ATD #9 René Lecavalier Semifinal: #2 Springfield Isotopes vs. #3 Ottawa 67's

Sturminator

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Am I the only one left scratching my head at the low point totals from the 30's and 40's...

From what I've read, the low scoring totals were mostly the result of a laissez faire enforcement of holding, hooking and obstruction rules (such as existed at the time) that made even pre-lockout hockey look like a game of two-hand-touch. This phenomenon seems to be even more pronounced in the playoffs, and makes the postseason scoring records of players from this era consistently hard to analyze conclusively.
 

Nalyd Psycho

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My thoughts on the series.

-Ullman is one of the most underrated players ever. Not as valuable as Apps, but not far off.

-Dryden is a huge advantage.

-Howe is a huge advantage

-The 67's defense is quicker and more explosive. But not nearly as tough as the Isotopes.

-The 67's first line is one of the best.

-Both second lines intrigue me, not sure which I prefer.

-I prefer the Isotopes 3rd line, their bang and crash scoring may prove invaluable against the 67's defense. Unfortunately for the Isotopes, their major scoring lines won't exploit any failings in the 67's blueline.

-67's 4th line is awesome. And if not for penalty concerns would play a bigger role.

-I think what it comes down to is this, what style do you think is better, and who did a better job achieving it?
 

Rick Middleton

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Rather than do a line-by-line analysis, I thought I'd do a position by position analysis of our two teams. This may take me a while, so be prepared for this post to be incomplete.

Centers

Norm Ullman vs. Syl Apps

Sturm has already addressed this in an earlier post (http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=14232933&postcount=12). Quite frankly, there is little difference between the two. Apps got more love during his day as a player (All-Star voting and Hart Trophy voting), but in terms of offensive impact there is little to differentiate the two. Ullman is arguably the better defensive player, Apps is arguably the better leader. So this is really a wash IMO.

Bobby Smith vs. Duke Keats

This matchup will probably garner the most disparate conclusions. Keats dominated his League to a much greater degree than what Smith did, albeit in the WCHL. Smith had a much longer and far more prolific career, but it is questionable that he ever hit that peak that Keats had. So what do you take as the most important component of an athlete's ability, peak value or career value? The one component that does differentiate them in a substantial way is Keats' well-known temper. Keats will undoubtedly be spending a lot of time in the penalty box or in the press box when suspended, whereas Smith provides you a more consistent effort night-in, night-out. Physically they probably are equal as well, with a slight edge to Smith on pure size, and a slight edge to Keats on toughness. Keats was a larger man for his time (5'11" 195), and Smith was a big body as well (6'4" 210). So this comes down to what you value the most, peak or career. Simply because of Keats fiery temper, I have to give Smith the slight nod here. He'll be in the lineup when you need him, giving you what you need to win. Keats could win you the game, or lose you the game.

Walt Tkaczuk vs. Gregg Sheppard

Another dead-even heat. Tkaczuk is arguably the better defensive player, while Sheppard is arguably the better offensive player. Neither are deficient in any way, both are great two-way players. Both were noted for their PK ability and their ability to stop the opposition's best player. Tkaczuk may have the physical advantage, Pelletier lauds him in his article (http://nyrangerslegends.blogspot.com/2006/05/walt-tkaczuk.html), and Esposito stated that
"I've never run into anyone tougher. Ever," said Espo of Tkaczuk. "Bobby Clarke of Philadelphia gives me fits because he's so fast and persistent. Jim Harrison in Toronto was as strong as a horse but Tkaczuk had a combination of those qualities."
Sheppard, on the other hand, was a smaller player who was noted for his clean play on rough Bruin teams. So, this is a question of what you're looking for in your 3rd line center. Want more offense? Take Sheppard. Want more toughness and defensive play? Take Tkaczuk.

Pit Martin vs. Dale Hunter

I'll be honest. I like Dale Hunter here better. Notoriously dirty/hard-nosed, Hunter was the heart of those good Nordique teams of the 80's, and went on to Captain those good Cap teams of the late 80's early-90's. That's not to say that Martin is a schlub. Pit is a very good player, and his stats back that up, but he had the unfortunate luck of being involved in the Esposito trade, and that probably put a dampener on what could have been an even better career (imagine Pit Martin centering Hodge and Cashman). He had a very good career, and adds a nice dynamic to our 4th line, but Hunter simply outmatches Pit. It's an edge to the 67's. Not a rout, but a clear edge.
 
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reckoning

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Sturminator said:
30 was actually pretty old for a player of that generation. Very few players were able to sustain their prime production past the age of 30. Ted Kennedy, for example, retired at the age of 29 in the same offseason in which Thomson was traded.

I don't think the average age was all that low back then. Only pnep knows for sure. But looking at the ages of the 4 defencemen who made the All-Star Team in 56-57:

Harvey- 32
Kelly- 29
Flaman- 30
Gadsby- 29

30 doesn't seem to be over the hill.
 

Sturminator

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I don't think the average age was all that low back then. Only pnep knows for sure. But looking at the ages of the 4 defencemen who made the All-Star Team in 56-57:

Harvey- 32
Kelly- 29
Flaman- 30
Gadsby- 29

30 doesn't seem to be over the hill.

Uhm...first of all, those are some truly special players you list there, none of whom should be compared to Thomson. Furthermore, you're wrong. In the 56-57 season, out of the entire NHL, only the following players were above the age of 30:

Ted Lindsay: 31 - Detroit
Maurice Richard: 35 - Montreal
Doug Harvey: 32 - Montreal
Johnny Pierson: 31 - Boston
Johnny Bower: 32 - Rangers
Sid Smith: 31 - Maple Leafs
Ted Kennedy: 31 - Maple Leafs (I had Kennedy's retirement age wrong)
Harry Watson: 33 - Chicago
Gus Mortson: 32 - Chicago
Ken Mosdell: 34 - Chicago

That's it. Ten players in the entire league (including goalies) above the age of 30, and half of them were superstars. The only team in the league that had more than two was also by far the worst team in the league. It was a young man's game during the O6 era, recko. There were a few superstars who were able to sustain peak production into their thirties, but it was a rare feat, and Jimmy Thomson simply wasn't one of those players. Again, the contention that the departure of a 30 year old Thomson was the cause of an increase in Toronto's goals against numbers is a very tenuous claim.
 

Sturminator

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-Dryden is a huge advantage.

-Howe is a huge advantage

The difference between Dryden and Vezina is clearly bigger than the difference between Howe and Bathgate, unless you're the guy who wrote that book, I guess. As you well know, Nalyd, Andy Bathgate outscored Gordie Howe over an eight year span - basically the entirety of Andy's athletic peak. Howe obviously has a number of advantages over Bathgate, but in terms of scoring ability, the gap is not huge.

-Unfortunately for the Isotopes, their major scoring lines won't exploit any failings in the 67's blueline.

I disagree with this statement, but I'm not going to waste any more ink repeating myself.
 

Nalyd Psycho

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I disagree with this statement, but I'm not going to waste any more ink repeating myself.

What I meant by that statement was that with guys like Clancy and Suchy in major roles, a large bruising forward corps would be very effective against the 67's. Not that your team wouldn't be effective, just that the glaring flaw won't be fully exploited.
 

reckoning

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Andy Bathgate outscored Gordie Howe over an eight year span - basically the entirety of Andy's athletic peak.
Putting aside the fact that Bathgate played more games and their PPG were equal, it's still somewhat misleading. Bathgate was age 24-31 in that span, Howe was aged 28-35. Considering that most players hit their offensive peak in their mid-20s (and especially considering that the 06 era was a "young man's game" where "it was a rare feat for a player to sustain peak production after 30"), then wouldn't you expect that the player in the 24-31 range would have more points?

Selectively choosing years where one player peaked but conveniently fall outside the other players peak is easy. I could point out that Vic Stasiuk outscored Norm Ullman in the 4 year span between '56-'57 to '59-'60. It proves nothing though.
 

Sturminator

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Putting aside the fact that Bathgate played more games and their PPG were equal, it's still somewhat misleading.

Of course it is. Howe wasn't at his "statistical full peak" during that period, though he did win 4 of his 6 Harts in those years, so I don't think it can be said that he had fallen off much. Howe's team and linemates were also vastly superior to Bathgate's, so taking the full picture into account cuts both ways. The point here is not to suggest that Bathgate is better than or even as good as Gordie Howe, because he clearly is not. Comparing Bathgate's peak numbers to those of a still extremely productive Howe, does, however, illustrate just how good Bathgate was. It was actually the entire league that Bathgate outscored over his 8 year peak, not just Gordie Howe, and on an awful Rangers team, to boot. Andy Bathgate and Mario Lemieux are the only players in NHL history to win the Hart on non-playoff teams.

I've got Andy Bathgate somewhere in the 6-9 range (depending on taste) all-time among right wings with Geoffrion, Cook and Conacher. Of the group, Bathgate's the guy you draft if you want a stickhandler and playmaker. Gordie Howe holds an advantage over any right wing or even forward not named Gretzky, but Bathgate was an extremely good player, himself, and meshes very well with goalscorers Ullman and Barber. The gap at 1st line RW (and on the first line, in general) is considerably smaller than the gap in goal, in my opinion. Howe vs. Bathgate, speaking in terms of goalies (yeah, I know), would be something like the difference between Plante and Durnan: a sizeable advantage. Dryden vs. Vezina, however, is a completely different order of magnitude.
 
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Rick Middleton

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Yeah, with my workload there's no way in hell that I'm going to get through the full analysis of each position. Here's the uber-truncated version.

Right Wing

Howe > Bathgate.
That's a no-brainer. Bathgate is very good/great. Howe is all-world.

Selanne > Martinec
Martinec was good in his own rights, and dominated his league. Teemu, however, has shone for a longer period and a lot brighter.

MacLean > Gustafsson

Gustafsson had a very long and very respectable career. MacLean's was equally long, equally impressive, and simply brings more in terms of leadership, PK ability, physical play and intangibles than Gustafsson.

Lemieux >= Pappin

Very slight edge to Claude here. Pappin was a very good two-way player. As was Lemieux. Lemieux's ability to get under peoples skin gives him the slight edge.

Overall, Springfields RW core edges out the 67's RW core. Howe's legend can't overcome the significant edge that Springfield has in the 2nd and 3rd lines.
 

chaosrevolver

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Howe scores 2 as Ottawa edges Isotopes

Gordie Howe scored twice in a game where Ken Dryden faced 35 shots in the loss. Final score was 2-1 with Brad Park scoring the other on a Andy Bathgate assist. Syl Apps would have 2 assists for Ottawa. The crowd in Springfield was shockingly upset as Gordie Howe deked out Ken Dryden to score the game winner. With the series now 1-0 in favour of Ottawa, the Isotopes will be forced to win their next game or will end up being down 2-0 in the series.

Three Stars:
1. Gordie Howe - 2 Goals, 0 Assists
2. Ken Dryden - 35 Shots, 2 GA, 33 Saves
3. Syl Apps - 0 Goals, 2 Assists

Ottawa 67's lead the series 1-0.
 

chaosrevolver

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Firsov Scores Only Goal in 1-0 Win

Anatoli Firsov would score the only goal in a 1-0 matchup versus the Springfield Isotopes. Firsov would score at the 6:34 mark of the second period and thanks to great goaltending by both Ken Dryden and Georges Vezina, thats the way the game would end. Ken Dryden faced 40 shots in the loss and Vezina faced 31. With the series now 2-0 for Ottawa, it will be up to Springfield to win at home or be knocked out of the playoffs.

Three Stars:
1. Ken Dryden - 40 Shots, 1 GA, 39 Saves
2. Georges Vezina - 31 Shots, 0 GA, 31 Saves
3. Anatoli Firsov - 1 Goal, 0 Assists

Ottawa 67's lead the series 2-0.
 
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chaosrevolver

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Howe Destroys Isotopes

Gordie Howe would score 3 and assist on 2 Syl Apps goals to give the Ottawa 67's a commanding 3-0 series lead with a 5-1 win. The only goal scored by Springfield would come off the stick of Andy Bathgate. Selanne and Park assisted on Bathgate's goal. Ken Dryden had a heavy load as he faced 48 shots in the loss. Vezina made 24 saves in the win. With the series at 3-0, the Isotopes will have to win 4 straight or suffer elimination.

Three Stars:
1. Gordie Howe - 3 Goals, 2 Assists
2. Syl Apps - 2 Goals, 1 Assist
3. Georges Vezina - 25 Shots, 24 Saves, 1 GA

Ottawa 67's lead the series 3-0.
 

chaosrevolver

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Springfield Counters with Rout

Andy Bathgate would score 2 goals, Park with 1 and 4 assists and Norm Ullman and Teemu Selanne would combine for another 3 goals in a 6-0 win for the Isotopes. Gordie Howe was held to only 3 shots in the game and Apps to only 2. The Isoptopes would score 4 times in the third period to put a seal on this one. 27 shots were fired on Dryden and 36 on Vezina. With the series 3-1, the Isotopes still will need 3 more in a row to take this series.

Three Stars:
1. Andy Bathgate - 2 Goals, 2 Assists
2. Brad Park - 1 Goal, 4 Assists
3. Ken Dryden - 27 Shots, 27 Saves, 0 Goals Against

Ottawa 67's lead the series 3-1.
 

chaosrevolver

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Two in a row cuts series to 3-2!

In a low scoring affair, the Springfield Isotopes would pull away with a 2-1 victory. Gordie Howe had the only goal on Dryden however as a team, Ottawa would pour 42 shots on the legendary goaltender. The goals for the Isotopes were scored by Andy Bathgate and Norm Ullman. Vezina made 21 saves in the loss. 3-2 is now the score of the series. This is a big step for the Isotopes but they still need two more in a row. Can they do it?!

Three Stars:
1. Ken Dryden - 42 Shots, 41 Saves, 1 GA
2. Andy Batgate - 1 Goal
3. Gordie Howe - 1 Goal

Ottawa 67's lead the series 3-2.
 

chaosrevolver

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3-3!!!

Ken Dryden saved the day for Springfield, making 50 saves and not surrendering one single goal. The Isotopes would only score 1 which came off the stick of Brad Park. Andy Bathgate and Teemu Selanne had the only assists on the goal. Vezina faced 23 shots in the loss. 3-3 is now the series!! Springfield goes back home looking to make it 4 straight and an advancement in the series.

Three Stars:
1. Ken Dryden - 50 Shots, 50 Saves, 0 Goals
2. Brad Park - 1 Goal
3. Georges Vezina - 23 Shots, 22 Saves, 1 Goal

Tied series 3-3.
 

chaosrevolver

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Springfield Takes out 67's in series finale!

Andy Bathgate would go one-on-one with Gordie Howe in the finale and though Howe had the better individual performance, Bathgate's team would win in the end. Bathgate would have a goal and an assist while Howe would score 1 and add 2 assists. However, like previously written, Springfield won...the score being 5-3. 44 shots were fired at Ken Dryden but ofcourse Ken Ken was amazing. Vezina made just 26 saves in the loss. Springfield battled back from a 3-0 deficit in the series, to win it 4-3.

Three Stars:
1. Ken Dryden - 44 Shots, 3 GA, 41 Saves
2. Gordie Howe - 1 Goal, 2 Assists
3. Syl Apps - 2 Goals, 1 Assist

Springfield Isotopes win the series 4-3.
 

chaosrevolver

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5star3.jpg

1. Gordie Howe (7 Goals, 5 Assists, 12 Points)
2. Ken Dryden (4-3-0 1.71 GAA .950 SV%)
3. Andy Bathgate (5 Goals, 5 Assists, 10 Points)

Goaltending Statistics
Ken Dryden: 4-3-0, 1.71 GAA, .950 SV%
Georges Vezina: 3-4-0, 2.28 GAA, .910 SV%​

Congratulations to the Springfield Isotopes on the victory. Also congrats to Vthe Ottawa 67's on a hardfought and close series.
 

Sturminator

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Thanks for the write-up, chaos. I appreciate how much work you've put in this round with few writers available. You created some high drama there.

You built a great team, recko, and I can't say I'm looking forward to ever matching up with you again. Thanks for the lively and civil debate. Now we go from Howe to Gretzky. Joy.
 

reckoning

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Congratulations Springfield.

And thanks a lot for getting my hopes up with the 3-0 lead chaos :rant:
 

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