
This is a serious issue no matter how much people wish it away
10+ mill for a below average play making/ defensive center is not a good use of resorses when we have quality options in house much cheaper already
LTIR is not a get out of jail free card that we can play anytime we want
Stamkos is want rather than a need right now
We can use our resorses better elsewhere imo
He's a gamble we don't need to take

We do get it, Kiwi:

You would like having a 22 y.o. Connor Brown on an ELC because you see lots of potential.

You would not like having a 26 y.o. Steven Stamkos (3 yrs and 11 mos older than Brown) on a max-ishh deal because he would be overpaid and take up too much cap room.

That's about it, isn't it?

It's not that I can read your mind. All your posts say the same thing one way or another.

There is a different view: usually the team with the best player wins. Unlike Brown or most other players, Stamkos has the potential to be the best player on any given night. Priceless.

Some of us think it would be nice for the Leafs to have nice things. Give me one stamkos over two or three lesser players.

The Leafs can easily fit him under the cap.

Don't worry. Lou will NOT overpay.

 

[93LEAFS]

Isn't one of our assistant general managers the owner of the London Knights?

Hunter will either re-cuse himself from the situation due to a blatant conflict of interest. The Knights aren't going to piss-off the rest of the CHL to help the Leafs. Trying to do that will just cause massive problems for everyone involved. I'm sure franchises love playing against the Knights due to Marner being a top Leaf prospect and because of that a top drawer. He's with the Leafs or in the OHL, the AHL option or Euro are just pipe dreams. Marner will get a full camp and a 9 game sample, if he proves himself he'll be there the entire year. I believe he will prove himself and end up on the 2nd line/1st PP by the trade deadline.

 

[ConnorTO]

god bless MLSE for babcook

 

[Canada4Gold]

It seems like I'm the only one but I went into that "you add the final piece when you're done growing, we're still growing" part thinking about trade acquisitions. Specifically shoring up our defense. Maybe that's because I was thinking about trading for a defenseman as I was listening to it, but I was thinking about a trade for someone like Brodin when that was brought up.

It fits the Stamkos narrative too, really moreso, but I was along the lines of thinking how Buffalo went out and acquired O'Reilly, and Kane as in Babcock was saying it's too early for that type of move.

Is it too early for a Stamkos move? Maybe, but say we're ready in 1 year? Suddenly no Stamkos is available, but Tavare....oh **** Tavares just re-uped with NYI the first chance he got.

Is it too early for that? Maybe, but when you think you're ready it likely won't be there. I say go for it now so when you need it in a year it's already there, as long as the price is right so our cap people doesn't believe it will be a problem when it comes to signing the big 3, and having enough room left besides. I believe 10 million doesn't create said problem but who knows exactly how management is projecting out into the future.

 

[Kiwi]

We do get it, Kiwi:

You would like having a 22 y.o. Connor Brown on an ELC because you see lots of potential.

You would not like having a 26 y.o. Steven Stamkos (3 yrs and 11 mos older than Brown) on a max-ishh deal because he would be overpaid and take up too much cap room.

That's about it, isn't it?

It's not that I can read your mind. All your posts say the same thing one way or another.

There is a different view: usually the team with the best player wins. Unlike Brown or most other players, Stamkos has the potential to be the best player on any given night. Priceless.

Some of us think it would be nice for the Leafs to have nice things. Give me one stamkos over two or three lesser players.

The Leafs can easily fit him under the cap.

Don't worry. Lou will NOT overpay.

If two of the three lesser players are a goaltender and a RD I know which one I'd prefer to pay
It's not about nice things it's about making a smart choice long term
You want Stamkos fair enough I'd like him to at the right price
Don't kid yourself the cap will be a major issue in the back end of this deal
Setting it up so we can wriggle out of it would be a very smart move but bloody unlikely
Even Lou ain't that good

 

[A1LeafNation]

If two of the three lesser players are a goaltender and a RD I know which one I'd prefer to pay
It's not about nice things it's about making a smart choice long term
You want Stamkos fair enough I'd like him to at the right price
Don't kid yourself the cap will be a major issue in the back end of this deal
Setting it up so we can wriggle out of it would be a very smart move but bloody unlikely
Even Lou ain't that good

If you get the goalie it better be an expansion draft bargain deal.

Also getting a RD means exposing one of Gardiner/Rielly/Carrick to an expansion team, its better to wait for the RD until next year.

 

[leafhky88]

Yes Craig Button and Dave Poulin discussed this on Leafs Lunch with Andi Petrillo recently.

Both Button and Poulin have worked in NHL management and were responding to a question posed to them on the show.

They explained when a player joins the CHL he signs a player contract and the only way that contract doesn't bind him to his junior club until age 19 (or 4 years of service) is if he makes the NHL prior to completing that commitment. Otherwise the junior Club as per the CBA controls where he plays.

Is that correct? Not that it applies to Marner, but if drafted to an NHL team from a league outside of the CHL, I do not believe this is the case. For example, Leaf prospect Jeremy Bracco should be AHL eligible next year (whether he plays or not is another question), despite being an 18 year old Kitchener Ranger this year. Jeremy Morin comes to mind as an example.

The only recent example similar to Marner I can think of was Yakupov, who played in the KHL in the year after his draft (during the lockout) but I believe Sarnia had to release him.

 

[Kiwi]

If you get the goalie it better be an expansion draft bargain deal.

Also getting a RD means exposing one of Gardiner/Rielly/Carrick to an expansion team, its better to wait for the RD until next year.

I never said this year at any stage
I'd like to keep the cap room and go bargain hunting next year when the expansion draft is about to happen
Could be some really good goalies on the block and some pretty good 4/5 Dmen
Great buy low opportunitys should abound and I want to take advantage of it
We will definatly need a goalie but if Carrick or Marincin take a big step forward that will defiantly stop us getting another D before the draft

 

[Nithoniniel]

If we are still "growing" with JVR and Gardiner, then we can "grow" with Stamkos as well.

You kind of missed the point.

He didn't say that we are not in a growing stage if we get Stamkos, he said that players like that generally don't get added in that stage. Whether he meant that he thinks adding a major piece when you don't know what the team is and needs isn't a priority, or if you, like Mess said, think he meant that teams in our position generally aren't attractive to top end UFA, is another thing.

 

[schenneuf]

Trading JVR to the Wild or Ducks for a dman would help make for a solid offseason.

 

[Mess]

You kind of missed the point.

He didn't say that we are not in a growing stage if we get Stamkos, he said that players like that generally don't get added in that stage. Whether he meant that he thinks adding a major piece when you don't know what the team is and needs isn't a priority, or if you, like Mess said, think he meant that teams in our position generally aren't attractive to top end UFA, is another thing.

I believe its a knife that cuts both ways.

Leafs plan on having many young faces and rookies in their line-up next year, and generally that is something that causes a team to drop (more losses than wins) & end up lower in the standings due to inexperience and mistakes. Teams out of the playoffs trade vets for futures and try and manipulate the draft pick position. Leafs are starting next year as if it was post TD already with a large influx of youth from day 1.

Babcock would love to have a 30-50 goal experienced vet in Stamkos as he is wired to win as a coach, but the team is really not set up to win around him at this point. It sends the message of his signing that they're trying to win NOW and would force a lot of pressure on the youth by higher team expectations and less fan patience by signing a $10 mil star player. So instead of focusing on player development they're suddenly trying to accelerate winning by that action. Are the Leafs willing to toss their current patience plan out the window in order to accommodate a big splash signing to accelerate winning?.

The other side is from Stamkos perspective where his current team have been in the final 4 for the last 2 years and might even compete for the Cup this year and Leafs just finished 30th and last overall. This would be a first to worst kind of move by Stammer which you don't usually see from a UFA with his choice to choose destination. Leafs growing team verses Lightning competing team choice would have to only be about $$ money$$ in his mind.

However TB offered Stamkos 8 years at $8.5 mil = $65.6 mil (opening offer) to stay and even if Leafs give him 7 years at $10 mil = $70 mil to leave its less than $5 mil difference over the term of the contract at those figures or $625k on average per year.

Babcock understands all this, so he knows Toronto isn't really a good fit for Stamkos from their perspective of timing while rebuilding presently focusing on development, and also not from Stamkos viewpoint on competitive level currently as a growing team.

 

[Kiwi]

Trading JVR to the Wild or Ducks for a dman would help make for a solid offseason.

I gotta say not that long ago I was pretty keen on trading JVR but now I'm not so sure
With Mathews Nylander and Marner coming he could be very useful
Playing the kids with a guy like him would certainly help there development
He's a good age is a bloody good player and is on a great deal but only for 2 more years
I think the vet leadership thing gets overvalued I think slightly younger guys who are closer to the young ones in age and are still really good probably help there development more than some oldtimer who is about to retire and can't keep up anymore
I'd be open to moving him but I'd want something really good back like a #3 OR better RD
If he wants crazy money in a few years time deal him at the TDL for what we can get

 

[Mess]

Yes Mess that is what I took from the interview that Marner is going to be a Leaf next year, how much he plays will depend on his camp and his work through the summer. Babcock was clear that he was done with the OHL.

When Babcock was asked is Marner NHL ready he said that's a 2 part evaluation.

1) Does he have anything left to learn from junior?.

Marner won league MVP, playoff MVP and lead his team to the Memorial Cup so Babcock agrees with the entire world that unanimously unequivocally Marner has accomplished all he can at this level. Really hard to dispute that based on his on ice performance evaluation.

2) Does that mean he is NHL ready?

No, as this is the part that nobody really knows yet until they see him at camp. Babcock while just watching him in person tear up the OHL playoffs said its not as important as to what he does in the Mem Cup that will determine but rather his offseason ahead still in the gym.

Babcock answered this by Mitch needs to "eat right, live right and lift right" and have a pro offseason because the NHL is a Men's league.

Part 1 is all about his on-ice skills and talent, while Part 2 is all about his off-ice size, strength that needs to happen from now until training camp to decide if he is NHL ready. Both parts need to be fulfilled in Babcock eyes for the Leafs to do what is in Marner's best interest all around to answer the question is he NHL ready.

I've maintained my position from the minute that Marner was returned to junior, that it will not be as important based on his on-ice exploits that determine his immediate future, as much as the scale he steps on in training camp the following year. Bobcock just confirmed that very thing in this interview now that his junior season if almost over, and the real work needs to begin to get ready for next year when he will be weighed and measured.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Off ice is definitely more than on ice at this point. Whether he wins the Memorial Cup or loses... it's about what he does from June-September in the gym, the dinner table, and in bed. It's not about dominating the Memorial Cup tournament.

That being said, I think Babcock said those words to motivate Marner. I think the only place for Marner next year is the NHL. I just don't see him in junior anymore, regardless. Unless he really, REALLY stinks it up in the 9 game tryout.

 

[GQS]

The other side is from Stamkos perspective where his current team have been in the final 4 for the last 2 years and might even compete for the Cup this year and Leafs just finished 30th and last overall. This would be a first to worst kind of move by Stammer which you don't usually see from a UFA with his choice to choose destination. Leafs growing team verses Lightning competing team choice would have to only be about $$ money$$ in his mind.

However TB offered Stamkos 8 years at $8.5 mil = $65.6 mil (opening offer) to stay and even if Leafs give him 7 years at $10 mil = $70 mil to leave its less than $5 mil difference over the term of the contract at those figures or $625k on average per year.

Babcock understands all this, so he knows Toronto isn't really a good fit for Stamkos from their perspective of timing while rebuilding presently focusing on development, and also not from Stamkos viewpoint on competitive level currently as a growing team.

Isn't alot of the things said here the same things said about Babcock and why there was little chance that he would choose to coach a Leafs team in full rebuild mode vs. a proven winning team or even a team that's well on their way towards being decent like Buffalo? And yet here he is coaching the Leafs because he bought into the Leafs' plan and their direction and he was OK with not winning right away.

So the question is why can't it be the same with Stamkos? If he's available on July 1st, why can't Lou, Shanahan and Babcock go to him and present their plan and their vision for the future of the Leafs and how he'll fit into it and see what he thinks? If Stamkos is fine with our plan and is OK with not winning immediately and like Babcock is good with being a piece of the building process and if he's not asking for crazy amounts of money then why not sign him?

If he's not OK with our plan and his role on our team should he sign with us or if he's asking for too much money then don't sign him. Simple as that. But really I don't understand why we wouldn't go hard after him when he's an elite player who isn't 30+ looking for his last big contract before he retires.

This is what he said during his draft year about the possibility of becoming a Leaf:

“To be a Leaf would be a dream come true,†said Stamkos, who already had 80 points in just 46 games for the Sting at the time. “I idolized the Leafs growing up. I’ve always been a Leafs fan.

“I’m not going to lie to you. I’ve checked out the NHL standings. I pay attention to where the Leafs sit. I know they’re near the bottom of the standings. The chance of (getting picked by them) definitely is in the back of my mind.â€

If he still feels the same way about the Leafs now as he did in 2008, then WHY NOT go for him hard? Its pretty much now or never for him to become a Leaf and there's never been a better time for us to get him. A year ago we didn't have Babcock, we didn't have Lou and we didn't make all these great trades that got good return and freed up capspace. The Leafs have a plan and they should stick with it, BUT isn't part of having good management is the ability for our leadership to ADAPT as the situation changes? So while the Leafs will still be rebuilding, I don't see why we can't adapt and sign Stamkos if he wants to come here and be apart of our future.

 

[Mess]

Off ice is definitely more than on ice at this point. Whether he wins the Memorial Cup or loses... it's about what he does from June-September in the gym, the dinner table, and in bed. It's not about dominating the Memorial Cup tournament.

That being said, I think Babcock said those words to motivate Marner. I think the only place for Marner next year is the NHL. I just don't see him in junior anymore, regardless. Unless he really, REALLY stinks it up in the 9 game tryout.

I see it this way at present based on what Babcock, Lou Lam and Shanny all answered recently is Marner NHL ready?.

"Too good for the OHL and too small for the NHL" and trapped in the middle with the desirable middle option of the AHL not a valid option as per CBA and CHL/NHL agreement.

So that means based on today that puts Marner

1). OHL = too good
2). NHL = 13th forward in the pressbox & brought along slowly (** Marner's position currently)
3). NHL = not big and strong enough yet

So Marner has done everything in his power to prove the OHL isn't in his best development option any longer. Now he needs to do everything in power in the gym to get him from the 13th forward spare forward to a regular NHLer contributing nightly on the ice.