ATD2018 - Draft Thread 2

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Double dipping! It's misleading to list goals, assists AND point comparisons. If a guy was 1st in assists and 2nd in goals then of course he's 1st or 2nd in points! It LOOKS like more accomplishments than it really is. And given how small the leagues were back then, 15th, 16th, 17th is about 3rd or 4th scorer on a team.

This is what seems significant at the ATD level:

Goals - 2nd(1922)
Assists - 1st(1922), 5th(1923)

How is it double dipping? It shows he's a balanced scorer.

 

[Dreakmur]

Double dipping! It's misleading to list goals, assists AND point comparisons. If a guy was 1st in assists and 2nd in goals then of course he's 1st or 2nd in points! It LOOKS like more accomplishments than it really is. And given how small the leagues were back then, 15th, 16th, 17th is about 3rd or 4th scorer on a team.

This is what seems significant at the ATD level:

Goals - 2nd(1922)
Assists - 1st(1922), 5th(1923)

Didn't you praise the Frank Fredrickson pick a few days ago? Duke's offensive game is more impressive.

 

[jarek]

Didn't you praise the Frank Fredrickson pick a few days ago? Duke's offensive game is more impressive.

Sorry, what? Care to explain why you think so? Sturm's analysis made it pretty clear the opposite is true.

 

[Iceman]

Double dipping! It's misleading to list goals, assists AND point comparisons. If a guy was 1st in assists and 2nd in goals then of course he's 1st or 2nd in points! It LOOKS like more accomplishments than it really is. And given how small the leagues were back then, 15th, 16th, 17th is about 3rd or 4th scorer on a team.

This is what seems significant at the ATD level:

Goals - 2nd(1922)
Assists - 1st(1922), 5th(1923)

When being known as an offensive player absolutely, but if you are a two-way glue guy, having a bunch of top 10 finishes is pretty solid (not saying Keats is).

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

As to Keats vs. Fredrickson, just ripping some stuff from Frank's bio:

Keats' skating: Keats has a good head, but Freddie can skate rings around him and out-stickhandle him - doesn't say much since Fredrickson was very fast, but it gives an idea

As to the bolded, Keats' stickhandling was very well known. He was definitely one of the better players at that aspect of the game, so I'm not sure Fredrickson has that edge on him.

 

[TorontoTrades]

Port Stanley take Phil Housley, D

 

[jarek]

As to the bolded, Keats' stickhandling was very well known. He was definitely one of the better players at that aspect of the game, so I'm not sure Fredrickson has that edge on him.

That isn't my opinion. That is the opinion of a writer from an Ottawa newspaper.

Regardless, Fredrickson was a magnificent stickhandler himself, so it isn't outrageous to think him better at that skill.

 

[Habsfan18]

Port Stanley take Phil Housley, D

Quite possibly the biggest defensive liability selected so far. Packs a nice offensive punch from the backend though. Just hope you have someone extremely reliable in his own end to pair him with.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

That isn't my opinion. That is the opinion of a writer from an Ottawa newspaper.

Regardless, Fredrickson was a magnificent stickhandler himself, so it isn't outrageous to think him better at that skill.

Sure, just like Keats was also a magnificent stick handler himself, so it also isn't outrageous to think him better at that skill.

 

[Dreakmur]

Didn't you praise the Frank Fredrickson pick a few days ago? Duke's offensive game is more impressive.

I have Fredrickson's 7 season vs. X at 81.7. Duke Keats has 84.

Fredrickson had a really good 4 year peak, but dropped off a lot after that. Keats had a lot more quality seasons.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Another set of data for Keats vs Fredrickson in terms of RS offense would be nice. Paging @seventieslord

 

[ResilientBeast]

Keats is one of my favorite players to research, he just feels so hard to build around in ATD

 

[VanIslander]

Quite possibly the biggest defensive liability selected so far. Packs a nice offensive punch from the backend though. Just hope you have someone extremely reliable in his own end to pair him with.

By the same team that has Coffey.

Howell and Foote will be biz-zay!

Ought to be a killer transition game though. And on the 3rd pairing with sheltered minutes and PP duty and ice time when trailing by two, it's a worthwhile pick.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Jiri Holik, LW

 

[Habsfan18]

Keep the picks coming.

 

[jarek]

I have Fredrickson's 7 season vs. X at 81.7. Duke Keats has 84.

Fredrickson had a really good 4 year peak, but dropped off a lot after that. Keats had a lot more quality seasons.

And I have Fredrickson's VsX7 at around 90 with your same exact numbers..

Fredrickson's best 7: 121.1, 99.3, 96.9, 88.5, 87, 71.1, 67.7 = 90.2
Keats: 164.6, 84.7, 83.5, 75, 74.9, 73.3, 68.6 = 89.2

I have no idea where the disparity is. Even if I used plain Vs2 for Fredrickson, he still comes out at 85.7.

 

[jarek]

Jiri Holik, LW

Well that's too bad I guess.

 

[Dreakmur]

And I have Fredrickson's VsX7 at around 90 with your same exact numbers..

Fredrickson's best 7: 121.1, 99.3, 96.9, 88.5, 87, 71.1, 67.7 = 90.2

121(1923), 99(1921), 97(1927), 87(1924), 63(1925), 59(1922), 56(1926)

 

[jarek]

121(1923), 99(1921), 97(1927), 87(1924), 63(1925), 59(1922), 56(1926)

So using Sturm's VsX method, the 1922 score becomes a 71.1, the 1925 becomes an 88.5, and the 1926 becomes a 67.7.

 

[Dreakmur]

So using Sturm's VsX method, the 1922 score becomes a 71.1, the 1925 becomes an 88.5, and the 1926 becomes a 67.7.

So, in 1922, you're using a cut-off after the 15th leading scorer?

 

[jarek]

So, in 1922, you're using a cut-off after the 15th leading scorer?

No. I use the average of these scores, 4th to 9th:

Keats actually benefits from this a LOT more than Fredrickson does..

37.345

37.166

37.034

36.504

36.228

35.901

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Dreakmur]

No. I use the average of these scores, 4th to 9th:

Keats actually benefits from this a LOT more than Fredrickson does..

37.345

37.166

37.034

36.504

36.228

35.901

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

What about the gap between 15th and 16th place?

 

[VanIslander]

The Railers select left winger John Tonelli, the 100-point NHL season Selke finalist who was a dynasty team's second leading scoring winger with 63 playoff points over the 4-year reign after being an 18-year-old WHA team leader in playoff goals on a championship final run and before being traded to Calgary at the deadline to contribute 16 playoff points on a Flames Stanley Cup Finals run. The two-time NHL 1st team all-star would later record his fourth and fifth 30-goal seasons in Los Angeles and retire with 836 points in 1028 NHL games, 115 playoff points in 172 postseason contests. He started as a youngster on a line with Gordie Howe and played his last full season with Wayne Gretzky. He is known as tough, defensively responsible and one of the best corner men in hockey. His career plus-minus of +222 was much earned. He was also clutch. He set up the dynasty's first Stanley Cup-winning goal at 7:11 in overtime of Game 6 vs. Philly, scored winning goals in 14th and 15th games of the franchise's then record winning streak (the goal in the 15th game was scored with 47 seconds remaining) and kept the dynasty team's 1982 playoff run alive with tying and winning goals in Game 5 of first-round series vs. Pittsburgh on April 13, 1982. His winning goal was scored at 6:19 of overtime. In the 1984 Canada Cup he was a physical presence all over the ice, winning battles for the puck, setting up linemates, and scoring a key goal in the semifinal against the Soviets to put the game into overtime.

1984 Canada Cup MVP
"the bull on the ice" -- Don Weekes​

... an energetic power forward who thrived on battles along the wall and in the corner. He was incredible in those corners actually. His feet were always moving, his arms always pumping, and more often than not he came out of the battle with the puck.

Coming off of a humiliating 1981 Canada Cup, Team Canada was looking for revenge against the mighty Soviets, but the team was not gelling as a unit and was really struggling on the ice. But it was John who stepped up at the right time to give his teammates the figurative kick in the pants. He did so in his usual fashion - by leading by example. While Paul Coffey and Mike Bossy are best remembered for their spectacular goal against the Soviets, everyone agreed the reason they beat them was because of J.T. And he was rewarded for his play by being named as the Canada Cup Most Valuable Player. He joins an elite group that includes Bobby Orr, Vladislav Tretiak, and Wayne Gretzky (twice) two have be named as the MVP of the most prestigious tournament in hockey. Tonelli followed up his great showing on the international stage with his best NHL season. He scored a career high 42 goals and 100 points!

"Tonelli will give you 100, no, 150 percent on every shift. He works so hard and just grinds for every goal," admired coach Al Arbour.

 

[jarek]

Did anyone else read VI's post and have no idea who he picked?

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Did anyone else read VI's post and have no idea who he picked?

I saw CC MVP 84, and thats it.