ATD2018 - Draft Thread 3

[tinyzombies]

Only top-6 forwards yes.Many defensemen were intimidating, because the defenseman game is naturally more physical and the tall kids are played at defense more.

There's no way Messier was more or even equally as intimidating as Lucic.I don't buy it at all.Neely and Lindros probably yeah.Trottier, I don't think so.He was very physical, but not sure as intimidating as prime Lucic.Would need to dive into Lalone a bit more to compare, but very possible.Howe maybe, weirdly it's hard to compare Howe vs Lucic on that metric for me.

Who else?

Dustin Byfuglien.

 

[Namba 17]

@Namba 17 picks Red Berenson. No position specified so I assume it’s as a skater, not a coach.

Many thanks to @overpass for taking my list. Berenson was taken as C/LW.

 

[Sturminator]

Howe maybe, weirdly it's hard to compare Howe vs Lucic on that metric for me.

No way was prime Lucic more feared than prime Howe. Gordie ruled the league with an iron fist.

 

[Pominville Knows]

No way was prime Lucic more feared than prime Howe. Gordie ruled the league with an iron fist.

Was Howe's "ruling of the league" not partly becouse of his dominant all around game? Does Lucic not fight about as good as Howe? He is anyhow about one of a kind in todays game i believe, even if Byfuglien's case is interesting.

 

[VanIslander]

Does Lucic not fight about as good as Howe?

Howe ruled the league physically because of his legendary strength.

Guys simply were scared to fight him.
He splattered apart a fighter's nose with one punch.
He went for the net with two skaters on top of him and with one hand on the stick roofed a rifle of a shot. Players tried to replicate it in practice and could hardly life the stick off the ice with one hand gripping it where he had, let alone roof it, let alone roof it with a lot of velocity.

His mother was worried about him playing hockey because she thought he would kill someone someday on the ice.

 

[Pominville Knows]

^Yeah, he could do it all including stuff that took mobility which neither Lucic or Byfuglien can. Maybe the latter could pull off a smashing hit although the risk would be that he misses his target.

 

[BenchBrawl]

No way was prime Lucic more feared than prime Howe. Gordie ruled the league with an iron fist.

I'm still wondering if there's 10 top-sixers more aggressive/intimidating than Lucic for a 6 years stretch, even if Howe is such a player.

Lindros was for sure, probably Neely, according to Boston fans anyway.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Here we go, I cannot add to my George Boucher biography because I have reached the 100000 limit.What a joke.Not sure what to do now.

 

[Dreakmur]

I'm still wondering if there's 10 top-sixers more aggressive/intimidating than Lucic for a 6 years stretch, even if Howe is such a player.

Lindros was for sure, probably Neely, according to Boston fans anyway.

Top 6 in the ATD or top 6 on their NHL teams when they played?

 

[Iceman]

Stockholm selects Gaye Stewart, LW

 

[BenchBrawl]

Top 6 in the ATD or top 6 on their NHL teams when they played?

NHL

 

[Dreakmur]

NHL

Before I go through my list, I will say that Lucic is one of the more intimidating players to play. At his peak, Lucic was basically a tip-top heavyweight fighter while still being a legit top-line winger. Very unique kind of player.

I would think any older guys who could be called heavyweights would be as intimidating, right? Maybe not. I would say Jarome Iginla is a borderline heavyweight fighter, but he wasn't overly intimidating because he wasn't mean. He won battles, but he didn't run guys. He could stand up for himself and his team, but he didn't go on the offensive.

Back to Lucic, I think guys like Clark Gillies, Wayne Cashman, Rick Tocchet, and Alf Smith would be the most comparable players, right?

Gordie Howe, Eric Lindros, and Cam Neely. Mark Messier wasn't really a heavyweight fighter, but he was vicious.

Brendan Shanahan, Bill Cook, Dickie Moore, Ted Lindsay, Charlie Conacher?

 

[BenchBrawl]

I might have to create a thread just for the Boucher and maybe Gerard bios, then link it.

I know we voted against doing that, but for the rare times when we reach a limit, it seems like a better way to do it then linking two separated posts (which won't even be back to back in the bio thread).

 

[BenchBrawl]

Before I go through my list, I will say that Lucic is one of the more intimidating players to play. At his peak, Lucic was basically a tip-top heavyweight fighter while still being a legit top-line winger. Very unique kind of player.

I would think any older guys who could be called heavyweights would be as intimidating, right? Maybe not. I would say Jarome Iginla is a borderline heavyweight fighter, but he wasn't overly intimidating because he wasn't mean. He won battles, but he didn't run guys. He could stand up for himself and his team, but he didn't go on the offensive.

Back to Lucic, I think guys like Clark Gillies, Wayne Cashman, Rick Tocchet, and Alf Smith would be the most comparable players, right?

Gordie Howe, Eric Lindros, and Cam Neely. Mark Messier wasn't really a heavyweight fighter, but he was vicious.

Brendan Shanahan, Bill Cook, Dickie Moore, Ted Lindsay, Charlie Conacher?

Good starting point.But yeah, I feel incompetent comparing many of those players with Lucic on the "intimidation/physicality/aggressiveness/toughness" umbrella metric.Lucic > Messier on that matric for sure.Same for Iginla.

Thing with Lucic is he was very aggressive,It was active toughness, not passive and only detterant one.

I feel my intuition was right, Lucic would be Top 10 or very close to it.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Lucic was so impactful that Montreal signed Laraque to a very expensive contract for the sole reason of dealing with him.

 

[Dreakmur]

Good starting point.But yeah, I feel incompetent comparing many of those players with Lucic on the "intimidation/physicality/aggressiveness/toughness" umbrella metric.Lucic > Messier on that matric for sure.Same for Iginla.

Thing with Lucic is he was very aggressive,It was active toughness, not passive and only detterant one.

I feel my intuition was right, Lucic would be Top 10 or very close to it.

Only problem is that in the ATD, he's probably just not good enough to get on the ice enough to make much impact.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Only problem is that in the ATD, he's probably just not good enough to get on the ice enough to make much impact.

His ESVsX score is not that bad, as a starting point.I agree with you, of course.Lucic is not a good hockey player in the ATD, but if he plays on a 4th or 3rd line, strictly at even-strenght, he can have a physical impact.

ESVsX of 49 for Lucic.But I understand this metric should be taken with a grain of salt for many reasons.Not expecting Lucic to be seen as a good offensive player in the ATD.But I don't feel he's mediocre neither, which makes him the perfect aggressive 4th liner that was available.

 

[Iceman]

Yeah, Lucic seems like a solid 4th line energy guy here.

 

[Theokritos]

I know we voted against doing that, but for the rare times when we reach a limit, it seems like a better way to do it then linking two separated posts (which won't even be back to back in the bio thread).

That can be fixed. I (or another mod) could simply copy the existing post so that you've got two back-to-back bio posts you can edit as you please.

Just let me know if you want this to be done.

 

[Habsfan18]

12 picks left in the draft!

 

[jarek]

Bleh. I'm so busy moving stuff and buying stuff and fixing stuff and organizing stuff that I just don't have much time for this anymore right now.

 

[Pominville Knows]

Bleh. I'm so busy moving stuff and buying stuff and fixing stuff and organizing stuff that I just don't have much time for this anymore right now.

Good luck.

 

[tinyzombies]

Before I go through my list, I will say that Lucic is one of the more intimidating players to play. At his peak, Lucic was basically a tip-top heavyweight fighter while still being a legit top-line winger. Very unique kind of player.

I would think any older guys who could be called heavyweights would be as intimidating, right? Maybe not. I would say Jarome Iginla is a borderline heavyweight fighter, but he wasn't overly intimidating because he wasn't mean. He won battles, but he didn't run guys. He could stand up for himself and his team, but he didn't go on the offensive.

Back to Lucic, I think guys like Clark Gillies, Wayne Cashman, Rick Tocchet, and Alf Smith would be the most comparable players, right?

Gordie Howe, Eric Lindros, and Cam Neely. Mark Messier wasn't really a heavyweight fighter, but he was vicious.

Brendan Shanahan, Bill Cook, Dickie Moore, Ted Lindsay, Charlie Conacher?

I think you can throw the Rocket in there. He took a lot of abuse but was also nasty with his stick and was a great fighter. Dickie Moore here says that Rocket would come to his rescue in fights. Rocket was entered to fight in the golden gloves, but his coach broke his nose and he couldn't fight. "As an accomplished Golden Gloves boxer, Richard often gave better than he got. On one occasion, after being knocked out by Gordie Howe, the slightly conscious Richard responded to Sid Abel’s gloating, “How’d you like that, Frenchie?” by getting to his feet and breaking Abel’s nose (in three places)." (Which is where he got his nickname 'Ol' Bootnose'.) Anti-Québécois Chauvinism in the NHL




However:

"HOWE VS. RICHARD

Years ago when King Clancy was a referee, (Red) Kelly remembers Clancy being instrumental in arranging a no-holds-barred brawl between two of hockey's big stars - Maurice (Rocket) Richard of Montreal and Detroit's Gordie Howe.

'Just when Richard and Howe began to square off,' Kelly said, 'players from both sides started to pull them apart. Clancy skated into the pack, shouting: 'Let 'em alone. Let 'em fight. Let's see who is the best fighter.'

'The players formed a circle and after Richard and Howe threw a couple of punches, Richard lost his balance and slipped to the ice. He skidded underneath the circle of players and wound up on the outside.

'Sid Abel, who was playing for Detroit then, looked at Richard sitting on his rear. 'You finally got what was coming to you,' Abel said. [Apparently what he really said was: “How’d you like that, Frenchie?”]

'Richard was furious. He got to his feet and landed a right hand on Abel. It broke his nose. We never did get to see who was the better fighter between Richard and Howe.'"

***

And:

“Everyone just stopped and circled them and watched,” said Red Kelly. “King Clancy was the referee and he just let them go. We all stood there watching and both guys landed some blows. And then Rocket swung and missed Howe and he lost his balance and fell to the ice.

“What’s a matter, you finally met your match?” Howe’s centre, Sid Abel, jeered at Richard.

Richard got up swinging but not at Howe. He was so mad he broke Sid Abel’s nose. “He wouldn’t go back at Gordie. I don’t think he wanted that.”

The two generational superstars never fought again.

***

Another version:

"
The big blowup came in the second period when Richard crashed into Gordie Howe. They came up … fighting, swinging bare fists. They were pried apart and started the brawl all over again, rolling around the ice.

Richard was finally shunted to the penalty box. Still sizzling mad, he looped a punch at Sid Abel that grazed Referee King Clancy’s whiskers. That, along with a few choice words directed at Clancy, cost Richard his misconduct."

That doesn’t sound very decisive. Can this really be the fight that Richard was talking about in a 1999 interview? “I lost just one fight,” he said. “That was to Gordie Howe. It was just one punch and it happened in Montreal.”

There’s nothing in The Flying Frenchmen (1971), the book he (sort of) wrote with Stan Fischler. He does say Howe was dirty but, later, they got to be friends. He says Ted Lindsay was a bad man “with everything — his mouth, his stick — on and off the ice.” Although — wait — Richard does mention the night he fought the whole Production Line in succession, Lindsay, Abel next, then: “Howe came along and got the best of me.”

Not to forget the whole Bootnose side of the story. The punch that looped past King Clancy landed, I guess, on Sid Abel’s nose, which broke in either two places or three — reports vary. Either way, it remained squashed in such a way that his teammates nicknamed him, thereafter, “Bootnose” a.k.a. “Old Bootnose.” Abel’s 2000 obituary in The New York Times tells it this way:

After Howe flattened Richard in a fight, Abel skated by and asked him, “How do you like that?” and added a reference to Richard’s French-Canadian ethnicity. Richard responded by re-arranging Abel’s nose with a punch.

Howe, reflecting on the fight, said: “Today, if you called someone what Sid called Rocket, you’d get called up before a judge.”

Howe’s own recollection is that he’d noticed that Richard liked to cut to the middle of the ice to shoot. From And … Howe!:

So one time, as he came across the blue line, I really nailed him. We ended up in a fight.
There was a flurry of people around. Somebody pushed me from behind and I went down on one knee. And for some reason, Rocket was under my left knee. I waited, and when he looked up, I popped him. I whacked him a pretty good one. Then all hell broke loose, and when they got us apart we were yapping like jaybirds at one another. Then Sid Abel poked his nose in, and said to the Rocket, “Aw, you big frog, you finally got what you were asking for.” And Rocket goes — BAM! — and breaks Sid’s nose. Then I started to laugh, it looked so darn funny. Then Sid went in and did a job on the Rocket again, again.
Rocket was talking about that episode a little while ago. He said, “I took on your whole damn team, no wonder I lost.” Even in a loss, he could be proud. The guy is unbelievable.​

the concusser

***

"(King) Clancy was the referee," (Red) Kelly said. "Gordie and the Rocket, they never played against each other very often. They didn't get on the ice against each other because we always had a checking line against the Richard line and they always had a checking line against the Howe line.

"When they did get together a couple of times, they raised their elbows on each other, went down the ice to the other corner and raised the elbows again and they had a fight. We circled them. Clancy came in and said, 'Let 'em go, let 'em go.' I guess he was interested to see what was going to happen, too.

"Anyway, they hit each with a couple of blows and Rocket slipped and fell down to the ice. Instead of coming up on the inside (of the circle), he came up on the outside. 'Bootnose' Abel, who was standing right there, he said, 'Finally met your match Rocket?' and boom the Rocket nailed Abel and broke his nose again."

Kelly was also there to see one of the most famous fights in hockey history, one between Howe and reigning NHL heavyweight champion Lou Fontinato of the New York Rangers, whom Kelly referred to as the club's "policeman."

Howe destroyed Fontinato. The result for Fontinato was a broken nose, a broken cheekbone and a dislocated jaw. In essence, his face had to be rebuilt.

"Gordie hit him and one of the knuckles on his right hand, he knocked it out of place. So he just grabbed Fontinato's shirt with his other three fingers and his thumb and hung on. Leapin' Louie was swinging with roundhouses from out of right field and left field and Gordie pulled on the shirt and nailed him with the other hand with upper cuts and he sent him to the hospital.

"That was kind of the end of his police days. Shack and I kind of started it but we ended up with front-row seats."

"The first game we're (Toronto) playing against Detroit and against Howe after 12-1/2 years, he's got his arm around me with his stick around me and the puck's in the corner," Kelly said. "We're going to be the first ones there, so I figure I'm just gonna freeze the puck there with my feet.

"Gordie leans right into my ear and says, 'How's the wife?' And I sort of turn to respond, and he almost puts me through the boards."

NHL legends Ted Lindsay, Red Kelly share thoughts on former teammate Gordie Howe

 

[Habsfan18]

@Claude The Fraud was skipped.

@Hawkey Town 18 and @papershoes were skipped.

@kruezer has until 2:08pm EST.

This is all assuming anyone still actually cares about the clock and this final round.

 

[tinyzombies]

Lucic was so impactful that Montreal signed Laraque to a very expensive contract for the sole reason of dealing with him.

I think Laraque was brought in to fight Chara. They did fight, but both took big looping swings and both missed and went down and it was over. I suspect they had some sort of agreement to stage a fight but to not fight cuz they did this twice.