ATD #11, Foster Hewitt Final. Boston Bruins (1) vs. Minnesota Fighting Saints (3)

EagleBelfour

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Boston Bruins

Coach: Al Arbour
Captain: Bill Cook
Assistant Captains: Hap Day, Peter Stastny

#10 Alex Delvecchio - #6 Frank Nighbor - #5 Bill Cook (c)
#71 John LeClair - #26 Peter Stastny (a) - #13 Vladimir Martinec
#12 J.P. Parise - #20 Don McKenney - #11 Harry Hyland
#7 Ed Sandford - #30 Dick Irvin Sr. - #8 Jim Pappin

extras: #19 Reggie Fleming - #9 Charlie Burns

#2 Doug Harvey - #4 Hap Day (a)
#15 Jim Neilson - #17 Jan Suchý
#14 Graham Drinkwater - #3 Red Dutton

extras: #51 Gilles Marotte

#31 Grant Fuhr
#1 Dave Kerr


VS.


Minnesota Fighting Saints
Saintplayer_blue.png


GM: Nalyd Psycho
Coach: Pat Quinn
Assistant Coach: Jaroslav Pitner
Captain: Scott Stevens
Alternate Captain: Bob Gainey
Alternate Captain: Hod Stuart

#7 Doug Bentley-#19 Joe Thornton-#68 Jaromir Jagr
#23 Bob Gainey-#12 Mickey MacKay-#17 Jack Darragh
#16 Gaye Stewart-#11 Frank McGee-#9 Tod Sloan
#8 Rusty Crawford-#25 Orland Kurtenbach-#22 Stan Smyl

#4 Scott Stevens-#44 Cyclone Taylor
#2 Hod Stuart-#52 Adam Foote
#77 Gennady Tsygankov-#3 Joe Hall

#31 Ed Giacomin
#1 Hap Holmes

Spares:
#55 Jack Laviolette
#23 Bobby Rowe​
 

Sturminator

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I had wondered when the showdown would come between myself and the GM who showed me the ropes in this thing, and now we finally have it. Much respect to you, Nalyd, you were an excellent mentor and this version of the Fighting Saints is well-conceived. Ok, enough with the niceties.
 

Nalyd Psycho

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Yes, this is a match-up I've looked forward to since ATD #9. As I said in the last round, there'd be no shame in defeat here, but it would be an honour to win.

And with pleasantries aside...

 

Nalyd Psycho

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I guess I'll start with a little strategy.

Two roster changes:

1. Hap Holmes is starting

2. The 4th line will be:
Laviolette-Crawford-Smyl

And Orland Kurtenbach added as a spare.

There's no one on Boston that Kurtenbach needs to keep in line. And the North-South speed and flair should improve my forecheck and offensive depth. It hurts my toughness, but, my edge there should be undisputed anyway.

When on the road:

-The number one priority on the road is to hurt the Boston Bruins. Make Boston Gardens (I hope you don't have your team playing in the Fleet Center.) a place where the Boston Bruins fear to play. Without the ability to get match-ups, we are in a bad situation. Jagr vs Harvey isn't something I like. But, a defence of Stevens, Stuart, Foote and Hall against a forward corps where John Leclair is a tough guy is a match-up I can always make work. I will risk penalties. I will risk losing. I will put the fear of Saint in the Boston Bruins.

-I will be playing Stevens and Taylor with Jagr on the road. As I said, Jagr vs Harvey is going to be a tough battle and getting Taylor involved is the best way to mitigate the effect of Harvey. And, I know Sturm like 1st line vs 1st line match-ups, so, this gives me the Stevens vs Cook match-up I like.

When at home:

-A lot more caution as far as penalties go. In Minnesota, we have the momentum, we have the crowd, it's Boston's job to take it, and they don't have the ability to corrupt home ice like the Fighting Saints do. So we can play a more control oriented game.

-Stevens and Taylor will be paired with the MacKay line.This gives me two match-ups I like. 1. Gainey and Stevens vs Cook. Cook is the Bruins' biggest offensive threat. Gainey/Stevens is about as good as it gets for neutralizing a right winger. And MacKay/Taylor vs Nighbor, which, I just find fun for some reason.

-Then I'll be mixing it up a bit. I want the Jagr line against either the Stastny line, were Jagr and Thornton's cycle game will, more often than not, be a case of the best defence is a good offence. and the Irvin line because it's the weakest. But, I also want the McGee line against Stastny to soften Stastny and Martinec up a bit. But, the same holds true for the McKenney line. I particularly like McKenney vs McGee as McGee is notably ruthless while McKenney is a touch soft. Mostly, I'll use McGee against Stastny when Boston uses Harvey with Stastny, because, on home ice, I want to limit Harvey's play against Jagr. I will be matching Stuart and Foote against the Stastny line.

-The 4th line will be against Boston's 3rd and 4th lines and be all about pressure and momentum.
 

Nalyd Psycho

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Oh yeah, the most important part:

Elimination game on the road:

For my plan this is game seven, but, if I get behind the 8 ball and have to win game 5, this is the plan.

-This where I try to make the physical game pay off. Play a very fast and physical, but clean game. Gainey, McGee and Crawford will be playing a big role here. Particularly Gainey who I will often put out against Harvey. Harvey is the one guy who can slow the pace down, but, Gainey is the one guy who can effectively forecheck Harvey.

-So, hopefully, after 6 games of pounding on Boston, the war of attrition will favour Minnesota.Keep the game moving faster than the battered Bruins can keep up with and force them to make mistakes.

-Darragh will also be a key player as he can skate and forecheck and backcheck effectively, but, most importantly. He's a big game scorer. He's at his best when the series is on the line. Darragh, Gainey and Stevens probably have the best big game records of anyone in this series. And it is in elimination games where that will be the deciding factor.
 

Sturminator

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Hmmm...my opponent seems to have started off with some fairly wild claims. So be it. The series as I see it:

- Intangibles:

The Bruins enjoy both home ice and rest in this series. Boston had a 1st round bye and cruised through the 2nd round in 5 games. Minnesota has played two rounds thus far, and is coming off a seven game war that went into triple overtime in game 7. Nalyd wants his team to play a physical game on the road, but how much energy will they have, especially in games 1 and 2 in Boston?

- Coaching:

Obvious and large advantage to Boston. Arbour vs. Quinn tactically is about as big a mismatch as you're likely to see in the ATD. With home ice to his advantage, Arbour will be able to largely dictate the matchups against the overmatched Quinn.

- Goaltending:

Another obvious area in which Boston is superior. I have a lot of respect for Holmes. He has a good big game record, and I think that the upper end of how good he might have been is in Grant Fuhr territory. But with Fuhr we have a known commodity, and with Holmes we have a lot of maybes. Unless you assume Holmes' absolute top end to be his actual skill level and you never actually saw Grant Fuhr play, goaltending is clearly an area of strength for Boston in this series.

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Clearly, the Bruins have a lot going for them before we even begin to discuss the skaters. So what do we make of the matchup of the skaters? Minnesota is not going to win by playing a skill game; Nalyd seems to understand that implicitly and has thus chosen to focus on what he perceives to be a physicality advantage, with a little hyperbole (c'mon..."corrupting home ice"?!) thrown in for good measure. We'll talk about the teams from a skill perspective later, but physicality should be addressed first and foremost.

Just how physical are the Fighting Saints? Considerably less so than Nalyd has made them out to be. The top line of Bentley - Thornton - Jagr has no teeth to it, whatsoever, and the second line depends entirely on Bob Gainey for it's physicality. Mickey MacKay, although a great player, was known as "The Wee Scot" for a reason (he was tiny), and Jack Darragh (although a great skater) was of average size with no reputation for physicality or two-way play. Pelletier actually calls Darragh "one of the cleanest players of his era" here. Nalyd's claim that Darragh's fore and backchecking are important to his strategy is interesting considering that Darragh isn't special in either area of the game. One has to wonder about a strategy that depends on a guy like Darragh for the dirty work. On the scoring lines, which will eat up the lion's share of the icetime at forward for the Fighting Saints (if Nalyd has any sense...though he's welcome to give his bottom lines more TOI if he likes), only Bob Gainey brings any kind of physical aggression. Among the other five players, Bentley and MacKay are probably the two smallest skaters in the series, Darragh was a softie, Thornton is incapable of playing with an edge and Jagr is mostly good for a cheap roughing penalty now and again.

Boston's scoringlines are actually much bigger and stronger, with only Vladimir Martinec even remotely vulnerable to the physical game, and he had a reputation for being able to take a lot of physical punishment. As Pelletier says:

Few players were treated more brutally than Martinec. This small (5'9" and 178 Ibs) right wing somehow always seemed to bounce back totally undisturbed and more often than not with a smile on his face. His constant smile was a sort of a trademark and frustrated his opponents even more. A lot of reporters used to ask him why he always was smiling, even after a vicious crosscheck in the back. He said that he did it because he enjoyed the game so much and always had fun.

Doesn't sound like a guy who is easily bullied to me. Cook and Leclair speak for themselves. It should also be noted that Alex Delvecchio was a big man for the O6 era (about 6'0" 200 lbs.) and missed approximately 2.37 games in his very long career. Nighbor was average in size, but again is a player who stayed quite healthy for a long time - and this in the most brutal era in hockey history. Peter Stastny's strength and chippiness are clear enough to anyone who saw him play. The guy took a lot of abuse as the first eastern block player to come to the NHL, and never backed down from any of it or let it affect his play. Exactly who among Boston's scoring forwards does Nalyd think he can intimidate?

On the bottom lines, things look better for the Fightins, with McGee, Sloan and Crawford bringing solid physical games, but these are not over-the-top dominant physical players, by any means, nor do they hold a notable advantage over their bottom line physical counterparts on the Bruins: Parise, Pappin and Sandford. All-in-all, the Bruins actually have the tougher group of forwards, especially on the scoringlines.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So where does that leave us...comparing bluelines, I guess. The Fighting Saints have two notable bullies on their blueline in Stevens and Hall, which is interesting because so do the Bruins in Harvey and Dutton. Both Hall and Dutton are also the team's designated enforcers and both are quite accomplished pugilists. Red Dutton is pretty clearly the better hockey player, but in terms of physicality and fighting ability, they are about equal. This is an important departure from last series for Minnesota, when they faced a team whose toughest fighter was Adam Graves. Boston has a sheriff, and quite a good one, at that.

Stevens has a fearsome reputation, but then again, so does Doug Harvey. Harvey's nastiness is a little less well-known to modern fans, partially because he was sneaky and drew few penalties, but Doug was a brutal hockey player who was willing to resort to quite dirty tactics to get his point across - his most famous targets being Gordie Howe's ribs and Red Sullivan's spleen (which nearly killed Sullivan, who was given last rites while laying on the ice). As much of a hitter as Stevens is, no one has been given last rites because of anything he's done on the ice. Initiating physicality against Harvey is extremely dangerous coming from a team that will send guys like MacKay and Bentley regularly into the zone against him. But that is Nalyd's prerogative if he wants to play that game.

Beyond that, both bluelines feature a couple of secondary physical players in Stuart/Foote and Day/Neilson. Hod Stuart was quite a big man, and was known as a tough hitter, but he was also a clean player - quite a bit like Jim Neilson, actually. Like Stuart, Neilson was huge for his era (6'2" 205 lbs was a giant in the O6 era), and quite capable of taking the body, though he didn't really play to hurt his opponents. Give Stuart a slight edge in physicality here, but really it's pretty close. Foote and Day is an interesting comparison. Both guys were rather notorious for playing clutch and grab hockey, and both were very good at getting away with it. Foote could be a bit dirty, but he was never a huge hitter, while Day was one of the best hitters of the Eddie Shore era, which is saying something. Pelletier says about Day:

Day was a strong and fearless player...

Defensively he was a genius. He was a masterful stick checker and positional player, and, along with the New York Rangers Ching Johnson, was the league's top body checker. Day was very well respected around the league, even though he employed a clutch and grab style of hockey he would later popularize as a coach, becoming a league power by using the rule-bending tactic.

Although I respect Adam Foote's toughness, I don't think anyone in their right mind would compare him to Ching Johnson with a straight face. The two are similar, but Day clearly wins the comparison here. Overall, The bluelines actually look quite even from a physical perspective. Nalyd is probably counting on a modern bias in favor of Stevens and Foote for his perceived advantage here, because the truth of the matter is that there is very little to seperate the defenses physically.

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Exactly where is the physical advantage Nalyd is trying to push in this series? It's not at all clear to me which is the more physical team in this matchup. With Kurtenbach on the bench, the level of aggression is nearly identical between the two teams, and the Bruins have a clear size/strength/toughness advantage among the top-6 forwards. As is typical of my teams, these Bruins aren't designed to play caveman hockey, but they can certainly withstand it, and are among the healthiest teams in the league. If Nalyd wants to win this series by "hurting" the Bruins, he's hanging onto a very thin reed.
 

Nalyd Psycho

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I'm tired and drunk. So, this is the best I can counter with.

1. Fuhr at his best was better, but Holmes has much better consistency over his career. Using Holmes' era as an argument violates the spirit of the ATD. Both goalies were great clutch goalies, the difference is very small.

2. Red Dutton is not better than Joe Hall. Maybe a better stay at home d-man, but Hall was much better offensively.

3. If Harvey plays dirty, that works in my favour. I want him taking penalties. The more the merrier. In fact, goading him into stupid penalties is a damn fine idea. And if he gets out of line then Kurtenbach will be back in the line-up to mash his face into a pulp.

4. You say guys like Nighbor, Delvecchio and Martinec had long injury light careers and that makes them immune to physical intimidation, then say Bentley and MacKay, who also had long injury light careers, are vulnerable. Which is it?

5. Playing a long series last round also means we'll be in warrior mode from the outset, while your team will be more relaxed.

6. You brush over your weak bottom 6 as though it won't hurt your team if I batter them. I will gladly take runs at your third line. The extra ice time your top 6 has to play will help my war of attrition and you have to role 4 lines anyway. So, cutting you off at the knees will help me win. Your 3rd line is soft as silk and in for a world of hurt.

7. We established in the 1st round that Frank McGee was the most dominant player of his era. And now you are once again spouting hogwash about him not being dominant. McGee was a dominant player. And Gaye Stewart has a goal scoring title. The difference in 3rd line quality is the deal breaker in this series. Mine is A LOT better.
 

Sturminator

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We established in the 1st round that Frank McGee was the most dominant player of his era. And now you are once again spouting hogwash about him not being dominant. McGee was a dominant player. And Gaye Stewart has a goal scoring title. The difference in 3rd line quality is the deal breaker in this series. Mine is A LOT better.

You obviously are drunk, as we "established" nothing of the sort. I would put McGee third behind Phillips and Stuart in what was a very shallow era. His career spans four seasons. You do the math. Interesting that 3rd lines (even in theory) could be a dealbreaker, considering how far behind you are on the scoringlines, in goal, behind the bench, etc. On the topic of centers, here are some top-20 career numbers (top-10 bolded) for three centers (post 1926 consolidation) who are all skating on still active teams in the ATD:

Center A:

Points: 8th (73-74), 18th (74-75), 9th (75-76), 8th (76-77), 3rd (77-78), 12th (78-79), 9th (79-80), 15th (80-81),
Goals: 9th (73-74), 16th (74-75), 12th (75-76), 8th (76-77), 6th (77-78), 15th (78-79), 18th (79-80), 14th (80-81), 17th (82-83),
Assists: 15th (73-74), 11th (75-76), 14th (76-77), 2nd (77-78), 15th (78-79), 8th (79-80), 19th (80-81),

Center B:

Points: 17th (54-55), 7th (56-57), 10th (57-58), 8th (58-59), 8th (59-60), 16th (61-62), 15th (62-63),
Goals: 10th (54-55), 12th (56-57), 7th (57-58), 6th (58-59), 17th (59-60), 10th (60-61), 15th (61-62), 17th (62-63),
Assists: 6th (56-57), 18th (57-58), 19th (58-59), 1st (59-60), 16th (61-62), 12th (62-63),

Center C:

Points: 16th (87-88), 18th (88-89), 8th (89-90), 15th (91-92), 2nd (92-93), 17th (95-96),
Goals: 18th (86-87), 12th (87-88), 11th (89-90), 5th (89-90), 13th (90-90), 5th (91-92), 11th (92-93),
Assists: 2nd (92-93),

One guy is currently playing on a 1st line, one guy on a 2nd line and one guy on a 3rd line. See if you can pick the players without cheating. I imagine that quite a few of you can.

Player A is Darryl Sittler, Player B is Don McKenney and Player C is Pat Lafontaine. My, my - did McKenney have a better career than Lafontaine? McKenney's career numbers are actually remarkably similar to Sittler's, and easily better than Lafontaine's. Don McKenney was a top-10 scorer 4 times in the O6 era on an awful Bruins team, and backed that up with outstanding playoff performances (he and Fleming Mackell really led those Bruins in the postseason). Frank McGee's entire career spans 4 seasons. Calling him the equal of McKenney is generous. The claim that he'll dominate the matchup is ridiculous.

McGee's career is actually less impressive than that of the left wing on Boston's 3rd line, Harry Hyland, who over a similar 4 year timespan (though he had a much longer career), outscored both Malone and Lalonde, both of whom were at their respective peaks. Was Frank McGee better than Malone and Lalonde? That would be an extremely generous assumption. If the 3rd lines match up, Hyland will skate against Rusty Crawford, who is more physical, but so far behind in skill there is hardly grounds for comparison. The only way Minnesota wins this matchup is if Crawford murders the refs before the puck is dropped.

4. You say guys like Nighbor, Delvecchio and Martinec had long injury light careers and that makes them immune to physical intimidation, then say Bentley and MacKay, who also had long injury light careers, are vulnerable. Which is it?

You're the one who started this nonsense about "hurting" the Bruins and "corrupting home ice", which I find quite odd considering the teams are equally physical. "Warrior mode" only works in video games. At any rate, your question is disingenuous for a variety of reasons. First, you completely ignore size. Second, you seem to be ignoring the fact that MacKay's best years were spent in the soft western leagues while Nighbor's reputation was made skating against guys like Lalonde, Cleghorn, Broadbent, etc. Finally, you ignore the specific evidence I offered that Martinec was up to the physical challenge. Do you have anything like that on MacKay and Bentley?

1. Fuhr at his best was better, but Holmes has much better consistency over his career. Using Holmes' era as an argument violates the spirit of the ATD. Both goalies were great clutch goalies, the difference is very small.

This seems to be a basically ad-hominem argument, which is the only kind of argument you can make here because the exact problem with Holmes is that we have very little evidence of his greatness. His teams were quite successful, and we often judge goalies by that metric, but with Holmes we really don't know where he falls in the spectrum. He could be Grant Fuhr, or he could be Chris Osgood. In terms of his overall value, the most responsible assumption is that he falls somewhere in the middle. Putting him close to Fuhr's value is a very generous assumption, a tactic you seem to be using quite a lot with these old-time players.

2. Red Dutton is not better than Joe Hall. Maybe a better stay at home d-man, but Hall was much better offensively.

Red Dutton was top-5 in Hart voting twice in his NHL career, which actually doesn't count a good 3-4 years of his prime spent playing out west (where he was twice a 1st team all-star). There is no indication that Joe Hall was ever considered one of the 5 best or most valuable players in the league. Both are hall of famers, so that argument is moot, but there is simply more verifiable proof of Dutton's greatness. Sorry.

3. If Harvey plays dirty, that works in my favour. I want him taking penalties. The more the merrier. In fact, goading him into stupid penalties is a damn fine idea. And if he gets out of line then Kurtenbach will be back in the line-up to mash his face into a pulp.

Harvey was penalized lightly throughout his career for a guy who played about 30 minutes/night - coming in at just a bit above 1 PIM/game in the regular season and playoffs. It was this lightly penalized player who nearly killed Red Sullivan and gave Gordie Howe perhaps the only serious injury of his career. Harvey doesn't have to play out of control to do damage - he was extremely sneaky in how he went about his business. It was, after all, Harvey's spears that prompted Andy Bathgate to ghostwrite that column. With the possible exception of players trying to cross the blueline with their heads down, there is no question that Harvey is more dangerous than Stevens, who was rarely, if ever, truly dirty.

I also wonder...at what point were Pat Quinn's teams ever physical or dirty? You seem to want caveman hockey, but you have a coach who did his best work with figure skaters. Mike Keenan might get that kind of performance out of the Fightins, but Pat Quinn?!
 

seventieslord

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So great to see that discussion has picked up here. And it's a good one. For whatever reason, I find it easier to pipe in on things that I don't fully agree with instead of the other way around.

Every time I see Nalyd say something that can be discredited, I look down and Sturm's already done it. So I have nothing to say about Nalyd's arguments.

But, a couple notes about what Sturm has said:

I would put McGee third behind Phillips and Stuart in what was a very shallow era.

Well, thanks for the props on Phillips... but what about Bowie?

This seems to be a basically ad-hominem argument, which is the only kind of argument you can make here because the exact problem with Holmes is that we have very little evidence of his greatness. His teams were quite successful, and we often judge goalies by that metric, but with Holmes we really don't know where he falls in the spectrum. He could be Grant Fuhr, or he could be Chris Osgood. In terms of his overall value, the most responsible assumption is that he falls somewhere in the middle. Putting him close to Fuhr's value is a very generous assumption, a tactic you seem to be using quite a lot with these old-time players.

I totally see what you're saying here.

But Holmes jumped all over the place, and kept winning the cup everywhere he went. That has to count for something. Fuhr and Osgood enjoyed the vast majority of their team success in one city, so this analogy applies to them; I'm just not sure it applies to Holmes.

Red Dutton was top-5 in Hart voting twice in his NHL career, which actually doesn't count a good 3-4 years of his prime spent playing out west (where he was twice a 1st team all-star). There is no indication that Joe Hall was ever considered one of the 5 best or most valuable players in the league. Both are hall of famers, so that argument is moot, but there is simply more verifiable proof of Dutton's greatness. Sorry.

Dutton's hart voting record is impressive and it helps to explain how he got into the Hall. I really think he should be selected a lot sooner than he is.... but I think that about Hall, too. Hall has an offensive edge, a toughness edge, and in his own zone was regarded as one of the finest defensemen of his time. He also to my recollection did not have a skating issue.

As for their offensive records, I have Dutton as placing 2nd, 3rd, 2nd in the WCHL/WHL among defensemen and 7th, 8th, 8th, 8th in the merged NHL. Hall was 2nd, 5th, 4th, 6th, 5th, 3rd in the NHA/NHL. In a system similar to my "consistency in goalscoring/playmaking" threads I simulated a merger for seasons prior to 1926 and came out with something like this:

Hall: 3, 5, 7, 8, 8, 10.
Dutton: 6, 7, 7, 8, 8, 10.

Same number of seasons spent as a top-10 offensive blueliner. Higher peak for Hall. I admit the edge isn't as much as I thought it would be.

I would take Hall over Dutton. Two times the top blueliner on a cup winner is as good as two times top-5 in Hart voting.

It was this lightly penalized player who nearly killed Red Sullivan and gave Gordie Howe perhaps the only serious injury of his career.

Orly? I always thought that happened in the 1950 playoffs against the Leafs.
 

Nalyd Psycho

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You obviously are drunk, as we "established" nothing of the sort. I would put McGee third behind Phillips and Stuart in what was a very shallow era. His career spans four seasons. You do the math.

In an era where top players played 50+ minutes a night. McGee was the difference between dynasty and non-contender. Bowie, Phillips and Stuart both could not lead a team past McGee. Greatness is winning. McGee won. You can argue that his career was short and that handicapps him. But, for 4 years, McGee was the most dominant player in the game. And the Stanley Cup is all the proof that is needed.
 

Sturminator

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But that's the thing, using remotely modern refs and spearing gets you a couple of games.

Only if they see it. Peter Forsberg was also a master of the sneaky spear.

Even before the spearing rules, openly hitting someone with your stick was always illegal. Had Harvey been obvious about it, he'd have at least drawn a lot of minor penalties, which clearly wasn't happening.

The "using remotely modern refs" argument from a team that ices Adam Foote is also a little amusing, I must add. There are likely no two players who profited more from "clutch and grab" era refing than Forsberg and Foote, which is precisely why I hated the Avs during their heyday (well, that and Forsberg's hypocritical crying).
 

Nalyd Psycho

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The "using remotely modern refs" argument from a team that ices Adam Foote is also a little amusing, I must add. There are likely no two players who profited more from "clutch and grab" era refing than Forsberg and Foote, which is precisely why I hated the Avs during their heyday (well, that and Forsberg's hypocritical crying).

Except that the dead puck era is remotely modern...
 

Dreakmur

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This seems to be a basically ad-hominem argument, which is the only kind of argument you can make here because the exact problem with Holmes is that we have very little evidence of his greatness. His teams were quite successful, and we often judge goalies by that metric, but with Holmes we really don't know where he falls in the spectrum. He could be Grant Fuhr, or he could be Chris Osgood. In terms of his overall value, the most responsible assumption is that he falls somewhere in the middle. Putting him close to Fuhr's value is a very generous assumption, a tactic you seem to be using quite a lot with these old-time players.

What evidence would you like?

Holmes is a 7 time Stanley Cup Finalist and 4 time winner. All 4 of his Cup wins came with different teams, so obviously he was never on an Oiler-like dynasty.

He's got a retro Hart and 6 retro Vezinas. He's an 8 x PCHA all-star.
 

Sturminator

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What evidence would you like?

Holmes is a 7 time Stanley Cup Finalist and 4 time winner. All 4 of his Cup wins came with different teams, so obviously he was never on an Oiler-like dynasty.

He's got a retro Hart and 6 retro Vezinas. He's an 8 x PCHA all-star.

Uncritical lists of Ultimate Hockey retro awards are a highly devalued currency on this forum. Holmes is a person of interest because he has been undervalued here and could still be (pending more hard information), but you're going to need to tell us something we didn't already know if you want to change the perception of this player.
 

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