ATD 2012 - Draft Thread VII

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seventieslord

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I'll have to do this later, but I'm pretty sure that you are incorrect in regards to Komisarek and the other guy. The top D pairing was almost always Markov-Komisarek. Perhaps I'm misremembering, and I'll have to look that stuff up later, but I'm going to find out who's right.

Sorry, I had a momentary lapse there. Yes, I know Markov and Komisarek were together as a pairing most often. The spike in Komisarek’s ES time for those two years (in addition to the huge spike for the other guy compared to whoever the other 2nd pairing defenseman would have been) tells me that they were given some extra preference. In Komisarek’s case for sure, it wasn’t for offensive reasons, so it was likely in crucial shutdown moments and the occasional extra defensive zone start, etc. Same with the other guy.

I mean, I know he’s slow, but it’s not like he took an extra minute and a half per game to skate back to the bench… or maybe he did :laugh:
 

Dwight

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Sorry, I had a momentary lapse there. Yes, I know Markov and Komisarek were together as a pairing most often. The spike in Komisarek’s ES time for those two years (in addition to the huge spike for the other guy compared to whoever the other 2nd pairing defenseman would have been) tells me that they were given some extra preference. In Komisarek’s case for sure, it wasn’t for offensive reasons, so it was likely in crucial shutdown moments and the occasional extra defensive zone start, etc. Same with the other guy.

I mean, I know he’s slow, but it’s not like he took an extra minute and a half per game to skate back to the bench… or maybe he did :laugh:

Lol, I honestly can't explain the spike on Komi's ES ice time without taking a look at some quantitative data, but another thing that could be quite interesting to show Markov's talent and value to Montreal is to look at the Habs' record with and without him in the lineup. The difference was quite significant. Again, a project I'll have to dedicate more time to once I have more time to dedicate :D
 

seventieslord

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Lol, I honestly can't explain the spike on Komi's ES ice time without taking a look at some quantitative data, but another thing that could be quite interesting to show Markov's talent and value to Montreal is to look at the Habs' record with and without him in the lineup. The difference was quite significant. Again, a project I'll have to dedicate more time to once I have more time to dedicate :D

oh yeah, no doubt, I'm not disputing that part. But I'm just not sure how accurate it was that he was truly a go-to guy defensively for that whole 4-year period. I always got the impression he was more valuable offensively than defensively.
 

Dwight

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oh yeah, no doubt, I'm not disputing that part. But I'm just not sure how accurate it was that he was truly a go-to guy defensively for that whole 4-year period. I always got the impression he was more valuable offensively than defensively.

Without question he was more valuable offensively than defensively. His real weapon was his brain - a super intelligent player with great vision and the talent to make amazing passes that most players can't.

I think what some people may be arguing (or, at least, what I argue) is that his offensive prowess maybe had a "Sergei Gonchar" effect on people's views of him - they very same thing people do with PK Subban now. They assumed that because he was so good offensively, that he must not be good, or must be lacking defensively, which was not the case. Komisarek, in his prime, was the go-to guy defensively, and when it came to defensive assignments, I might even give "the other guy" at least equal footing with Markov.
 

seventieslord

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Without question he was more valuable offensively than defensively. His real weapon was his brain - a super intelligent player with great vision and the talent to make amazing passes that most players can't.

I think what some people may be arguing (or, at least, what I argue) is that his offensive prowess maybe had a "Sergei Gonchar" effect on people's views of him - they very same thing people do with PK Subban now. They assumed that because he was so good offensively, that he must not be good, or must be lacking defensively, which was not the case. Komisarek, in his prime, was the go-to guy defensively, and when it came to defensive assignments, I might even give "the other guy" at least equal footing with Markov.

Fair enough.. and yeah, Komisarek did used to be a good player for two years, eh? Must have been nice.
 

jarek

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Aug 15, 2009
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I do think Moulson is better, maybe not so much this year, but the fact that this is his third year producing like this gives him a good edge over Parenteau at this time.

If Tavares wasn;t there, both would have fewer points, maybe not that much fewer, because that’s not necessarily how it works, but the team would be much worse overall and those two would be your prototypical “bad team scorersâ€.

I can't say much about the Isles since I don't watch them play, but I think it's really weak to say that Moulson is better because he has one more year of solid production over Parenteau, which I think is heavily mitigated by the fact that Moulson has always played with Tavares, whereas Parenteau, as far as I know, only started to get regular time with him (outside of the PP) this year. If they both had played the same amount of full seasons thus far, and Moulson had one year where he was significantly better, then yeah, it'd be a fine argument to make, but I don't think it's Parenteau's fault that he hasn't had that.. and with what we've seen the last two seasons, if Parenteau did have that third year, he probably would have had 50-60+ points and been on par, or better than Moulson.

You're right that without Tavares, both players would be SOL for production. Who is their next best center, Frans Nielsen? Either way, I do think both guys are quite talented players that will enjoy long, productive careers with Tavares, and I don't think there is much to distinguish them from each other, and it's especially hard to compare them since they play different styles (Parenteau seems more like a playmaker while Moulson is a shoot first guy).

Jarek, I’m sorry, but I think I remember the same thing. If you didn’t actually say it, at the very least you posted a JP quote that said it.

I don't think I said it. If I did, I was a big idiot. MacT was never good enough offensively to warrant being called a two-way player. I didn't draft him to help the checking line offensively.. I drafted him because I thought, at the time, that he was a very strong defensive player.
 

seventieslord

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You're right that without Tavares, both players would be SOL for production. Who is their next best center, Frans Nielsen? Either way, I do think both guys are quite talented players that will enjoy long, productive careers with Tavares, and I don't think there is much to distinguish them from each other, and it's especially hard to compare them since they play different styles (Parenteau seems more like a playmaker while Moulson is a shoot first guy).

Let me elaborate on their Tavares-less production. Because as I said, it doesn’t work “that way†(that they’d be completely SOL) and because I’ve been thinking more about it.

Imagine Tavares suffers a torn ACL in training camp and NYI just promotes from within. Parenteau and Moulson play on the top line and Nielsen moves up. Nielsen is the 3rd best member of this lin. P&M are capable scoring line players, and would likely find a way to get 60 points on a bad team with the prime 1st line and 1st PP opportunities, if they can get 70 with Tavares. Now they’re the ones carrying their linemate. Let’s say Nielsen, as a 1st liner with these two for wingers, gets 50 points. So Instead of 85-70-70, it’s a 60-60-50 line. That’s a loss of 55 points. 55 points comes from approximately 20 goals. Which I think is a fair approximation. Tavares’ GVT for this season will probably come close to 20.

Also, I’m not sure that these guys will enjoy “long productive careers with Tavaresâ€â€¦ they are interchangeable parts, much like all the scoring line players the Leafs have employed the last 5 years. I am pretty sure Tavares secretly expects that the Isles will have drafted much better wingers for him to play with by the time he’s in his prime.
 

Hobnobs

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Let me elaborate on their Tavares-less production. Because as I said, it doesn’t work “that way†(that they’d be completely SOL) and because I’ve been thinking more about it.

Imagine Tavares suffers a torn ACL in training camp and NYI just promotes from within. Parenteau and Moulson play on the top line and Nielsen moves up. Nielsen is the 3rd best member of this lin. P&M are capable scoring line players, and would likely find a way to get 60 points on a bad team with the prime 1st line and 1st PP opportunities, if they can get 70 with Tavares. Now they’re the ones carrying their linemate. Let’s say Nielsen, as a 1st liner with these two for wingers, gets 50 points. So Instead of 85-70-70, it’s a 60-60-50 line. That’s a loss of 55 points. 55 points comes from approximately 20 goals. Which I think is a fair approximation. Tavares’ GVT for this season will probably come close to 20.

Also, I’m not sure that these guys will enjoy “long productive careers with Tavaresâ€â€¦ they are interchangeable parts, much like all the scoring line players the Leafs have employed the last 5 years. I am pretty sure Tavares secretly expects that the Isles will have drafted much better wingers for him to play with by the time he’s in his prime.

Offensively..
 

Leafs Forever

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Jul 14, 2009
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Posts like the above are what really make me scratch my head in this thing. Source this and source that, when does common sense come into play? Who knows, but it's dangerous waters to base our outlooks on players simply from "sources"./

That's how the study of history works. We find sources/evidence and we argue about that. The ATD is largely about intepreting 'sources', in a sense.

I'm not sure what you mean by "common sense", when virtually nothing about any player, including Chapman, gets counted on without a source to back it up.
 

vancityluongo

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I forgot to quote it while browsing through the thread, but that's pretty much on line with what I figured you meant, Sturm. Agreed with what you said.

Wow...I think we've hit the point of arguing just to argue at this point....

Yup. Seems like it's been a really slow few days as far as picks, but we're going through the thread at a faster pace than ever. Hmm.
 

Rob Scuderi

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Sep 3, 2009
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I feel like a contender would be interested in adding Moulson as the final piece of a top six line, but not so much with PA.

There's a thread on the Isles board where they're discussing this exact same thing, but I've just never believed Pareanteau would be anything more than a 4th line "shootout" guy on a contender like he was with the Rags. That's probably fairly ignorant of me to keep that same impression but it's not like the dude's particularly young either. (I realize the other player in this comparison is the posterchid for late-bloomers)
 

EagleBelfour

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It's hard to do being Red Wins' fan.

Considering that Markov basicly lost two years of his prime, after he started to get recognition, i don't see his record that much worse Boyle's or Hatcher's.

And then I've seen them play, an i don't need no stinking Norris record to say that Markov was much more complete and valuable defenceman than Boyle and Gonchar since lockout.

His peak his far shorter than Boyle and Gonchar, but in his few peak seasons, he was undoubtedly better than both of them. He was Lidstrom-lite, as simple as that. Now, he played only 4 seasons that way (2 where I believe he was very much better than Boyle and Gonchar): he cannot play that great of a role on your team. As a #6 with 2ndPP time? Why not.

I'm actaully kind of interested to see what EB says about this new information on Chapman. He's the only GM who responded with any kind of substance when talking about Chapman. Notice how I didn't jump all over his post?

He actually did some research and formed his personal opinion on a player opposed to actually trying to disprove everything I say. He didn't think Chapman had too many intangibles to speak of and i'm fine with that.

Unfortunately, it would be difficult for me to argue back on the point I gave you yesterday, as this was my opinion I had formed after reading through various newspapers last year. I took Vikulov instead and you snap Chapman right after me. However, what I can tell you is that I really took a great deal of hours researching Chapman, so it was at the time a, what I believe, well informed opinion.

Markov's defensive play is light years ahead of Gonchar's. Gonchar got his record based on offense alone.

Markov finished 6th in Norris voting 2 years in a row, then got taken down by injuries

Has he got any other AS voting than those two years? If not, it would he was underrated after the lockout, as he was very much deserving of some kind of recognition among the best D in the league, at least munching some votes here and there.

Can a Habs fan or someone with quick access to QUALCOMP and zone starts confirm this? Looking at ES TOI it doesn’t appear to be the case.

Markov’s peak 4 years are the 2006-2009 seasons.

- In 2006 he was part of a 4-man committee at ES, all ranging from 16:16 to 16:50 per game.
- In 2007 he was the top dog at ES with a one minute lead
- In 2008 and 2009, Komisarek and another guy got heavier ES minutes than everyone else. I am pretty sure this was the top “defensive” pairing that played against top lines.

I'm not very good with minutes played and all that, but he was definitely the Habs best defenceman every season since the lockout, up until his injuries.


ATD 2012 is definitely not an old boys club. I may be the only one out of his early 30s. I'm probably the only one that doesn't do rap, sushi, and texting. ;)

I'm 24, and only do the third one on your list!

Fair enough.. and yeah, Komisarek did used to be a good player for two years, eh? Must have been nice.

Looking at Komisarek to day, you have to wonder just how much a product of Markov's play he was.
 

Leaf Lander

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I select

Al Iafrate

We need moreskulllet and wild thing

Coach: Scotty Bowman

Bobby Hull-Max Bentley-Cam Neely
Wendel Clark-Darryl Sittler-Tod Sloan
Ray Whitney-Brent Sutter-Paul Henderson
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Carl Brewer-Nikolai Sologubov
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Turk Broda
Marc Andre Fleury

Just reuping my roster as it rounds out
 

jarek

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Let me elaborate on their Tavares-less production. Because as I said, it doesn’t work “that way” (that they’d be completely SOL) and because I’ve been thinking more about it.

Imagine Tavares suffers a torn ACL in training camp and NYI just promotes from within. Parenteau and Moulson play on the top line and Nielsen moves up. Nielsen is the 3rd best member of this lin. P&M are capable scoring line players, and would likely find a way to get 60 points on a bad team with the prime 1st line and 1st PP opportunities, if they can get 70 with Tavares. Now they’re the ones carrying their linemate. Let’s say Nielsen, as a 1st liner with these two for wingers, gets 50 points. So Instead of 85-70-70, it’s a 60-60-50 line. That’s a loss of 55 points. 55 points comes from approximately 20 goals. Which I think is a fair approximation. Tavares’ GVT for this season will probably come close to 20.

Also, I’m not sure that these guys will enjoy “long productive careers with Tavares”… they are interchangeable parts, much like all the scoring line players the Leafs have employed the last 5 years. I am pretty sure Tavares secretly expects that the Isles will have drafted much better wingers for him to play with by the time he’s in his prime.

I'm not sure where you're going with that first bit..

As for the third paragraph, how easy do you think it is to replace 70 point players? Last year, 70 points was good for about 24th in league scoring.. among such company as Patrick Sharp, Joe Thornton, Bobby Ryan, Anze Kopitar, etc. That isn't easy to replace, and considering Tavares isn't what I'd call a truly elite talent (like, a guy capable of 90-100+ points), the fact that these two guys can even approach 70 speaks a lot to their actual skill level.

Currently, Parenteau is around the level of guys like Gaborik, Iginla, St. Louis, etc. for scoring (please don't say I'm comparing him to them, this is just where these players currently place in scoring). This is DAMN GOOD production, no matter which team we're talking about. If Tavares wants better linemates, the next stratosphere of linemates would basically be the elite of the NHL.. Sedin, Kovalchuk, Eberle, Neal, etc. These types of guys don't grow on trees. I imagine that Tavares is perfectly happy with the guys he is playing with, guys that are capable of keeping up with him offensively.

So, yeah.. I feel like NYI has one of the better first lines in the league. All three guys are high quality players. If Parenteau and Moulson came over to the Leafs, they would instantly become our 3rd and 4th best players, no questions asked, and that's only if Lupul proves this year wasn't a fluke.

I feel like a contender would be interested in adding Moulson as the final piece of a top six line, but not so much with PA.

There's a thread on the Isles board where they're discussing this exact same thing, but I've just never believed Pareanteau would be anything more than a 4th line "shootout" guy on a contender like he was with the Rags. That's probably fairly ignorant of me to keep that same impression but it's not like the dude's particularly young either. (I realize the other player in this comparison is the posterchid for late-bloomers)

I think part of the problem with Parenteau on the Rangers was that he was getting only 13:41 TOI/G, likely with scrubby linemates, and only 1:42 on the PP. He did get some PP time, but considering the Rangers that year were merely average on the PP (13th @ 18.3%), I don't think it's saying all that much. Parenteau simply lacked the 18:43 (2:56 on the PP) that he's currently getting now.

He had a very impressive year last year considering the expectations, and the fact that he's destroyed those totals this year says that this guy is going to keep getting better for a while. He isn't a big time goal scorer like Moulson or Tavares, but he's shown that he's a very good playmaker for his team. I can't think of ANY team in the NHL who wouldn't want this guy. I think to look at his age and say this is a fluke or something is a big mistake.
 
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BenchBrawl

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Both of Markov 6th votes were a fraud (in a sense he should have been voted higher ) , which is really strange since he played in MTL.I remember it very clearly , and those also happen to be the years where I watched the most hockey overall around the league , and it was clear Markov was underrated in the whole league.Probably the fact MTL was a no-factor even if the ycame outr of no where to lead the conference , it was aq big surprise back then.Markov was elite at both offense and defense , with his greatest strenght being his quarterbacking of PPs.
 

seventieslord

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I'm not sure where you're going with that first bit..

I’m saying their offense wouldn’t completely disappear, or that every goal that they collaborated with Tavares for just wouldn’t happen. You said they’d be “SOL†and that’s not the case. Are you flip flopping here?

As for the third paragraph, how easy do you think it is to replace 70 point players? Last year, 70 points was good for about 24th in league scoring.. among such company as Patrick Sharp, Joe Thornton, Bobby Ryan, Anze Kopitar, etc. That isn't easy to replace, and considering Tavares isn't what I'd call a truly elite talent (like, a guy capable of 90-100+ points), the fact that these two guys can even approach 70 speaks a lot to their actual skill level.

Players who generate 70 points on their own? Very difficult. Players who can score 70 if they develop chemistry with an elite player? Not that hard.

Currently, Parenteau is around the level of guys like Gaborik, Iginla, St. Louis, etc. for scoring (please don't say I'm comparing him to them, this is just where these players currently place in scoring). This is DAMN GOOD production, no matter which team we're talking about. If Tavares wants better linemates, the next stratosphere of linemates would basically be the elite of the NHL.. Sedin, Kovalchuk, Eberle, Neal, etc. These types of guys don't grow on trees. I imagine that Tavares is perfectly happy with the guys he is playing with, guys that are capable of keeping up with him offensively.

So, yeah.. I feel like NYI has one of the better first lines in the league. All three guys are high quality players. If Parenteau and Moulson came over to the Leafs, they would instantly become our 3rd and 4th best players, no questions asked, and that's only if Lupul proves this year wasn't a fluke.

I think part of the problem with Parenteau on the Rangers was that he was getting only 13:41 TOI/G, likely with scrubby linemates, and only 1:42 on the PP. He did get some PP time, but considering the Rangers that year were merely average on the PP (13th @ 18.3%), I don't think it's saying all that much. Parenteau simply lacked the 18:43 (2:56) on the PP that he's currently getting now.

He had a very impressive year last year considering the expectations, and the fact that he's destroyed those totals this year says that this guy is going to keep getting better for a while. He isn't a big time goal scorer like Moulson or Tavares, but he's shown that he's a very good playmaker for his team. I can't think of ANY team in the NHL who wouldn't want this guy. I think to look at his age and say this is a fluke or something is a big mistake.

You’ll see… they are interchangeable plugs. They had to get to the second sorriest franchise in the NHL to become regulars. They played a combined 8 AHL seasons after playing out their junior/college years before catching on.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
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Both of Markov 6th votes were a fraud (in a sense he should have been voted higher ) , which is really strange since he played in MTL.I remember it very clearly , and those also happen to be the years where I watched the most hockey overall around the league , and it was clear Markov was underrated in the whole league.Probably the fact MTL was a no-factor even if the ycame outr of no where to lead the conference , it was aq big surprise back then.Markov was elite at both offense and defense , with his greatest strenght being his quarterbacking of PPs.

he finished 6th, and you think he deserved to be higher? Over those four years I don't recall him being known as much more than a lowe-end top-10 guy, at best.
 
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