ATD 2011 Line-up Assassination Thread

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,981
Brooklyn
I think my divisional review should count for a 1/2 review for all 5 teams ;)

EB, TDMM, Modo, Monster_B, and DaveG

I have also made comments on quite a few teams - definitely the nighthawks team and mark rander's team but also others - that should count as 0.25 :laugh:

Gwinnett has 2 reviews in pretty sure and are listed at 1 (I did the second one)

Edit: Detroit red wings definitely have two reviews - I did the second one.
 
Last edited:

Dreakmur

Registered User
Mar 25, 2008
18,643
6,897
Orillia, Ontario
After Dickie Moore and Geoffrion retired, who did Beliveau play with? Serious question. I know he often played with Dick Duff (no better than Prentice) or Ferguson (goon) on the left side. Cournoyer eventually ended up on the right side, I think, but I know there's a period of time when Cournoyer only played on powerplays because his defensive game was so poor as a young player.

Bobby Rousseau was his RW for a few years between Geoffrion and Cournoyer, wasn't he?

I know where you're going with this, and it doesn't effect the time period that I used. Bathgate's 5 and 10 year peaks were 1959-1963 and 1956-1965, so Beliveau benefited from top-notch linemates from all of that 5 year prime and 9 years of the 10 year prime.

Geoffrion played on Beliveau's wing untill 1964. Dickie Moore played untill 1963, and I'm pretty sure he was there full time once Olmstead left in 1958.
 

MadArcand

Whaletarded
Dec 19, 2006
5,872
411
Seat of the Empire
Gah! I hope I can get in an assasination or two tomorrow. Work's been hell lately, our team was moved to a different department and the new boss pays more attention to what we actually do, plus a bloody project spawned up somehow and eats away my time that'd be better spent on ATD. :rant:
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,981
Brooklyn
Bobby Rousseau was his RW for a few years between Geoffrion and Cournoyer, wasn't he?

I know where you're going with this, and it doesn't effect the time period that I used. Bathgate's 5 and 10 year peaks were 1959-1963 and 1956-1965, so Beliveau benefited from top-notch linemates from all of that 5 year prime and 9 years of the 10 year prime.

Geoffrion played on Beliveau's wing untill 1964. Dickie Moore played untill 1963, and I'm pretty sure he was there full time once Olmstead left in 1958.

I think you're right about Rosseau. Not sure if you're right about Moore - I thought Moore-Richard-Richard was together until the Rocket retired, but I could be wrong about their left wing.

I know Harvey was traded after 60-61 and the Habs didn't have anyone to come close to replacing his puck movement until JC Tremblay matured. I know this really hurt Beliveau in particular in the playoffs, as he was the type of guy who was dominant in the offensive zone but not as good as someone like Henri Richard at bringing the puck up ice. Not sure if how it may have affected his revisit season stats though.

How long did Bathgate have Gadsby in NY?

Anyway, the upshot of this is that I do realize that Bathgate and Beliveau produced similar offense in the regular season. But I'm far from convinced that Bathgate was held back by the team he played on.
 

jarek

Registered User
Aug 15, 2009
10,004
238
At the end of the day, Bathgate did what he did, and nothing else matters. His draft position and all time ranking is reflected in his legacy, and his legacy is that of a high scoring winger on a weak team for a very long time. If he was on a better team, and scored more because of it (and there is absolutely no proof that he would have been a higher scorer on a better team), then he would be higher up on an all time ranking list.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,981
Brooklyn
At the end of the day, Bathgate did what he did, and nothing else matters. His draft position and all time ranking is reflected in his legacy, and his legacy is that of a high scoring winger on a weak team for a very long time. If he was on a better team, and scored more because of it (and there is absolutely no proof that he would have been a higher scorer on a better team), then he would be higher up on an all time ranking list.

I think that if there is good and specific evidence that a player's offensive stats were held back by his team (like Frank Mahovlich on Toronto and perhaps Patrik Elias in NJ) or helped by his team (like Ron Francis when he went to Pittsburgh or a variety of Bruins after Orr came to town), that we should look at it.

I don't think that playing on a stacked team when you are arguably the biggest force driving that team's success (like Beliveau) is good enough evidence to consider team effects.
 

jarek

Registered User
Aug 15, 2009
10,004
238
I think that if there is good and specific evidence that a player's offensive stats were held back by his team (like Frank Mahovlich on Toronto and perhaps Patrik Elias in NJ) or helped by his team (like Ron Francis when he went to Pittsburgh or a variety of Bruins after Orr came to town), that we should look at it.

I don't think that playing on a stacked team when you are arguably the biggest force driving that team's success (like Beliveau) is good enough evidence to consider team effects.

Again.. the guy's legacy is reflected in his draft position and all time ranking. Just because Mahovlich MIGHT have suffered offensively because of his coach, does not mean that he actually did. There is nothing, absolutely nothing to prove that he would have done any better on a better team. There are so many examples of a guy going to a "better team", even recently, and then not really exploding like we thought he would.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,981
Brooklyn
Again.. the guy's legacy is reflected in his draft position and all time ranking. Just because Mahovlich MIGHT have suffered offensively because of his coach, does not mean that he actually did. There is nothing, absolutely nothing to prove that he would have done any better on a better team. There are so many examples of a guy going to a "better team", even recently, and then not really exploding like we thought he would.

Mahovlich did suffer offensively because of his coach. There is no "might" about it. Look at how he exploded when he moved from Toronto to Montreal. Much ink has been spilled about the relationship between Punch Imlach and Frank. To the extent that you say his draft position reflects this, you are correct I think. It is definitely reflected in the HOH top 100 list, where it was discussed in length.

Punch's Leafs ran one of the tightest defensive systems ever.
 

jarek

Registered User
Aug 15, 2009
10,004
238
Mahovlich did suffer offensively because of his coach. There is no "might" about it. Look at how he exploded when he moved from Toronto to Montreal. Much ink has been spilled about the relationship between Punch Imlach and Frank. To the extent that you say his draft position reflects this, you are correct I think. It is definitely reflected in the HOH top 100 list, where it was discussed in length.

Punch's Leafs ran one of the tightest defensive systems ever.

Right.. and BECAUSE his draft position and all-time rank reflect this, why should we give him any more credit for something he didn't do? I feel the same way about the war years, as well.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,981
Brooklyn
Right.. and BECAUSE his draft position and all-time rank reflect this, why should we give him any more credit for something he didn't do? I feel the same way about the war years, as well.

If you're talking about draft position for players who are known commodities, I agree with you. The effects of losing 3.5 prime years to WW2 is already reflected into Milt Scmidt's draft position, for example.
 

Dreakmur

Registered User
Mar 25, 2008
18,643
6,897
Orillia, Ontario
I think you're right about Rosseau. Not sure if you're right about Moore - I thought Moore-Richard-Richard was together until the Rocket retired, but I could be wrong about their left wing.

Moore played all over the place for a long time. Once Olmstead left, I'm pretty sure Moore played with Beliveau untill Ferguson arrived. The scoring numbers certianly indicate that.

I know Harvey was traded after 60-61 and the Habs didn't have anyone to come close to replacing his puck movement until JC Tremblay matured. I know this really hurt Beliveau in particular in the playoffs, as he was the type of guy who was dominant in the offensive zone but not as good as someone like Henri Richard at bringing the puck up ice. Not sure if how it may have affected his revisit season stats though.

If you are correct that Beliveau relied on his teammates to bring the puck into the offensive zone, doesn't that prove he benefited from playing with excellent players? If he was in Bathgate's shoes, and he was the guy who aways had the puck, would he be able to create all that offense by himself?

How long did Bathgate have Gadsby in NY?

About 5 years.

Anyway, the upshot of this is that I do realize that Bathgate and Beliveau produced similar offense in the regular season. But I'm far from convinced that Bathgate was held back by the team he played on.

You really don't think that Bathgate would have got more points if he had even one good scoring linemate? If he was a one man goalscoring show, I could see your point, but he was a playmaker.

Guys like Pavel Bure and Ilya Kovalchuk just did it themselves, but Andy Bathgate actually used his teammates. He was a tactician who drew opponents to him, waited for his buddies to get open, and set them up to score. The problem was he was passing to no-talent grinders. The guy ruled the NHL in playmaking while he was passing to a bunch of dregs.

What would his point totals look like if you replaced Dean Prentice with Frank Mahovlich? You don't think his scoring totals would rise by making that one change?
 

Dreakmur

Registered User
Mar 25, 2008
18,643
6,897
Orillia, Ontario
Mahovlich did suffer offensively because of his coach. There is no "might" about it. Look at how he exploded when he moved from Toronto to Montreal.

He hardly exploded in Montreal. His goal scoring actually dropped off. He did start to get quite a few assists though. I wonder if that had anything to do with playing for the second best offensive team in the league..... ;)
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,168
7,303
Regina, SK
Is it too late to request another review of my team?

DETROIT RIOTS
etick_bing23_412.jpg


Manager: HomeNugget

Head Coach: Jack Adams
Assistant Coach: Paul MacLean
Captain: Gordie Howe
Alternate Captains:Jack Stewart, Ching Johnson

ROSTER
Charlie Simmer - Marcel Dionne - Gordie Howe
Adam Graves - Joe Thornton - Theo Fleury
Yvon Lambert - Ken Linseman - Yevgeny Babich
Dave Schultz - Billy Taylor - Mickey Redmond

Spares: Rob Neidermayer, Manny Malhotra

Jack Stewart - Randy Carlyle
Reed Larson - Ching Johnson
Duncan Keith -Alexander Gusev

Spares: Luke Richardson

Ed Giacomin
Olaf Kolzig

PP1: Simmer - Dionne - Howe - Carlyle - Keith

PP2: Graves - Thornton - Fleury - Larson - Stewart

PK1: Linseman - Lambert - Stewart - Johnson

PK2: Taylor - Howe - Keith - Carlyle

Good first entry.

You ended up with a coach that's definitely in the top half of the draft. Maybe not the top-10 but close. What do I like about your personnel with Adams as the coach? Well, you got his boy Howe. You also have Dave Schultz on a 4th line (that he's not a very good player is another story) and you have Jack Stewart (one of the few toughest players of all-time) and Ching Johnson on the blueline. Adams liked goon hockey. I just read the other day, that he would imply that he wanted his troops to target guys just coming back from injury. Those three players are not above that, not at all. What don't I like? For a perfectly symbiotic relationship, you may have wanted to give him a bang and crash line he can really count on. Billy Taylor and Mickey Redmond... well, they're a different way to build a 4th line, but not my way, and I don't think it's Adams' way.

First line has Howe on it so it's good by default. Seriously. In my books, Howe's the best of all-time. Dionne is well within the top half of first line centers, and although I am not a fan of Simmer on a 1st line, he's next to the guy that made him an ATD-caliber player, so that can only be a good thing. It's hard to not have a well-built line with Howe on it, because anything his linemates can't do, he can. This line works.

Joe Thornton, years ago, made us forget about the gritty style he used to play. he's a perimeter player, but oh my, can he make plays from there. And I am not one who thinks those points are worth less than they would be from a more involved player. (unless he's literally causing more goals against, but he doesn't) - I think you got him a good set of linemates who will go into the dirtiest areas of the ice. in fact, you almost won't see a better pair of grinding 2nd line wingers - in terms of guts, that is. Fleury is skilled enough to play on a 1st line, but Graves, with his one season as a top-50 scorer, should probably be on an ATD 4th line. Love what he brings to the table, but he's not too much better than Hadfield, IMO. Thornton will generate some offense no matter who he plays with, and he's among the better 2nd line centers here. Fleury can both score and make plays like few post-euro players can. His playoff prowess will help to keep Thornton involved when the games get tight as well. This line works.

Not a huge fan of the 3rd line, but looking around the league, it ain't bad, either. You have a couple of decent two-way gritty guys. Nothing shutdown, but solid. I'd prefer to have someone tougher with Linseman to clean up the messes he makes. Babich is a total unknown in terms of what his all-time value really is. Many of us are not sold on Bobrov, who might not have ever been one of the 10 best LWs in the world, being on an ATD scoring line. So what to make of his linemate and servant, Babich? He was infinitely less talented than Seve, but then at the same time, his 3rd/4th line skill set is enticing. He's fearless, unselfish and a great team player. Expect opinions on Babich (and therefore likely the whole line) to vary greatly.

The 4th line seems like a bit of a mishmash to me. I feel like Taylor and Redmond are there to be offensive ringers, but your top-6 is going to score - you don't need offensive ringers! They add little to the lineup in terms of grit, defense, and momentum changing capabilities. The good news is that in Malhotra and Niedermayer, you have what it takes to make a true energy line. Not a great one. But at least a cohesive one with a purpose. Niedermayer belongs in the MLD, Malhotra below that (But I did almost take him after we got down to 1800 picks), and Schultz could be an MLD enforcer too so it's not like these are off-the-board scrubs, but lower-tier for ATD players, almost inevitable for a newbie team.

Stewart is a lower-tier but legitimate #1. I personally consider Ching Johnson to be your #2, and he's a very good one. Carlyle gets dismissed a little bit, as a guy who won a Norris, was 8th in voting once, and didn't do anything else for the rest of his career. Well, that is true, as long as you consider being a #1 defenseman for six other seasons to be nothing. Carlyle is a good #3. He provides some puck-moving ability, which is good, because I don't think Stewart really does.

How is Reed Larson as a puckmover? I imagine pretty good, but I can't say for sure. He has the big PP bomb, and he's very subpar defensively, (so it's wise that he's paired up with a guy like Ching, who they said was the hardest guy to get around back then) but I don't know if his big numbers show he was a good puck mover, or just a really really good PP specialist. Either way, I think it's a good yin-yang combination. With 40 teams, and with a partner like that, Larson probably isn't out of place.

It's funny that you should have Keith, because he's going to end up having a Randy Carlyle career... plus a cup. He is a late bloomer and won a norris seemingly out of nowhere at age 27, and same as Carlyle, has been a #1 defenseman for basically his whole career so far. He brings good all-around skills, although I don't think he does any one thing very well at the ATD level. Which is fine, he's a 3rd-pairing guy. No complaints about Gusev on a 3rd pairing either.

Giacomin is a well-below average ATD first string goalie. I'm not as high on him as some might be. I've been compelled recently by an argument that he won his 1st team all-stars by playing more games as other teams began to platoon goalies. Almost by default. Though I am sure he was good, I do wonder how good. He's got playoff issues too. But, you did well getting Kolzig for him, as he's got one of the highest career sv% of all-time. I'm sure after a dead puck era adjustment he'd still be in the top-10. Aside from 1998, his teams never won much, but it wasn't his fault.

Luke Richardson is an MLD #6 defenseman at best. Hopefully you don't need to use him all that much.

Why on earth would Reed Larson not be on your #1 PP? Why draft him otherwise?

Graves also needs to come off that 2nd PP unit. If you must have your offensive ringers on the 4th line - use them! Don't worry so much about putting a RW or C on the left side if it's just for the PP. I would pick Redmond, personally. Thornton feeding him and his rocket shot on the PP sounds pretty nice.

Did Billy Taylor kill penalties? I realize that with your lineup set up the way it is, you don't have many options though. Malhotra would of course fix that.

I would normally prefer Howe wears just an A, not a C. But I don't see better options here. Stewart and Johnson are good assistants, probably your best two. These three can lead by committee.

A great newbie team.
 

VMBM

And it didn't even bring me down
Sep 24, 2008
3,814
763
Helsinki, Finland
It's not obvious to me. What makes you think so? Those great Soviet teams of the 70's were always two units deep of excellent players. At forward they had the Red Army line, and they could follow it up with players like Yakushev, Maltsev, Shadrin and Vikulov. Did the early 80's Soviets have similar forward depth? I guess Maltsev was still playing in the early 80's, but what other second unit stars did they have?

Ever heard of the Kapustin-Shepelev-Shalimov line that was arguably their best forward line in the 1981 Canada Cup and 1982 WC? Okay, Shalimov and Kapustin were in their late 20s by that time, and the line didn't last more than a couple of seasons. But only in the 1983 WC did KLM (+ F and K) really start to carry the team, so to speak.
Vladimir Golikov was a pretty hot player in the late Seventies and early 1980s.

Andrei Khomutov and Vyacheslav Bykov are really underrated around here IMO; they weren't maybe forces in the early Eighties yet, but the Khomutov-Bykov-Kamensky line did rival KLM later on; for example, they scored 6 goals in the 1987 Canada Cup finals (despite the great play of both Makarov and Krutov, KLM scored 'only' 4 goals) and were without a shadow of a doubt the best USSR forward line in the 1989 WC.

You have a point, though, in that on paper the 1970s USSR looks stronger than the 1980s version, but when you actually look at the results, the 1980s Soviets were definitely more succesful and a lot harder to beat. In the 1980s, I think they only lost 2 world championship games (both in 1985), whereas the 1970s team(s) lost numerous and numerous games, mostly to Chechoslovakia, but also to Sweden in 1970, 1976 and twice in 1977 and - lo and behold - to Poland in 1976 (clearly a total fluke, but still). Watching games from the 1970s and 1980s, to me the 1980s teams generally look better, faster and more difficult to beat. How much of this can be credited to Tikhonov (obviously a much better coach than Kulagin and Bobrov) and his improved training methods/discipline etc. and how much to the actual players themselves, is debatable, of course. Maybe the lack of opponent as good as the 1970s Czechoslovakia (in Europe) also made it easier for them, I DON'T KNOW.

And about 1980 Lake Placid, well, that team still had Mikhailov, Petrov, Kharlamov, Maltsev, Lebedev... I don't think the '1980s players' should get all the blame for the loss. Anyway, it was their last significant loss until the semi-final of the 1984 Canada Cup.
 
Last edited:

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,295
6,489
South Korea
Andrei Khomutov and Vyacheslav Bykov are really underrated around here IMO; they weren't maybe forces in the early Eighties yet, but the Khomutov-Bykov-Kamensky line did rival KLM later on.
I was the first to ever draft Khomutov around here and amazingly the three of them were available and drafted in MLD11 to play together:

Laval Titan

Head Coach: Lindy Ruff

Captain: Jamie Macoun
Assistant Captains: Slava Bykov, Jamie Langenbrunner

Valeri Kamensky - Slava Bykov (A) - Andrei Khomutov
John Ogrodnick - Don Raleigh - Jimmy Ward
Rejean Houle - Wayne Merrick - Jamie Langenbrunner (A)
Kelly Miller - Mike Ridley - Scott Mellanby
Dave Schultz, Jason Allison

Brian Engblom - Jamie Macoun (C)
Alexei Gusarov - Gary Galley
Mario Marois - Miroslav Dvorak
Warren Godfrey

Jim Henry
Ed Johnston​
The team was lowly ranked and bounced early in the playoffs, but that first line was stellar.
 

VMBM

And it didn't even bring me down
Sep 24, 2008
3,814
763
Helsinki, Finland
I was the first to ever draft Khomutov around here and amazingly the three of them were available and drafted in MLD11 to play together:


The team was lowly ranked and bounced early in the playoffs, but that first line was stellar.

Hello, Mr. Controversy.

I think Bykov as a center is certainly not much worse than, say, Shadrin and - don't kill me EagleBelfour - the same thing with Khomutov vis-à-vis Vikulov. I know that I can't really back that up by quotes and stats and whatnot, but I believe my eyes on that one. Watch the 1987 Canada Cup finals and 1987 Rendez-Vous - and lay your eyes off KLM for once - and you know what I'm talking about. I'm especially fond of Bykov, the little center. There are those who think that he was actually a better center than Larionov in the late Eighties; it is very hypothetical, alright, but not something I would dismiss totally.

By the way, in the future - as a sort of homework - IMO every ATD'er should get themselves aquainted with the 1972 Summit series and 1987 Canada Cup finals (AT LEAST those two); both series have been released on DVD and are pretty easy to find and are not overly expensive. I mean, that's pretty essential viewing material for hockey historians. Just a suggestion...
 

markrander87

Registered User
Jan 22, 2010
4,216
61
TDMM, I really hope you get an opportunity to tear into my team. It's probably my highlight of the draft.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,168
7,303
Regina, SK
I was the first to ever draft Khomutov around here and amazingly the three of them were available and drafted in MLD11 to play together:
.

I can see Bykov as a useful plucky 4th liner, but why is it so amazing that Khomutov and Kamensky were available?

Khomutov was the Soviet league MVP as he was right in his prime when the five players better than him left. He's a scoring line player, is he good enough to crack the top-50 offensively to get on a 2nd line with 30 teams? (I say 50 because there will always be glue guys who deserve roles there too)

Kamensky, same thing. He was in the NHL from age 25-35 (good years to show what you can do) and topped out at 26th and 27th in scoring, with very good centers. Milan Hejduk parlayed his time with Sakic and Forsberg into a career with multiple top-10s in goals, just as an example, and even he is not a universally accepted 2nd liner with 30 teams.

Heh, I'd also like a review from TDMM or seventies (or any other big review) :laugh:. I accumulated 2.5 reviews' worth of short reviews.

I appreciate that you singled me out :thumbu:

But I can't say there's a good chance I'll be reviewing you.

Today/tonight I hope to get one review done, maybe two. But we have two newbies who've received 1.0 review each, and they need the feedback for this draft and the next.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,981
Brooklyn
Appreciate the requests. Have no idea if I'll have time to do more before the playoffs start. Jkrx also requested a review via PM

Edit: I should have time for jkrx at least.
 
Last edited:

overpass

Registered User
Jun 7, 2007
5,271
2,808
Appreciate the requests. Have no idea if I'll have time to do more before the playoffs start. Jkrx also requested a review via PM

Edit: I should have time for jkrx at least.

TDMM, you've become the new king of assassinations since GBC left.

Or did he leave? Someone check the IPs to make sure TDMM isn't posting from the Bentley family reunion :)
 

overpass

Registered User
Jun 7, 2007
5,271
2,808
Hello, Mr. Controversy.

I think Bykov as a center is certainly not much worse than, say, Shadrin and - don't kill me EagleBelfour - the same thing with Khomutov vis-à-vis Vikulov. I know that I can't really back that up by quotes and stats and whatnot, but I believe my eyes on that one. Watch the 1987 Canada Cup finals and 1987 Rendez-Vous - and lay your eyes off KLM for once - and you know what I'm talking about. I'm especially fond of Bykov, the little center. There are those who think that he was actually a better center than Larionov in the late Eighties; it is very hypothetical, alright, but not something I would dismiss totally.

By the way, in the future - as a sort of homework - IMO every ATD'er should get themselves aquainted with the 1972 Summit series and 1987 Canada Cup finals (AT LEAST those two); both series have been released on DVD and are pretty easy to find and are not overly expensive. I mean, that's pretty essential viewing material for hockey historians. Just a suggestion...

Second the homework suggestion. I watched those in the last year. Very entertaining and much better than just reading about history.
 

VMBM

And it didn't even bring me down
Sep 24, 2008
3,814
763
Helsinki, Finland
Second the homework suggestion. I watched those in the last year. Very entertaining and much better than just reading about history.

It would be very useful, since both serieses have so many of the players that are being drafted/discussed here. And there would be a lot of less confusion (who played with who in what game etc.) - especially in the Summit series both teams had lots of different line formations. And hey, maybe this way Yuri Lyapkin wouldn't get all the blame for the Henderson goal in 1972 (I mean, wasn't it actually Vasiliev who mishandled & gave up the puck?) :naughty:

They'd be a great complement to the statistics, quotes and so forth.

I was actually a bit shocked to learn how few posters seem to watch/own classic games.
 
Last edited:

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad