Rumor: Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 17-18 Part VII

[CB Joe]

Why are you asking me about 2009 when we were talking about since Roy left.

And again, you are missing the point. It's not about what I expect or want or anything like that. It's about wether or not we are actually rebuilding. Just because we have not made win now moves does not mean we are rebuilding. Rebuilding involves moving out most of your core.

I brought up 2009 because this whole rebuild conversation started when I said the Avs have been rebuilding in the last 9 years.

I disagree that rebuilding is about selling your core. Rebuilding is establishing a new core of young players. The Avs tried to do that around Stastny, Duchene, O'Reilly, Varly, Johnson, etc . It clearly didn't work. They are trying to do it again around MacKinnon, Rantanen, Jost, Makar, etc. I'm not arguing they did a good job or even an ok job. I'm just saying they tried it.

 

[Vaslof]

I get that skepticism with most rumors but I really trust that Ottawa offer and the role it played in the collapse of the Roykic relationship. So to me looking back at that and the other core player trade is different than rumors we've heard from NY or Columbus. And though it was infuriating at the time, to the point that it played a big part in Roy's departure, it has become an absolutely scathing indictment of Sakic's willingness to commit to a long term rebuild that actually addressed this team's weaknesses. We stumbled into a youth movement, we didn't commit to & execute a rebuild.

They did stumble into it yeah. Never should have gone for Iginla, Beauchemin, Stuart etc. They went for the cup and failed badly, which led to what we're doing right now, which imo is building for the future. Sakic is a terrible GM, which might be what makes people feel like he's not even trying.

 

[cgf]

They did stumble into it yeah. Never should have gone for Iginla, Beauchemin, Stuart etc. They went for the cup and failed badly, which led to what we're doing right now, which imo is building for the future. Sakic is a terrible GM, which might be what makes people feel like he's not even trying.

I think you give him too much credit. They're not building for the future, they're just trying to plug leaks with "younger, faster" supporting pieces.

...at least we're drafting better...

 

[Balthazar]

They did stumble into it yeah. Never should have gone for Iginla, Beauchemin, Stuart etc. They went for the cup and failed badly, which led to what we're doing right now, which imo is building for the future. Sakic is a terrible GM, which might be what makes people feel like he's not even trying.

I don't think they went for the cup, they just oversimplified reality. Like the Duchene cap, for example. You can tell that they sat one day and decided that to have a competitive team in the cap era, no one should make more than Matt Duchene. That's not how it works.

Same with the signings you're talking about. They lost Ryan O'Reilly and they thought Soda would be a good replacement. They lost Stastny and thought Iggy would be just fine. Oversimplifying reality.

 

[Balthazar]

Downgrading from ROR to Soda saved 2.5M to the team. That's peanuts considering that ROR was younger and much better. Downgrading from Stastny to Iggy saved them 1.7M.

Both ROR and Stastny were lost for financial reasons and the result was a considerably worse team with not that much savings. Horrible rookie GM mistakes and I'm convinced that Joe won't make them again.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Watching this team play at their best makes their worst games difficult. Especially since the swings seem to be so large in what you can expect.

I have to admit, this conversation kind of reminds you that we really do need that shot at another top pick in this draft.

At least we are not getting caved in every night.

Plus with them losing, there is more of a chance that Bednar actually gets canned.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I don't think they went for the cup, they just oversimplified reality. Like the Duchene cap, for example. You can tell that they sat one day and decided that to have a competitive team in the cap era, no one should make more than Matt Duchene. That's not how it works.

Same with the signings you're talking about. They lost Ryan O'Reilly and they thought Soda would be a good replacement. They lost Stastny and thought Iggy would be just fine. Oversimplifying reality.

Actually they went after Neal first, but I guess that is just another failed trade attempt on Sakic's part lol.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

I brought up 2009 because this whole rebuild conversation started when I said the Avs have been rebuilding in the last 9 years.

I disagree that rebuilding is about selling your core. Rebuilding is establishing a new core of young players. The Avs tried to do that around Stastny, Duchene, O'Reilly, Varly, Johnson, etc . It clearly didn't work. They are trying to do it again around MacKinnon, Rantanen, Jost, Makar, etc. I'm not arguing they did a good job or even an ok job. I'm just saying they tried it.

You can't establish a new core until most the old core is gone.

 

[CB Joe]

You can't establish a new core until most the old core is gone.

I can't see why not.

Last season Sakic even come out and said the untouchables are MacKinnon, Rantanen and Jost. So it's clear they've moved on from a team centered around Johnson, Duchene, and Varly.

 

[agentblack]

Actually they went after Neal first, but I guess that is just another failed trade attempt on Sakic's part lol.

Too bad PIT didnt go for it. Neal is a dbag or was but he's a straight up scorer with an edge. After the MIN series he would have been very welcome...womp womp oh well.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

I can't see why not.

Last season Sakic even come out and said the untouchables are MacKinnon, Rantanen and Jost. So it's clear they've moved on from a team centered around Johnson, Duchene, and Varly.

Culture

 

[tigervixxxen]

For me its not a true start of a rebuild unless you start from the top. I mean what does it matter if we trade everyone and Sakic and his buddies are still here. Still the same philosophy.
GM, Coach, staff, pro and amateur scouting , AHL coach..all have to be redone ..for a rebuild to start imo
Once you have a new group with a vision and plan in place then you mold the roster, draft, trade to fit that plan. And hope for the best.

This is a big part of it too, pretty tough to claim the reset button has been pushed without cleaning house too. And not the cleaning house they want you to believe without looking behind the curtain.

It's been a lot of half measures and baby steps that were eventually walked back. Rebuilding doesn't mean drafting high and playing a few kids. Which of those 5 rookies mentioned one is in SA, two are on the shelf now and one doesn't dress every night. Im really curious how deep the commitment to the youth movement continues in the face of this first bit of adversity.

Rebuilding also doesn't mean hoarding picks, which they never have done anyway, but it is about accumulating and building up assets. Picks are a form of assets but surrounding and continuing to build the organization with depth, prospects and futures is the more all encompassing idea.

Now I get the point, I'm not advocating getting rid of MacKinnon and going full scorched earth, which is a hilarious idea especially considering they can't even complete the one trade they need to make. And I get not wasting the prime of the young core guys they have signed now, it's been 4 years of MacKinnon's career and another four is going to go quickly. But that's why the focus on building as much as they can from this point forward, being smart with asset management and revamping the FO for real is so important right now and to do it right now.

 

[CB Joe]

Culture

I don't see how having Varly and Johnson around is bad for culture. If anything I'd say it's good to have the leadership and to be somewhat competitive. Having another season like last season isn't good for development.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

I don't see how having Varly and Johnson around is bad for culture. If anything I'd say it's good to have the leadership and to be somewhat competitive. Having another season like last season isn't good for development.

You have now whittled it down to two guys. Like I said, nobody said anything about getting rid of everyone.

 

[CB Joe]

You have now whittled it down to two guys. Like I said, nobody said anything about getting rid of everyone.

Well Stastny and O'Reilly aren't here anymore. Duchene is clearly on his way out.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Changing out a core player every other year or two is no way to make a serious change.

 

[hockeyfish]

Oh, the trade are happening!

 

[avsfan09]

I dont see why all players must be traded in order to have a proper rebuild. A team can rebuild by smart drafting and smart signings. A strong argument could be made that the current core could have developed better if they had have had proper insulation and support. Maybe they are just going to build up proper depth and add good prospects and hope that they develop and fill the holes in this club and eventually through proper competition make a competitive squad with good balance. Their are millions of ways to produce a good team. Tbh I think on more high draft pick and a Duchene trade and this squad could have the proper pieces in place to develop a contender. Obviously a lot has to go right but I dont see why this cant be viewed as a rebuild since they lately have had alot more long term moves than short term gain moves.

 

[The Kingslayer]

Sense is Matts growing frustrated - Friedman

No shit.

 

[Balthazar]

Sense is Matts growing frustrated - Friedman

No ****.

Link?

 

[Avs_19]

I might even do a Juolevi and a 1st deal for Duchene at this point. Complete roll of the dice but I think the Canucks will still end up being terrible so we could get two shots at Dahlin. Kypreos isn't the most reliable though.

 

[Avs44]

If I'm Matt's camp I'd consider a public trade request at this point. Make it even more uncomfortable, maybe consider sitting out. Matt showed up, has played well. Sakic's a baboon.

 

[hockeyfish]

Well, the Rangers did pick up a defender today. Setting up that Skjei trade.

 

[Balthazar]

I might even do a Juolevi and a 1st deal for Duchene at this point. Complete roll of the dice but I think the Canucks will still end up being terrible so we could get two shots at Dahlin. Kypreos isn't the most reliable though.

According to what I'm reading here and there Juolevi is closer to bust status than top 5 pick material at this point. He's been horrible and hasn't progressed since draft day. Shouldn't trade Duchene for the defenseman version of Michael Dal Colle.

 

[Balthazar]

If I'm Matt's camp I'd consider a public trade request at this point. Make it even more uncomfortable, maybe consider sitting out. Matt showed up, has played well. Sakic's a baboon.

Wouldn't change anything except making him look like potentially undesirable. Sakic would do exactly like Yzerman did with Drouin (ie: nothing).