ATD 2011 Draft Thread II

[Sturminator]

When ATD members compare players, they are comparing careers and impact, correct? There is absolutely no way anyone from the 30's to maybe 60's is BETTER than Ovie, yeah I haven't seen them play, but it's plain physics.

You have it exactly. There is no accepted formula, but we try to compare a player to the best players in the world at the time and then compare that group of players against the whole continuum of hockey history. It's not an exact science, and intelligent minds may disagree. Some eras seem stronger and some seem weaker. I, for example, take a pretty sharp knife to scoring finishes in the 40-41 to 45-46 timeframe simply because the league was so weak during that period. I also see a lot of weakness in the league outside of Montreal in the late 50's, for example, and the early 70's look a little soft. The more knowledge you have of the whole of hockey history, the more specific you can be in weighing a player's accomplishments vs. "the field" - that is, relative to the big picture.

I also agree with BraveCanadian. I can't understand a player's "greatness" if I haven't seen him play. I'm too young to remember watching Gretz and Lemieux play, so I stay away from any arguments about those two. I guess all we have is hearsay, statistics (which can be deceiving) and quotes. For the record, the "best" player I've seen play is Crosby, and Jagr with Rangers those first couple of years was great.

Hold tight. Through the wonders of modern technology, we now have access to a great number of first-hand accounts of game action from 100+ years ago through the present. Seriously, there is enough information available on the internet to render even The Trail of the Stanley Cup obsolete. ATD 2011 may well be a watershed event in hockey scholarship, not only on these boards, but in general.

 

[Leafs Forever]

Jarek select LW Cyrill Denneny

I think Denneny is better than both Moore and OV

 

[jkrx]

Denneny is a favorite of mine but nonetheless its a very good choice.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I think Denneny is better than both Moore and OV

We were considering taking Denneny over Ovechkin, but I read that he was "an average skater at best." With Fedorov as our center we wanted a better skater who would be able to keep up with him.

 

[Velociraptor]

I think Denneny is better than both Moore and OV

That'd be a good debate, I obviously never watched Denneny nor Moore, but some could definitely argue Denneny is better than both. I think the explosiveness in OV's game builds him up. He's potentially the best choice for an extra attacker at any time. I'm looking forward to reading bios on Denneny and Moore to learn comparisons between them and OV, obviously with era differences, but it's interesting for sure. And after reading jarek's three day Earl Seibert lecture, I'd say we'll get a similar one for Denneny

 

[Stoneberg]

The Mooseheads are pleasted to select their captain, LW, Toe Blake.

 

[Leafs Forever]

We were considering taking Denneny over Ovechkin, but I read that he was "an average skater at best." With Fedorov as our center we wanted a better skater who would be able to keep up with him.

Certainly sensible.

That'd be a good debate, I obviously never watched Denneny nor Moore, but some could definitely argue Denneny is better than both. I think the explosiveness in OV's game builds him up. He's potentially the best choice for an extra attacker at any time. I'm looking forward to reading bios on Denneny and Moore to learn comparisons between them and OV, obviously with era differences, but it's interesting for sure. And after reading jarek's three day Earl Seibert lecture, I'd say we'll get a similar one for Denneny

I made the biggest bio ever for Denneny at the last LC one,

Newspaper Quote portion: http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=28104170&postcount=30

Bio Portion mostly by Dreakmur: http://leafscentral.co.uk/forum/sho...III-Bio-Thread?p=464575&viewfull=1#post464575

Essentially I went out of my way to try and stop all the overblown questioning of Denneny- his speed, his defense, his individuality, his passing ability, his ability to do just about everything beside shoot the puck effectively.

He's never going to be called fast, but I see a lack of reason to call him slow. He was never outed as being really good or bad defensively, but he did play in a five-man defense system for quite some time and didn't seem to stand out, which implies he can work in a defensive structure. Plenty of quote and stats for his passing and teamwork, and he liked to drive the net and get a rebound as much if not more as he liked to snipe from afar, which makes me think him a good crease-guy on a PP.

In short, the perceived flaws are overblown and then he has all that extreme dominance offensively in the 1919-1927 time period. Though he came from a weaker period perhaps than either Moore or OV, his dominance is as good if not better for a rather longer period of time.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Hold tight. Through the wonders of modern technology, we now have access to a great number of first-hand accounts of game action from 100+ years ago through the present. Seriously, there is enough information available on the internet to render even The Trail of the Stanley Cup obsolete. ATD 2011 may well be a watershed event in hockey scholarship, not only on these boards, but in general.

I agree that we have a lot of search ability for news articles, statistics etc. of the time, but that pales in comparison to actually seeing the players you are trying to compare.

Sports journalists suffer from some pretty good homerism at times too.

 

[Leafs Forever]

I agree that we have a lot of search ability for news articles, statistics etc. of the time, but that pales in comparison to actually seeing the players you are trying to compare.

Sports journalists suffer from some pretty good homerism at times too.

So do sports fans.

 

[Velociraptor]

Certainly sensible.



I made the biggest bio ever for Denneny at the last LC one,

Newspaper Quote portion: http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=28104170&postcount=30

Bio Portion mostly by Dreakmur: http://leafscentral.co.uk/forum/sho...III-Bio-Thread?p=464575&viewfull=1#post464575

Essentially I went out of my way to try and stop all the overblown questioning of Denneny- his speed, his defense, his individuality, his passing ability, his ability to do just about everything beside shoot the puck effectively.

He's never going to be called fast, but I see a lack of reason to call him slow. He was never outed as being really good or bad defensively, but he did play in a five-man defense system for quite some time and didn't seem to stand out, which implies he can work in a defensive structure. Plenty of quote and stats for his passing and teamwork, and he liked to drive the net and get a rebound as much if not more as he liked to snipe from afar, which makes me think him a good crease-guy on a PP.

In short, the perceived flaws are overblown and then he has all that extreme dominance offensively in the 1919-1927 time period. Though he came from a weaker period perhaps than either Moore or OV, his dominance is as good if not better for a rather longer period of time.

Thanks LF! I'll definitely have a good read through this. Does Nalyd usually write bios? I'd like to see what he has to say about Moore. I'd dig up some past ATD bios if not.

 

[BraveCanadian]

So do sports fans.

Yeah that is why they are called "fans".. so?

 

[Leafs Forever]

Yeah.. so?

Point being I don't see how sports journalists eyes are really worse, if at all, then our own. Both suffer from the same flaws.

 

[jarek]

This is just the beginning of my quest to show that Denneny is a worthy top-70 player:

$3.95 - New York Times - Dec 15, 1926
Both last night s goals were made by the swift Cy Denneny early in the opening period of the game. Cy was reported recently to have been in an automobile ...

I don't necessarily have time to do anything on him today, but expect my biggest project ever done by the end of the week.

 

[MadArcand]

Busher Jackson, LW

Arrbez has been PMed.

 

[Stoneberg]

Nice pick. I was between Jackson and Blake but just had Jackson over at leafs central.

 

[Sturminator]

I agree that we have a lot of search ability for news articles, statistics etc. of the time, but that pales in comparison to actually seeing the players you are trying to compare.

Sports journalists suffer from some pretty good homerism at times too.

Of course. The best scenario is when one can get neutral third party "day after" game reports. Comparison of the reporting of the same game between publications can also shed light on just how much the papers, themselves, were presenting a slanted view of events.

There are also a great number of facts (injuries, who scored goals when, etc.) that are basically indisputable once known, and quite valuable, even without the descriptive aspects associated with reporting. You're right, though, that we must always take the qualitative aspects of game reports and player descriptions in their proper context.

 

[Sturminator]

I'll give you a little tip, jarek. Take out a monthly subsctiption with the Times and you will have unlimited access to all pay-per-view articles. The monthly subscription costs $20.00, and can be cancelled at any time. They charge weekly (it's about $5.00 per week), so if you take out a monthly subscription, make local copies of 500 PDF articles and then cancel the subscription 6 days later, you've gotten all of that material for about $5.00. It's a much better deal if you've got the time to do your research en masse.

 

[vecens24]

Busher Jackson, LW

Arrbez has been PMed.

We're between two guys right now. Just need to hear back from arrbez. We will be selecting shortly most likely. Basically as soon as he gets online.

 

[jarek]

I'll give you a little tip, jarek. Take out a monthly subsctiption with the Times and you will have unlimited access to all pay-per-view articles. The monthly subscription costs $20.00, and can be cancelled at any time. They charge weekly (it's about $5.00 per week), so if you take out a monthly subscription, make local copies of 500 PDF articles and then cancel the subscription 6 days later, you've gotten all of that material for about $5.00. It's a much better deal if you've got the time to do your research en masse.

I already bought it. I've been looking through one article and it's just gold after gold.

"Clever pokechecking by ***** and Denneny on the Ottawa forward line often broke up New York attacks almost before they got started"

"They (Ottawa forwads) slipped swiftly through the New York defense and Denneny taking a nice pass from *****, scored the first counter of the game on an angle shot that ***** could not block."

 

[arrbez]

Inglewood selects a tremendous all-around player whose versatility should give us a lot of options going forward:

Alex Delvecchio

We were torn on this pick between Delvecchio and a guy with a higher offensive peak. But we found that the complete package Delvecchio brings to the table is just too hard to ignore. Basically 20 straight years of high-end play, eleven top-10 scoring finishes, a strong playoff resume featuring 3 Stanley Cups, an excellent defensive game, size, skating, leadership, class, and the rare ability to play both centre and wing at a similarly high level. We love this pick because of the options it gives us going forward in the draft.

 

[jarek]

One more:

"At the forward line are Frank Nighbor at center and **** and Cy Denneny at the wing positions. Here is a trio that can sweep down the rink with unison and with speed"

 

[jarek]

If you look at Delvecchio vs. Sundin offensive finishes as percentages of 2nd place within their own eras, Sundin's numbers come out shockingly close to Delvecchio's. If Sundin can't be a scoring line player, then neither can Delvecchio, IMO.

 

[vecens24]

If you look at Delvecchio vs. Sundin offensive finishes as percentages of 2nd place within their own eras, Sundin's numbers come out shockingly close to Delvecchio's. If Sundin can't be a scoring line player, then neither can Delvecchio, IMO.

Well seeing as how Sundin went 50 picks ago or so I feel pretty good about our value here

 

[arrbez]

If you look at Delvecchio vs. Sundin offensive finishes as percentages of 2nd place within their own eras, Sundin's numbers come out shockingly close to Delvecchio's. If Sundin can't be a scoring line player, then neither can Delvecchio, IMO.

Who said Sundin can't be a scoring line player?

 

[jarek]

A lot of people wrote off Sundin when he got taken. I'm here to tell you that Delvecchio is no better than Sundin offensively.